cfm and vacuum pumps

[Maple Ridge Enterprises]

I have two Ingersoll Rand vacuum pumps model v255. They came from a bindry plant that is out of business now. They both work excellent but I am unsure on how many taps they are good for. On the website they are listed with a 2 hp motor and provide 21.60 cfm piston displacement, however they both have 5 hp motors on them. Does this mean they will handle around 4000 taps. Very unsure on all of this but I picked up the pumps at the right price. Thanks for your comments. Bill

[wiam]

Really need more info. Is the 21.6 cfm free air or at some level of vac? If they only need 2hp then 5hp motor will only use more electricity not make more vacum unless you crank up rpm (not recommended)

[Haynes Forest Products]

there is another chart and that is the one that shows the HGs in relation to the CFMs. I bet the 21.6 CFMs is at 5 HGs but the good news is the higher the vacuum you get in your system the less CFMs you need.

[Maple Ridge Enterprises]

29 HG and 21.60 piston displacement according to the chart. So what do you think as far as taps go using the 5hp ? Thanks in advance. Bill

[Haynes Forest Products]

29 hgs is great along with 21 CFMs will run alot of taps 3000 with be fine. Remember that with a tight system its the HGs over the CFMs. Now your releaser will need the CFMs to overcome suck back/surge during dumps.

[wiam]

29 HG and 21.60 piston displacement according to the chart. So what do you think as far as taps go using the 5hp ? Thanks in advance. Bill

Sounds like I would give it a try.

[Maple Ridge Enterprises]

I have a bernard double horizontal releaser I picked up last year. really to big for now but we will be expanding to between 8000-10000 taps within 5 yrs . Thats the goal anyway.. I hope to be at 3500 this year. Do you think theses pumps wil do it? Thanks again Bill

[3rdgen.maple]

I have two Ingersoll Rand vacuum pumps model v255. They came from a bindry plant that is out of business now. They both work excellent but I am unsure on how many taps they are good for. On the website they are listed with a 2 hp motor and provide 21.60 cfm piston displacement, however they both have 5 hp motors on them. Does this mean they will handle around 4000 taps. Very unsure on all of this but I picked up the pumps at the right price. Thanks for your comments. Bill

http://www.ingersollrandproducts.com/air/catalogs/Small%20Recip%20ESA%20Family%20Brochure_A4.pdf
They are calling for a 5.5 hp motor, the ppm/piston per minute is 1730 with an rpm of 770. So what that tells me is with dual pistons running a motor pulley ratio to get 770 rpms will put 1730 piston strokes combined. This is something that you need to keep as close as possible. A little low wont harm the pump but throwing to many rpms on a piston pump will grenade it. That setup is rated at 29 hg's. at 21.6 cfms I think each pump could handle 2000 taps on a tight system. To better your odds vac boosters(I know Haynes) and a wet dry line setup. They could do more Im guessing but recovery time might effect sap yield. But any vac is better than no vac, I say go for it if the price is right but check them over good, I would even go as far as pulling the head off and checking the cylinder wall for scouring, most printshop/bindary houses neglect there equipment. These pumps probably have alot of hours on them they very well could have been running 2shifts for 5 days a week, but the good thing is that bindary equipment doesnt pull constant vac they run constant but the vac setup on the equipment is in constant on and off cycles Im talking up to 10,000 times and hour or more. If they make you money you can always upgrade. Just my opinion on the deal but I think you could handle those 4000 taps with those pumps. Personally I would tear them down and go through them before they went into production thats alot of taps to be sitting on a broken down pump in prime time.

[Maple Ridge Enterprises]

Thats a great idea and I appreciate all the input from this site. We just got started in this adventure last season. My 83 yr old Grandfather, my father, myself, my wife, son and daughter as well. Hoping to build it into a retirement and having a blast doing it. Thanks again everyone Bill

[Haynes Forest Products]

In the Dental business we used vacuum in all the porcelain furnaces and investment casting machines. High vacuum was a must and if we could have put a vacuum reservoir in the line and BOOST the HGs we would have done it.....................but sadly it wasn't possible:mad:

[Brent]

I think the specs from Ingersoll Rand are at best inadequate in that they do not state the pressure that they rate the pump at. If you look at the specs for the same head (55V 5.5 Hp) on a compressor, it is rated at 18.5 CFM, and there they also do not give the pressure of that rating. They do say the max pressure is 14 bars ( about 200 psi )

The Devair catalog shows their 5 Hp unit outputs 19.8 cfm at 150 psi so you can be pretty sure the rating of the Ingersoll Rand is not a max on compressor or the vac pump.

