Need advice on tackling re-build on arch

[vtwoody]

Hey all, I have a friend who bought a house that came with a sugaring arch. He doesn't sugar and offered it to me to get it out. checked it out a bit today - it's a "Lightening" model (I believe Small Bros.?) wood fired with two pans. Back pan has drop flue (30" X 7') and a tag on the float box(?) that says small bros.. Has two elbows out (one on each side) to feed front pan. Front pan is 30" X 3', has a tag from Leader identified as being the syrup pan for a lightening arch. this pan has a manual drain off on each side in the front but, oddly enough, no openings in back to allow input from the flue pan...

Anyways, have looked it over after doing MUCH research on this site on what to look for (THANK YOU!!!). At first glance, it looked to be a basket case but further looking at it, it seems not too bad. Flue end of it has some rusted through sheet metal and the two cast firebox doors both have cracks (one partially repaired and will need some work. Interior of firebox is all bricklined (firebrick) and the grates are straight and seem to be in good shape.

The pans have a fair amount of corrosion/rust on outsides. There's a bunch of stuff piled on top so interior was harder to assess but the little peeking I could do showed it to have a fair amount of "residue", but likely not rust, or at least very little.

So, I can get the arch for free, have the resources to transport it and I'm getting ready to build a house on 4 acres of prime sugaring woods, surrounded by supportive neighbors with lots more maples and several that want to get involved....

My biggest concerns, at this point, are:

1) what are the chances of re-habbing these pans (sand-blasting, etc) to re-use

2) If I only boil on,say, weekends, and get the storage to gather sap all week, can I reasonably assume that I could use this arch for 100 taps to start or would I have way too much arch capacity to make it worth my while...if so, how many taps, minimum, to make it worth my (our) time (keeping in mind that I would likely put in a lot of storage)?

Thanks for any comments - really looking forward to taking the next step up from 6 taps and a foil turkey pan on the barbecue grill.....

[Flat47]

Pictures are almost a "must" for this kind of thing, and a few more details are needed:
- pans stainless or tin?

Replacing the sheet metal on the arch is no big deal. It's just sheet metal, fairly stout gauge.
A 2.5'x10' rig will boil a LOT of sap. An old Leader book I have states 250 to 400 taps for a 6' flue pan (based on 124 sq. ft. of heating surface area and a 9 hour boiling day). So your's will boil at least that.

Small Brothers made a couple of different styles of pans. Some had the hot sap inlet entering the front pan at the rear of the front pan, right near the flue pan. Others had a long pipe bringing hot sap to the inlet at the front of the front pan. I'm more familiar with their raised flue rigs, so this may be useless info. But I'm fairly certain that the inlet for the hot sap was on the side of the drawoff box, not the bottom. If someone was mixing brands (Small Bros and Leader) then there is the chance that they plumbed a valve into a tee at the draw off on each side to allow for reversing flow. Like I said, pictures would really help.

Lastly, welcome to the 'Trader and nice score getting yourself an evaporator. I'm jealous.

[vtwoody]

Hopefully it will be a nice score and function and not be a time and money pit (as my wife suspects, lol). Took a closer look at it this afternoon after posting and it seems to be in better shape than my first inspection. Biggest issues remain cracked firebox doors and rusted out tin around exhaust, as well "crusty" pans. However, after manhandling some of the stuff piled on top of the pans, and clearing out some mouse nest material, I discovered the interior of the pans to be in relatively good shape. Hoping that a good cleaner and scrub will do wonders....front (leader) pan was, apparently, made for this rig, according to tag - will investigate your thought on the drawoff box doubling as an input....

Have some pics but not up on a website yet to share - will do so.

I'm hoping that the capacity of this rig to boil will minimize my time spent boiling (planning on getting a fair amount of storage) as sugaring season overlaps with prime alpine ski season quite substantially....if all goes well, I'll add more taps and take the shift that starts after the lifts close....

Thanks for input, especially regarding potential pan-to-pan connection. This has been very helpful, as has the whole forum here. I'm looking forward to popping one town over to bend the ear of Tim and the folks at the Proctor Maple Research Center. I guess I should take advantage of their knowledge since we are practically neighbors...

getting excited now!!!! (Even more than about building the house but I won't share that with the wife..yet)

[Flat47]

As for cleaning them, your best and safest option is to soak them in a potent vinegar mix overnight and then gently scrub. The pans may be soldered with lead/tin solder, so you should avoid any vigorous scrubbing of the solder itself to minimize leaching of the lead into the syrup. Even if the pans are new enough to be lead-free, it's a time saver to soak them.

Any of the the broken or cracked castings can be welded. Don't sweat that. Every evaporator I've run has had cracks somewhere in it, and they boiled just fine. Go for it. Get that rig and pick away at the work.

[northwoods_forestry]

Given your description, I would also suspect that the pans are not lead free. If you're planning on selling any syrup, you'd need to replace them.

[Sugarmaker]

vt woody,
Welcome to the trader! You have come to the right spot. Read my last paragraph first!
Wow! ( as mentioned we need some pictures to give you better advice on details)
Yes money pit comes to mind:)
This is a large size project. That rig can boil sap from several hundred taps easy. (maybe 700 max on gravity or buckets) Rate should be about 70 GPH in stock condition. This is a medium size rig to start out on. Boiling sap from 100 taps is going to happen quick! Like just get started good and you will be done. ( expect maybe 200 gallon of sap on buckets for 100 taps) so 200/70 = 3 hours of boiling might be your max boil time.
Arch can be rebuilt! I did a 3 x 10 King using stainless sides. Was a two summer project. Doors can be fixed or replaced.
Sounds like your pans are English tin, if they have some rust on them. You may want to check with your local maple inspector to see if there are any restrictions on syrup from lead soldered pans in your neck of the woods. Just because they may be lead soldered may not mean that you cannot make good low lead syrup. ( Lots of posts on this subject)
Building a sugar house may get in the way of building a house too:)
I do not want to discourage you in any way. So let us know your thoughts and plans. 10 years ago it was just a dream of mine and today its a nice hobby/ business. Plus you get to meet nice folks here on the trader too:)
Regards,
Chris

[vtwoody]

Curious - is it possible to "de-solder" pans with lead solder and re-do w/solder free or not?

[vtwoody]

hoping to maximize volume with a minimum of burn time as other mid/late winter pursuits will compete for boiling time....wood supply isn't a problem so I'm not afraid of a rig with a big appetite. Seems like since I have the trees and the rig (as-is) at no expense, I should be able to get a good return on initial investment (allowing me the capitol for a whole host of upgrades, of course....). Just bumped into a guy today who has access to food grade plastic 200 gallon tanks in metal cages/pallets...for $50/ea....I feel this is fate calling me, lol

If I can't use the pans due to lead issues (well aware of the thoughts on both sides of this - not interested in risking the lead exposure to me, my family or any one else) I may have to punt on this rig for at least a year and pehaps just sell sap to pay for new pans....and keep a little on the side to boil on the barbecue grill....

[Greenwich Maple Man]

Given your description, I would also suspect that the pans are not lead free. If you're planning on selling any syrup, you'd need to replace them.

Is the "new rule" no lead pans period? Just wondering even though my new pans are welded.

[rookie]

good luck, you will find that it is unbelievable addiction, that gets worse with time. Its crazy. Have fun

[wiam]

Curious - is it possible to "de-solder" pans with lead solder and re-do w/solder free or not?

Possible, but not real cost effective.

[Flat47]

Curious - is it possible to "de-solder" pans with lead solder and re-do w/solder free or not?

In short - No.
It'd be really REALLY tough to get all of the old solder off. You'd essentially be de-constructing your pans only to re-construct them. It's just not a plausible option.

Also, one thing to check that hasn't been said yet is the front of the flues. Drop flues are prone to being hit with wood. So, open the arch doors and see if they're dented or banged up. If they are, they may leak.

[vtwoody]

Possible, but not real cost effective.

If it's cheaper than buying a new pan it would be as I have $0 invested so far...have local guys who could likely do it. Guess I should ask them. :)

[Sugarmaker]

VT,
Maybe I missed it: are your pans stainless?
If they are english tine and have some age they may be canidates for replacement with newer pans.
Have you filled these pans with water yet and inspected Them for leaks?
If they are older stainless with lead solder then have your folks quote removing the solder and re-soldering then double the price, cause its not easy. Then get new pan costs and compare the two.
Keep us posted.
Regards,
Chris

[sugarmountain]

Good score on the arch! remember you can get creative and allways expand later. Do you have a budget? if replacing the pans are an option post an add and try and find some used ones (unless you want new). You also could make the rig shorter etc. to more balance the rig with your taps etc. and save a little money on replacement pans or pan depending on what you need to replace. Doors etc. try bascoms websight or call they have a good supply of used equipment and older cast parts. Anything is going to be a step up from your old set up so... even if you temporaraly set it up with a flat pan with some dividers at least you have the arch all fixed up and ready when your addiction takes you to the next level.:) gotta send pics, we all have had limited sugarin fixes since the big boiling demo at field days.

[vtwoody]

Good score on the arch! remember you can get creative and allways expand later. Do you have a budget? if replacing the pans are an option post an add and try and find some used ones (unless you want new). You also could make the rig shorter etc. to more balance the rig with your taps etc. and save a little money on replacement pans or pan depending on what you need to replace. Doors etc. try bascoms websight or call they have a good supply of used equipment and older cast parts. Anything is going to be a step up from your old set up so... even if you temporaraly set it up with a flat pan with some dividers at least you have the arch all fixed up and ready when your addiction takes you to the next level.:) gotta send pics, we all have had limited sugarin fixes since the big boiling demo at field days.

Still working on pictures, Still have hopes of making it work this year....LOT of work to do tho...then I still need to address pipeline, storage (have (1) 275 gal plastic tank), filtering....and, oh yeah, sugarhouse...lol...

[Sugarmaker]

VT,
Keep us posted and those pictures would really help us help you.
Regards,
Chris

[vtwoody]

Lets see if anyone can access these pics.....there's a bunch of c**p piled on top of the arch so it was hardto get pan intereior pics - were in better shape than I expected but look to need a lot of cleanup...still look solid but most likely lead solder... :(



http://oldarchphotos.shutterfly.com/pictures

[Flat47]

Lets see if anyone can access these pics.....there's a bunch of c**p piled on top of the arch so it was hardto get pan intereior pics - were in better shape than I expected but look to need a lot of cleanup...still look solid but most likely lead solder... :(



http://oldarchphotos.shutterfly.com/pictures


I'm usually the one to want to save or rebuild anything and everything. But, the pans are tin and fairly rough. Those arch doors are beyond welding, and the arch sides look to have patched over once already. I think I see some old iron pipe fittings in there, too (cold sap inlet, drawoff), that rust. That's a big project right there that even I would pass on, sorry to say.

To answer a question you had early on about the inlets to the syrup pan: the hot sap enters through the side of the front float box. As it sits in the pics, the syrup pan is turned around. It's actually a raised flue rear pan, not dropped flue, so it uses two floats, one large one on the flue pan and a smalled one on the syrup pan.

[vtwoody]

Well, at this point, it looks like I'll pass on this project, start small with a 2X4 and move up...anyone looking for a deal on a basket case 30" X 10', let me know as my friend wants it out of his place.....

[Bruce L]

If your friend wants to get rid of the set-up for free,why not clean it up for scrap metal?It may be small,but it is a start towards the purchase of a rig

[mtcrumpit]

don't scrap it. that would be a shame. maple projects are supposed to be fun, time consuming and expensive, at least that is what I find. There is always value in some of the pieces. someone somewhere is looking for the part you want to scrap. Bascoms has a bunch of the stuff we all look for. Although it may be a big project this year take the arch and work at it slowly. There is a guy in New Boston NH that will retin the arch. another option is to trade the parts towards a new/used rig. good luck and have fun

[vtwoody]

Tried connecting my friend with a couple folks who were interested...didn't pan out. now that I'm close to getting my 2X4 setup and envisioning the potential growth for my setup with taps around me, I'm having second thoughts...a year is a long time to have to work on a project.... ;)