Auto Draw Off.

[spud]

I have been looking into a auto drawoff for my 40x10 foot rig. With the help of my RO i should draw off 20+ gallons per hour. Right now the rig has two ball valves that are 1 inch. I was considering not buying a auto drawoff and just adjusting my ball valve so a small amount of syrup would always be coming out. I talked to a sugar maker today who suggested it and he say's it will work just fine. Are there any other Traders who are doing this and if so how is it working? Thanks for any advise.

Spud

[maple flats]

I have done that for several years even with a 3x8 and raw sap, our goal was continuous, but about the best we got was 75-80 minutes. We just had to keep close watch of the temp. However I picked up a used auto draw for 2012 because I will be running an RO and wanted one less thing to watch so closely.

[802maple]

Personally I have done it both ways, and I would never buy another automatic drawoff. The only 2 times I have burnt a pan in my life, there was a automatic drawoff involved. You will find that with a RO it is very simple just to keep a small stream of syrup coming off. The last time I was at Lapierres sugarhouse in Canada, two guys were running 4 evaporators without a drawoff and they said they would not buy one either.

[Buffalo Creek Sugar Camp]

I agree with 802. When I started boiling 16%+ concentrate, I figured I am really going to need an auto draw off. I didn't want to spend the money though. I tried it without and it works great. The evaporator has a steady stream of syrup which is around 40 gallons per hour. At times, the valve has to be adjusted a little, but it is easy to run without the auto draw off.

[spud]

Thanks guy's for the input. based on what you all said i think i will hold off on buying a auto drawoff. I know i would feel more comfortable using the valve and not depending on some auto devise. How deep do you run in your syrup pan? Thank again.

Spud

[Haynes Forest Products]

So you don't like the auto draw off because its automatic but your willing to trust an open valve. What happens if the head tank runs dry. I find having the 3 point over alarm is well worth having to auto draw and not using the valve part. Its real easy to forget a plug or transfer valve.

[802maple]

So you don't like the auto draw off because its automatic but your willing to trust an open valve. What happens if the head tank runs dry. I find having the 3 point over alarm is well worth having to auto draw and not using the valve part. Its real easy to forget a plug or transfer valve.


Again the only time I have burnt a pan, a automatic drawoff was part of the problem. It knows what is going on right at the probe but it doesn't have a idea what has gone on 2 trays over and it surely doesn't know what to do if it did know what was going on. We can use a lot of excuses as to what would happen if this or that happens. But the only way to avoid problems is pay attention as to what is going on in your sugarhouse and evaporator and not depend on something that is supposed to work. When you do that, Murphy's law will come out to bite you in the end. If I have to do that, then I might as well turn that valve a 16th of a turn, one way or another every 5 to 10 minutes as well. This in my opinion is one of the unneeded pieces of equipment that I would rather do with out and spend that money in the woods.

[wiam]

I have seen a rig drawing about 100 gal/hr without auto and he prefers it that way.

[spud]

Maybe i am old school but i have to agree with 802Maple. I trust myself more than a machine. At least when the valve is open i know it will stay open until i make an adjustment. I too feel $1200 would be better spent in the woods then on a draw off. I am in hopes one of my kids will be sitting close helping to keep an eye on things. Thanks to all that shared their thoughts both for and against using a draw off.

Spud

[Grade "A"]

I think the bigger the rig the less you need an auto-drawoff. I love mine on my 2x6 because I only draw off a small amount of syrup but have to do it every 30-40 seconds. I would have no time to do the other things needed without one. But it is fun to see how long you can do a steady draw for.

[Haynes Forest Products]

I'm with Grade A This was the only year I didn't burn my pans because I had the Draw off. The 3 point over alarm sounded and I found I left a plug in. Its like cruse control in your car. Just don't use it driving in the mountains during a snow storm texting your wife:emb:

[802maple]

Just another one of things I wouldn't do that you would, Thats why they make them for guys like you, because if it were for guys like me, they would be eating table scraps for supper. We just have to agree to disagree on this one and move on. What is text messaging anyway, is that something you do on them things called cellphones, or IPODS or something like that?

[Thad Blaisdell]

I think the bigger the rig the less you need an auto-drawoff. I love mine on my 2x6 because I only draw off a small amount of syrup but have to do it every 30-40 seconds. I would have no time to do the other things needed without one. But it is fun to see how long you can do a steady draw for.