That said, 5 Hp will make a lot of vac, especially if you have 2 of them.

[lastwoodsman]

What do you fellas think of using this vacuum pump to run 50/100 taps?
I think it should work but you guys are the experts. Looks to small to do much to me.
Any input is appreciated.
Thanks
Woodsman

[Brent]

What do you fellas think of using this vacuum pump to run 50/100 taps?
I think it should work but you guys are the experts. Looks to small to do much to me.
Any input is appreciated.
Thanks
Woodsman

Only 1/12 Hp. You won't get much out of that. I would think you need at least 1/4 Hp, and even that won't be great even on a tight system.

1/12 Hp would still be a lot better than a gravity system though.

Watch Ebay. You should be able to get a dry vane type pump there that will be simple and effective.

[Maple Ridge Enterprises]

Thanks again I believe they will work ok but can you run two vacuums on the same line ? Or will the pumps pull against each other? how would you pipe them up ? Bill

[lastwoodsman]

Thanks Brent
I agree --will keep looking for a dry vane of a larger HP.
Woodsman

[Brent]

They will only fight the vacuum .... which is what they are supposed to do anyway.

This last season I had 2 of the GAST 3/4 Hp dry vane pumps running. In the 2010 season with only 1 on the line I got 20 to 20.5" of vac. This year with 2 of them I only got 21". Virtually no gain. I think what I ran into was the low efficiency of this style pump when the get up near 20". But they did a pretty good job. No oil, no maintenance. All this on about 500 taps with 3 releasers and the system was poorly maintained in the bush during the run.
( hernia :()

[Haynes Forest Products]

Brent I disagree with the statement that the dry vane style pumps are low in efficiency. I have one that is a 1/4 HP and I ran it into a Zero tank collecting on 200 taps and was pulling over 24 HGs. I had a small vacuum release /regulator and all went well until I decides to forgo the vacuum regulator and with iced up lines I sucked the tank into a useless piece of scrap metal. I believe the guage was showing around 26 HGs when I left to check lines. When I came back YIKES.

[Haynes Forest Products]

Lastwoods I dont think that pump is the one you want. Its a piston type and I believe they take more HPs to get high vacuum. Go for the vane type.

[lastwoodsman]

Thanks Haynes
Would a 1/2 hp vane type be adequate for 150-200 taps? I thing I will buy one of the small mechanical releasers.
Terry

[Brent]

Brent I disagree with the statement that the dry vane style pumps are low in efficiency. I have one that is a 1/4 HP and I ran it into a Zero tank collecting on 200 taps and was pulling over 24 HGs. I had a small vacuum release /regulator and all went well until I decides to forgo the vacuum regulator and with iced up lines I sucked the tank into a useless piece of scrap metal. I believe the guage was showing around 26 HGs when I left to check lines. When I came back YIKES.

What I said was that I don't think they're very good over 20" Both my pumps will pull about 26" with the lines blocked off. But my impression is that over
20" they move very small volume, meaning you need a religiously tight system
to get over 20", which admittedly, I did not have last year.

[Haynes Forest Products]

Lastwoods I would do the 1/2HP for that number of taps. I'm retiring the beast with a 1HP Gast vane pump this coming season. Im tired of the gas and having to baby sit it during the day.

[maple flats]

Haynes Forest Products, you bash the term vacuum booster but in reality it does boost. It increases to vac over what it would be without the booster while there is an interruption in vac such as during a releaser dump cycle.

[lastwoodsman]

Haynes:
I will keep my eyes ope for a 1/2 hp vane pump. There are so many on e-bay and the internet it is hard to discern what to buy.
How many cfm's? Atikinson Maples says this---RULE OF THUMB: Choose a vacuum pump with a minimum capacity of 1 CFM per 100 spiles. Choose 1 CFM per 50 spiles if possible
So I would do well with a 4-6 cfm rotary vane pump?

