Question about tapping small trees

[royalmaple]

I know that ideally we are looking for 10 inch diameter trees.

I have talked to some people that measure the base, others 4 feet up. I have also talked to other old timers that tap 8ish inch trees.

I guess is there really a science that tells us not to tap smaller trees?

Would you really kill them or is the amount of sap you would get so insignificant that it would out weigh the costs of collecting the sap?

I was planning on clearing some land around my barn last year so I tapped everything that was going to be firewood anyway. I could not believe how much sap I got out of some small trees. Kinda got me thinking.

Also if a 7/16 tap is ok for a 10 inch tree could you reduce the tap relative to the size of the tree and be in the same game?

I guess if we were all lucky enough to have an unlimited supply of Rock Maple / Roadside/ steep grade we would not have to even consider it. But I am not a pro and just thinking.

[lew]

I was offered a new woods 3 years ago to tap. When I looked at it, I estimated there to be about 200 taps (10 inches or larger) in the farthest corner of the woods (about 800 feet from the road) with a bunch of trees (10 inches or larger) scattered around the rest of the woods that weren't feasable to get because they were so far apart. I talked with the land owner and decided to tap trees that were 6 inches and larger. The trees that fell into the 6 to 10 inch category I used the smaller health spouts, and the larger trees got the traditional 7/16 spouts. When we got done, we had 600 taps total, 350 7/16, 250 5/16 (or whatever size the smaller spouts are). By tapping those smaller trees it allowed me to pick up those scattered larger trees and increase my "efficiency" with the tubing. My sap volume has been better than I expected, and I get sap flowing earlier than expected. Those small trees don't take long to thaw out. I took a trip to Northern Maine several years ago up on Golden Road to see the large sugarbushes in production. Some of the producers up there were tapping trees down to 5-6 inches using the 7/16 spouts (the health spout had not yet been introduced). You could see by looking at the trees that this had been done for several years and the trees appeared to have no ill effects. When I questioned this practice one producer told me that some Canadian foresters were saying that this was an acceptable practice because the tree was growing so fast at this age that it could handle stress. So, going back to this experience, I decide to try it, only with the smaller spouts. At this point, I am truly satisfied. The only drawback I have is that is a pain in the neck tapping with two different size holes in the woods. I carry my tanaka with the 7/16 bit in it and a cordless with the 5/16 (or whatever size it is ) in it. I haven't decide if I like the health spouts enough to use them exclusively. As far as killing a tree do to over tapping, I have tried to kill a couple of small tress (8-10 inch) by putting 20 taps in each tree for 3 years in a row. Didn'seem to phase the trees in the least. Had to kill them the old fashioned way, with a saw. So to make a long story short, I have tapped small trees with small spouts and have been completely satisfied, however this will only be my third year of "testing".

[maple flats]

I have also tapped small (5-6") trees but only when they were too close to a better tree and were scheduled to be removed. I think the size relates to how long you take to go around the tree and would be tapping in the old tap spot too soon. Have you tested the sugar % in the small trees? The sugar is made by the leaves and small means fewer leaves to make sugar so I would guess but have not tested the % that the sugar and/or sap flow would be less. Has anyone out there done the testing. You might however tap any tree every other year or some other type rotation to allow enough new wood to gro so you have enough to tap where an old hole was with enough new wood grown over it. My guess is that if you have a large number of small trees that you are allowed to do improvement cuttings on you could over tap those to be removed and tap more conservatively those to be improved and in the process you would get a lot more sap even if it might be somewhat lower % and as you do the improvement thinning the crop trees would flourish from the growing space and reward you well, the thinning would be fuel for the evap, or the landowner to use or sell. Just my 2 cents worth.

[brookledge]

Usually the thought behind this is that the tree doesn't grow fast enough to offer a new area to tap. So while a new virgin 6" can be tapped anywhere after 15 or so years goes buy you have no areas to tap without being to closed to an old tap. I don't feel that 2 or 3 years is enough to see the effects of tapping. Many have over tapped small trees that are planned to be removed.
I have switched to health spout and get just as much sap as I did with 7/16 although I have vacuum
Keith

[royalmaple]

Hey Guys-

Thanks for the resonses. I agree and I don't think the maple police are going to arrest me.