I purchased an auto-drawoff this spring for next years use. I believe it will come in quite useful on my "big rig" I plan on making between 80-100 gallons per hour. The reason for the purchase is to allow me to make more consistant syrup (brix) and maximize my profits. So instead of making my syrup heavy I can keep it down to where it is suppose to be. This will also allow me to move around getting barrels ready, checking the rest of the rig, or about any other thing without having to worry. I dont mean to walk away but it gives you a minute to do these other jobs without running. I work my sugarhouse alone so any help like this is invaluable.

[802maple]

I purchased an auto-drawoff this spring for next years use. I believe it will come in quite useful on my "big rig" I plan on making between 80-100 gallons per hour. The reason for the purchase is to allow me to make more consistant syrup (brix) and maximize my profits. So instead of making my syrup heavy I can keep it down to where it is suppose to be. This will also allow me to move around getting barrels ready, checking the rest of the rig, or about any other thing without having to worry. I dont mean to walk away but it gives you a minute to do these other jobs without running. I work my sugarhouse alone so any help like this is invaluable.

Good luck with that, I know they sell them on that premise, but I made up to 140 gallons a hour and it was a lot more inconsistent then doing by my old adjust the valve way. Like I said before, it knows what is going on at the probe but a foot and a half away it doesn't have the slightest idea and when I had to keep over riding it to get it right, I figured someone else might as well own it. As far as I am concerned when it keeps shutting off and on, it makes the syrup back up in the pan unlike it does if it runs a stream the whole boil time. When you get that stream right, especially with oil, you shouldn't even have to put a hydrometer in it. But hey if it works for you go for it.

[wiam]

I think the bigger the rig the less you need an auto-drawoff. I love mine on my 2x6 because I only draw off a small amount of syrup but have to do it every 30-40 seconds. I would have no time to do the other things needed without one. But it is fun to see how long you can do a steady draw for.

I have drawn for 35 minutes on my 2x6.

[Thad Blaisdell]

You have to put a shut off in front of the auto-valve. You can adjust the shutoff to get it where you want but then you dont have to worry about going to thin or too thick it will close/open the auto-valve.

[Haynes Forest Products]

I have seen some big rigs running with a constant flow of concentrate from the RO and a MODULATION valve. They seem to believe it works well for them and yes with a modulation valve it never really stops drawing off BUT they say it gives a better consistency. No jackrabbit starts and stops and they still have time to man all the other things that need tending to. I will be the first to say that I screw up alot when running my 3 X 10 and with a RO coming on board I will need piece of mind. Believe me I tried the dribble draw method and yes I got complacent and ran some on the floor. At least with the auto draw I can set the buzzer and be reminded that things need looking at........Like emping the syrup bucket. Then you need to not overflow the finish/filter press tank. So I vote for the auto draw for this DUMMY:emb:

[802maple]

I guess when I get old and can't pay attention anymore, I will pay for all the stuff that doesn't make any money too. LOL

[802maple]

I have drawn for 35 minutes on my 2x6.

The longest I have done it was about 5 and 1/2 hours and there was 13, fifty gallon drums put in the corner. A good afternoons work.

[sapman]

When drawing continuous, do you have times when you have to do any correcting for density? How do you handle that?

[Grade "A"]

The longest I have done it was about 5 and 1/2 hours and there was 13, fifty gallon drums put in the corner. A good afternoons work.

Thats why I feel smaller rigs are harder to run. Things happen so much faster and there's less syrup to draw off (I know I'm not telling you anything new). You've seen my sugarhouse, with all the valves, pipes and switchs, I need all the time I can get to figure out were they all go!:lol:

[802maple]

Yours is a piece of cake, just come up and study one in South Lincoln and then you will go back and say, I need more valves.

[802maple]

When drawing continuous, do you have times when you have to do any correcting for density? How do you handle that?

All I do when I start drawing off is check it with a hydrometer verses the thermometer. Lets say the thermometer that day is drawing syrup at the proper density being 219 or 7 degrees. I start a stream that makes the thermometer stay at 7 degrees, if i see it start to drop and I mean if the thermometer barely moves less then a needle width i will close the valve a little or just the opposite if it rises. When I have a barrels worth of syrup i will check it with the hydrometer and most of the time it is dead on. While the syrup is drawing off, i am dealing with RO's, cleaning barrels, or whatever else goes on in the sugarhouse. I don't need to stand right there making sure everything is going on the way it should be, I found atleast for me that I had to pay alot more attention to things with the auto drawoff then I did with out it, so it was a no brainer for me.