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000JFNAJE?&tag=shopwiki-us-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=9325


Woodsman

[Haynes Forest Products]

Maple Flats I'm not bashing anything I'm disputing the terms being used and foisted upon you. Tell me how in plain terms for my feable old mind how you can create higher vacuum simply by having a tank out in the woods.
I understand that having a vacuum tank/reservoir out in the woods will help MAINTAIN current vacuum levels but will it boost it up higher than the vacuum created at the pump NO. Will it help smooth out vacuum surges out in the bush YES. Will it help YES.

When I'm doing construction and have air tools I hate the sound of a compressor running off and on so I locate my comp. outside and run the airline into the house and hook a remote air tank in the work area. It doesn't boost a dang thing but it does keep the supply more consistent and helps with the surges and VOLUME.

So lets call a tank that you put out in the bush a Volume booster..................OH wait boosting volume denotes greater mass and vacuum is the absence of something. What Im trying to say is the term boost makes it sound like your INCREASING the HG's and your not. So I will go back to calling it a vacuum reservoir until I'm proven wrong. By now you know with new traders coming on line everyday its important that we stick to the right terms when describing all things maple. Like calling a evaporator a boiler.

[lastwoodsman]

Please not in front of the children! Let me buy you fellas a drink.

Lets talk about me it'll take your minds off the subject.

I almost know everything but unfortunately I missed the chapter in life on vacuum pumps.

Help me out on this rotary vane vacuum pump.
See previous post from today.

Thanks
Counselor woodsman

[Brent]

This "boosting" of vacuum is something dumped on us by the maple equipment makers.

Every pipeline section of an equipment supplier has a listing for a tank, big or small, that they call a vacuum booster. Someone new to sugarmaking must surely beleive this is like magic... Jeeesh if I get enough boosters I might not need a pump at all !!!!!!!:D

[Brent]

Haynes:
I will keep my eyes ope for a 1/2 hp vane pump. There are so many on e-bay and the internet it is hard to discern what to buy.
How many cfm's? Atikinson Maples says this---RULE OF THUMB: Choose a vacuum pump with a minimum capacity of 1 CFM per 100 spiles. Choose 1 CFM per 50 spiles if possible
So I would do well with a 4-6 cfm rotary vane pump?

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000JFNAJE?&tag=shopwiki-us-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=9325


Woodsman

That particular pump is a wet pump ( oil bath ) and I suspect a very high vacuum pump. Most of this style are prone to run real hot and not suitable for continuous running for maple. You don't need a 2 micron vacuum for a pipeline. I'd look for a Robinair operator's manual for suitability suggestions.

[3rdgen.maple]

Lastwoodsman look for a dry rotary vane pump made by gast like model 1550. I run nothing but gast dry vanes pumps and I pull high vac on them for days straight without any problems. The 1550 I have around 200 taps on that one and easily could put a few hundred more on it. I have it regulated at 26 or 27 inches not due to the pump but because of the releaser starts to get sticky over 27. After 3 days straight of running these pumps I couldnt even put my cold hands on them to warm them up, they run that cool. I dont think there is a better pump for the money on the market anywhere.

[3rdgen.maple]

Oh and Im with Haynes the term booster is bs. Its misleading, all they do is help balabce out the vac in a system while the releaser is dumping. They boost no vac as its thats impossible. What they might boost is your sap intake from a smoother running system.

[lastwoodsman]

3rdgen
Thanks for the tip. I did a search on Mapletrader now that I have a model and make. Lots of info on here for it.
Did you ever post any photos here of your setup. Wouldn't mind seeing it. You know the old adage a picture is worth a ______
I will pick one up on e-bay.
Then to set it up. I see you have ran it on a 2 hp and that is what i have for now.
Thanks
Woodsman

[3rdgen.maple]

I have this mental block when it comes to taking pictures. I get asked all the time and just dont ever seem to get to it. I made my own milk can releaser and dang if that doesnt work sweet. Took some time and I really over thought the whole process and went back and made it simple. Unfortunately the releaser is stored away for the winter along with the pump and woods tank so pictures wont come till spring. But I am going to build another releaser identical to the first one for another section of woods after deer season. IF I can get my head out of my ars I will post pictures of the build. Its cheap and so simple. The 1550 I do run a 2hp on it and it works out well as it does not labor the motor at all. I have 2 other 1550's and a big butt gast pump thats going on my next tubing setup thats in the works now. By the time thats done I hope to have 1500 on that line alone.