Are you both using vacuum?

I am using tubing and just gravity flow. I was going to switch over to the tree saver spouts 5/16 on all my taps, but do you think there is a decrease in flow with the smaller taps or does it make any difference?

Also how long are your runs befor you get into a mainline? And How many taps on a 5/16 line?

I was going at the rate of about no more than 100 ft before my 3/4 main line. And trying to keep the amount of taps to no more than 10, usually 6-8.

I have pretty flat land and sometimes the trees are pretty spread out so if I could use more 5/16 line and say 200-300 feet runs and pick up 20-30 taps that would help be more cost effective. But I don't want to hurt the flow just to save a few bucks in main lines etc.

[brookledge]

Yes I'm all vacuum and didn't notice any difference in volume when I switched to health spout. Also when I replaced my 1/2" mainlines with 3/4" I used the old 1/2"in some locations so that I didn't have any long 5/16 laterals. It took a little longer to set up but it gives me better vacuum transfer. I do not have any 5/15 lateral lines longer than 50 feet. Other wise when I test them for vacuum I lose to much at the end of the lines. I have mostly 5-10 taps on 5/16
Keith

[mountainvan]

here's my 2 cents. I've used the 5/16 since they came out and I did not have a drop in sap volume compared to the 7/16. I do not have vacuum and tap flat creek bed to mountain goat steep. I try and keep my lateral lines short and less than 20 taps/line, but there's always that one more huge beautiful maple only 40' away. on lines with less than 200 taps I've found no difference in sap flow between1/2 and3/4 mainline. This last run I got as much sap/tap as another guy with all 7/16 spiles. taphole closure is much better with 5/16 and for me it is a major selling point in getting permission to tap. I have a section of tree showing the damage caused by a 7/16 hole and one with the 5/16 hole damage. the difference is quite abit and by using the smaller spile I'm more "environmentally friendly". here in the catskills with the influx of them ny city folks every little bit helps.

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

One thing I might add to the small tree tapping is that I have a few that are 8" and I mean less than 10 trees total and I only tap them every other year. :?

[gmcooper]

Well here is my 2 cents worth. Today we drove by several large operations. right beside the roads they had a number of 6" trees tapped. One could make an assumption they would be culling these trees in the future. On the other hand they were on the way and if they die you cut them down. A forester a number of years ago gave a talk on tapping and stuck with the 10" min. Less than a week later I was at thier farm and about 100' from the house was a 5-6" tree tapped. The answer was "it will never amount to much where it is growing(better trees around it) and it was on the line so we will tap it till we cut it down". Have heard rumors that some Canadians were tapping from 2" and up.

[brookledge]

Heck if you are tapping 2" then you might as well drill staight through and have a tap on each side.
Keith

[markcasper]

I have a 3 inch hard maple into which I drill 5 7/16" holes, completely through and have been doing this at the beginning of every season since 1995. It is still living and I cannot for the life of me explain why it still continues to live. :roll:

I have a 2 acre patch of solid red maple with 6 large hard maple on the far end. In order to reach the far end, the mainline must go through these red maple. Theres about 80 taps in this red maple area and none of the trees are much larger than 7 inches, with some down to 3 inches. A few of the better red maples I do not tap, but otherwise all of these reds are getting tapped and have been since 1999. I figured it'd be an experement and about 1/2 of them I want to kill, but so far the only ones that have died were the 5 in which the tops broke out off-go figure. I don't think I'd be doing this if they were nice hard maple, but really could care less if they die in this area.

I think as brookledge stated, if you planned on tapping these for the rest of your life, then tapping this samll of trees would be detrimental in the long run. I will continue to tap this red maple area and just see for myself if I do kill the trees--eventually. Mark

[royalmaple]

Mark-

I have the same situation, and I agree. I didn't know if people here were strictly by the books and bottom line do what you want on your land.

I wouldn't make a habit of looking for small trees, but if you are running through a grove of clumps (which one day years ago was 1 big tree) that are shoots from an old stump, tap em.

I have a section of woods that I may thin or clear out to make a nice food plot for the local whitetail, it is almost solid red maples ranging from clumps of 6-8 to 10 trees in a clump and ranging in size from 6-7 inches to 1 inch.

If I have time I may run another main line through them and pick them up with 5/16 tubing.

I also agree and don't think you will just outright kill the trees in a season or two. But I think tapping a smaller tree once with a 5/16 heath would be better than putting 10 taps in a 24 inch roadside maple.

Thanks,
Matt

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

Look what the Indians did to trees and they survived! 8O

[royalmaple]

Brandon-

Agreed, How does a White birch like its bark removed?

Got some taps in today, sap was trickling a bit in some well sunlit trees.

[markcasper]

I failed to mention in my lst post---this 2 acre patch of red maple is on land that my dad bought in 1986. To the east of this 2 acres is the 40 line. Its on that side where the big woods is and thats the area my grandfather purchased in 1947. On the original land there is all kinds of hard maple, along with some oaks and ash. I keep trying to figure out what happened years ago and why the 2 acre patch just across the fence is almost copletely red maple. I can look out my living room window and visually see the 40 line b/c on the west its all red buds, to the east its all hard maple buds. Could someone please explain what caused this? According to my dad, the 2 acre patch was logged pretty heavily in the 60's by the former landowner, while the original side that my grandpa owned was cut down to 12 inches in 1982.

Thats some of why i don't give a care if they die or not, I'm too at odds as to why the whole thing isn't sugar maple, you wouldn't think a fence line would make that much difference. Mark

[royalmaple]

They may have used that as a wood yard.

2 acres would be a pretty good landing for logs and pulp trucks to get into and skidders to move around in.

??

Matt

[markcasper]

matt-- the 2 acres is sloping 12-20%. mark

[Maple Hill Sugarhouse]

2 Acre area-(gonna make this one short) Around here when an area is clear cut the first trees to sprout and take over are of the following species of trees in the order of = Red Maple, White birch or Red oak and sometimes softwood if near by? :idea:

[royalmaple]

Mark-

Then I guess would not be a good landing area, scrap that idea.

matt

[markcasper]

Kevin, I thought of that too, but why isn't there one single popple in with them? usually around here, popple and birch spring up after a clear cut, along with some red maple. Mark

[Maple Hill Sugarhouse]

Poplar around here grows best where there is some levelness to the land-they like water. Behind the nursing home on the mtn. side there are poplar growing and it's where the land slope is less that 5%. If it gets any steeper that that and its a hardwood mix. Patches all through the mtn side like that.

I noticed that a lot out there in Wisconsin the spring of 2003 when i went turkey hunting on my friends Mike's family properties/Hunted several 40's. Lots of poplar growing around and the levelness of the land-Went down to their deer hunting shack to scope things out for a possible fall hunt someday in Jackson county down near City Point off 54 and noticed not much poplar growing on the hill sides but on the level ground there was lots of them.

I'm like radar driving down the road/eyes 25% on the road and 75% looking at the sides-Curious as to what there is where ever i go/ i'm not much of a homebody i like to go touring a lot. My wife is just the opposite-she has the homing instinct/any thing over 75 miles is too far of a drive.

Probably a lot has to do with if there are those type of tree species near by as the seeds can lay dormant for years and then when the sun get into the woodland floor the seeds sprout. Could be soil type? poplar like rich moist sites and red maple can grow on sand if they had too...

[forester1]

Popple or aspen grows from root suckers well so when you cut one a hundred sprout up from the roots.

[Ed K]

Don't worry about killing the red maple,I have to chain saw 3 rings an inch deep and 6" apart to girdle them and they still try to heal up.