The most important thing any sugarmaker can do whether they have a drawoff or not is have their sugarhouse set up right in the beginning, meaning everything can be seen from wherever they are boiling. If they can't have there tanks where they can see them, they should have a site tube coming from them that is visible in the boiling area, same thing for feed tanks, concentrate tanks and permeate tanks. All valving should be close to that area and the RO as well shouldn't be more then a few feet away, atleast you be able to see it from the boiling area. The whole key to making life alot simpler in the sugarhouse is map everything before you start and eliminate foot steps. A person making 100 gallons an hour should be not working at all if he has things right.

[maplwrks]

Bean--You obviously feel very strongly against auto draws.......What are your thoughts on finishing rigs??I personally think they have no place in the sugarhouse, but thats just me......

[Haynes Forest Products]

So if you have a tank that you store finished syrup in until you have enough to run thru the filter press and that tank has a heat source it should be eliminated? I would even include the heated bottler because it could be used to check and change density. I say all syrup once it leaves the evaporator cant be checked or changed. All plumbing from the Evap to the bottle must be sealed and safety wired to stop any kind of tampering. All bottling will be done at the time of draw off and cant be put into a bottler/canner that has a heat source. The lid must be locked and only opened for cleaning. The use of gages, Thermometers or any device that verifyes the condition of the syrup after it leaves the draw off valve will not be allowed unless you only have 10 or less taps on gravity and you boil at your mothers house outside in your underwear.

[SapZilla]

So if you have a tank that you store finished syrup in until you have enough to run thru the filter press and that tank has a heat source it should be eliminated? I would even include the heated bottler because it could be used to check and change density. I say all syrup once it leaves the evaporator cant be checked or changed. All plumbing from the Evap to the bottle must be sealed and safety wired to stop any kind of tampering. All bottling will be done at the time of draw off and cant be put into a bottler/canner that has a heat source. The lid must be locked and only opened for cleaning. The use of gages, Thermometers or any device that verifyes the condition of the syrup after it leaves the draw off valve will not be allowed unless you only have 10 or less taps on gravity and you boil at your mothers house outside in your underwear.

This thread is finally starting to make some sense.

Auto draw offs are great weather you run a 2x6 or you run a who-knows-what and like to brag about how much syrup you put away in a day.

[802maple]

This thread is finally starting to make some sense.

Auto draw offs are great weather you run a 2x6 or you run a who-knows-what and like to brag about how much syrup you put away in a day.

This will be my last post on this subject and I now understand, it is okay to post if you like them and is not if you don't. A question was asked, I answered them to best of my ability, gave my qualifications to answer this question and I apparently made some people along the way feel uncomfortable, for that I am sorry.

[maplwrks]

Hehehehehehehehehehehe

[802maple]

Hehehehehehehehehehehe

So you think you are funny, like stirring the pot do you, well next week you will get to stir the pot a lot. hehehehehe

[Randy Brutkoski]

I saw mapleworks pickup at the hampton inn last week and i was that close to shrink wrapping that thing. that is an ugly truck with white tailgate. at least it looks better than his scooter.

[Bruce L]

I have been following this thread with interest,just recently purchased an auto draw off for the new evaporator .Bob at Marcland suggested to use the extra outlet to either A-shut down the blowers if the level gets too low/temperature gets too high,or B-open up a solenoid valve to allow sap to flow in through a header above the syrup pan to cool down and raise the level of each compatment in the syrup pan.Any thoughts or suggestions on this?
Thanks

[Haynes Forest Products]

Because of my age and stubbornness I need the help. Once you hook up all the options and become addicted to it you will wonder how you got along without it. I like the 3 point over sap dump idea. Just like the auto float switch on your sump pump technology is a great thing;)

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

I don't have an auto drawoff and don't need one but may buy one in the future because I have some guys that are retired that help me boil and they don't pay the best of attention to the evaporator like I do, so I think it would be beneficial to keep them from burning up something.

Once you truly learn your evaporator, you know what it does and exactly how it ticks and how to run it to its max efficiency. I have drawn off about an hour with mine drawing a steady stream boiling 50 to 1 raw sap.

[Flat Lander Sugaring]

I saw mapleworks pickup at the hampton inn last week and i was that close to shrink wrapping that thing. that is an ugly truck with white tailgate. at least it looks better than his scooter.

thats mapleworks dowry to the grooms family he cant get rid of the scooter:lol: