Boiling today- foam?

[Tomahawk]

Since we got over 2 feet of snow last weekend and because it was like 60 degrees all week, my trees ran faster Dick Cheney from a quail hunt.

So, I have too, too much sap, so I started boiling today.

Question: i'm getting more foam than usual. some of my "spectators" are saying that they think there is sugar in the foam, so leave it.

Others say, skim it off, it's no good. But these guys don't know what the F they're talking about.

What do you guys suggest I do with the foam?

Thanks.

(PS - I heard the milk solution but I don't wanna add any milk just yet)

[NH Maplemaker]

Tomahawk,Most dealer sell a defoamer which is excepted by all!!!!
Check with the maple guys , bet they carry it. Years ago we would use butter or milk and evan pork fat! But not any more as we see to the public and bulk to dealers! With the defoamer when foam come up you just drip a very small drop into the foam and away it goes!!

Jim L.

[maplehound]

Tom,
Sounds to me like the foam your talking about isn't the kind that comes from boiling sap but from the impurities in the sap. Is it white thick foam that ussually rests in the ends or corners? If so sccop it out. I don't think it hurts anything but jsut looks bad and I always try to remove it. As the season goes on it will probably turn to a darker color and I feel it doesn't do anyone any good. ( just my thoughts though)
Ron

[mountainvan]

I have foam filling the flue pan half up everytime I fire, woodfired. the others are on the money for what I know. in a pinch canola oil in the spray can will knock it down. the foam does have sap/sugar in it so I let it drain out of the scoop, I use the preferated one. by the way vegetarians?vegans do'nt eat syrup with milk/butter as a defoamer, if they know.

[maple flats]

I use the commercial defoamer and it works well. I also skim regularly as needed which removes many impurities, the filtering gets the rest. By the way, if any of you cater to a kosher clientelle i believe the defoamer is kosher as well if you check the bottle it will say.

[brookledge]

Keep the foam down and you will get a harder boil and more evaporation.When the flue pan is full of foam it is harder for the steam to escape. If you skim it discard it as it is only the minerals that are being released.
Keith

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

Speaking of foam, I pulled a dumb one on Friday. I had got the evaporator up and it had been boiling for probably an hour and I look at the evaporator and there is water running down the sides of the flue pan. 8O 8O I flip open the hood door and the foam is clear up to the preheater and above the top of my flue pan which is 15" being a drop flue. Fortunately, my aunt and uncle are only 1/2 mile away and I ran and got about an ounce of vegtable oil. I had a brand new bottle of defoamer sitting in my fridge at the house 30 minutes away. :oops: :oops: :oops: :oops: It is amazing how sometimes we forget the little things.

Found out a wire tie works great to dispense the oil. Just dip it and it is works awesome. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: 8O :wink:

[themapleking]

I've notice that the foam is much worse in the being of the season than later on. Don't know way it just seems that way.

[markcasper]

Maybe the foam is alot worse at the beginning because you are having better heat transfer (if you are wood-fired) I have noticed this too and attribute some of it to the bottoms of the flues being the cleanest at first, which would result in better boiling.

Can't remeber whoo.....but someone once told me never to get the bottoms of the flues wet with water. Well.....I have been bringing mine out every year for a long time, flipping it up and scrubbing the bottomside of the flues to get all of the soot of (river of black). I had heard that combining the soot with water forms a extremely corrosive mix that can eat right through the flues. So far, mine does not leak and doesn't look like a sieve. Mark

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

The main thing is that you let them dry really good and not leave the mix of moisture on them. Leader recommends against it. Seems to me my foam gets worse late in the season. 8O I brush my flues every boil, but don't wash them at the end of the year. 8O

[mountainvan]

Mix ashes/ creasote with water long enough you get lye. some people still make soap this way, like the pioneers did. I have seen flue pans with lots of pinprick holes in them caused by the bottom of the flues getting wet and staying moist. I use a wide spackle knife to scrape the flues clean at the end of the year and brush the flues everyother day. I have an airtight arch with blowers, so most of the creasote is burned off.

[lharris1]

Does the commercial defoamer go bad. It takes so little, a bottle could last many years. Are there any storage recommendations :?:

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

It should last a few years. Just stick it in the freezer in the off season. It is so cheap I usually buy a new bottle every year to be safe. :)

[Maple Hill Sugarhouse]

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[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

What do you mean by syrup height pan?? Mine is 10" and never even come close to boiling out nor do I have mixing problems?? 8O

[Maple Hill Sugarhouse]

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[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

My sections are fairly high and it don't normally jump but it has a time or two. I am curious, does everyone use defoamer in the front pan and what is recommended. :? There are always mixed opions about this?? Kevin, do you use defoamer in the front and if so, does it make it boil faster. :?:

[Maple Hill Sugarhouse]

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[Rob Harvey]

We never seem to need defoamer in the syrup pan, just in the flue pan. We dont ever use it in the finishing rig either although that is much deeper than our evapotator.

[maplehound]

I use the powdered form. I keep acup in my flue pan and keep a salt shacker of it full beside the evaporator to sprinkel in the syrup pans or wherever needed. Works great for us.
Ron

[mapleman3]

Ok Heres the "scoop" on defoamer... you should add a drop or 2 every time you fire or about every 8 or so minutes... only to the sap pan, it keeps the foam down steady throughout the evap., keeps your sap level consistant which doesn't allow the intermixing of the sugars... as soon as it foams it raises your float, when it drops it allows sap to rush in, the defoamer can keep your evap a consistant level when used right... also they say if you HAVE to add it to your syrup pan in an emergency only add it near your drawoff area.. that will cause the sugars to go towards your drawoff not the middle where most foam occurs....when you drop it in the middle it lowers the level there fast and your sugars move backwards towards the drops of defoamer... dont worry if you put the drops away from the foam it will knock it down still. just a drop or 2 is all you need.. don't spray or sprinkle it across the pans.. Good luck

[Maple Hill Sugarhouse]

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[mapleman3]

well that is a big thing I learned from Brad Gillian at the Verona Conference!! :wink:

[sweetwoodmaple]

Yes, Brad has given that same lesson for years now. Also, for us newbies, he advised us to get a system going where you fire the evaporator (for us wood guys), add a drop of defoamer at the sap inlet and draw off some syrup. That way, you get a pattern going and don't forget about any one of the three.

Firing consistently, even though it keeps the B.S. to a minimum, keeps the boiling rate up there where it should be.

My problem last year was I had to run to the woods and pump sap while the evaporator was running. I had my stopwatch set for 10 minutes, so a lot of times I would sprint back up to the sugarhouse to fire and draw off, then it was back to the woods to pump some more.

Hopefully vacuum and sap ladders will help me out this year.

[Parker]

I would not be able to leave the sugarhouse when the evap. was running,to nervous,I have a friend that has burned his pans 3 times in the last 5 years doing that

[maplehound]

couple years ago my father and I ran out of sap so we went to the woods to get more, after letting things die down some in the sugar house. When we came back we had what was the consistancy of tar on the pans. I don't think you could get any closer to a fire than that. So now we never leave our evaporator unatended unless the fire is almost out and the pans are 2" deep.
Ron

[sweetwoodmaple]

Yeah, I agree it's not the smartest thing to do. Hence why I'm trying to upgrade.

I do have the advantage of my sugarbush being 400' or so from my sugarhouse.

I always give the analogy of leaving a nuclear reactor operate unattended...it's possible but not recommended. :D

[maple flats]

I'm with maplehound. Do not leave evap unattended unless sap is up at least an extra 1/2" and fire is way down. Loosing a little boil efficiency is better than risking the pans and sugarhouse. That is how i do it, even if nature calls, make time to do it the safer way.

[markcasper]

I have burned my pan twice and it was sitting there ready to go again last spring. I had visitiors and lo and behold we got busy talking, even though I was right by the evaporators side. All at once it started drawing aoof like 5-6 gallons of syrup at once- here the sap tank had ran dry and nothing was coming in and i had just fired up. Talk about get my #*(^%#%$$% in motion. So, always remind visitors to leave you concentrate, or better yet, have another person there to accept visitors.

The 2 other times i burned my pan, i was out getting wood and the blasted tank went dry. Last year i installed a sight level on the end of the bulk tank, so i can see at a glance whether sap needs to be pumped up. Probably should in vets in an low level alrm too. Mark

[maplehound]

My gravity tank has a float switch in it so when it gets low it turns on a red light and a pump to pump more sap up to it. If the light stays on to lng then I need to change feed tanks or get ready to shut down.
Ron

[RUSTYBUCKET]

We were told by a fella a couple of years ago that keeping the foam down increased the rate of boil off. We scratched our heads and frankly, didn't give it too much credence. We'll have to give the thermometer experiment a try and see if we register a difference in temperature.

Thanks for the discussion guys.


Russ

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

Had quite a bit of foam in the morning yesterday and hardly any all afternoon and evening. 8O

[Sugarmaker]

Brandon,
Sounds like you are having a great season!
Chris

[brookledge]

That is one nice thing about my marcland auto draw off it has low level and high temp alarms and if I had oil it would be even better because it would shut off the burner. Another thing I found out was that when my flue pan foamed up it would buzz the alarm also. With a hood I can't see in unless I open the door. I know that I should add defoamer every time I fire but seems like it is easy to be doing something else.
Keith

[brookledge]

Russ
Yes keeping the foam down in the pans especially the flue pan will increase your evaporation rate. I don't think you will see any change in temps just that the water will be released easier.
Keith

[RUSTYBUCKET]

Keith,

When we made the move from our old flat pan to an evaporator, one plus in the deal was that the dealer offered to come to the house to show us how to operate it. Unfortunately, that never happened and we were on our own. We were thrilled when we saw that sea of rolling foam, figuring we must be doing it right. Now the opposite appears to be the case.

On a side note, we boiled saturday and finished with another 3 gallons. Total to date is 8 gallons.


Russ

[Maple Hill Sugarhouse]

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[mapleman3]

if you do a drop or two evrytime you fire there should be no need to put any in your syrup pan

[RUSTYBUCKET]

Keith and Kevin,

Thanks for the information.


Russ

[mountainvan]

rusty bucket, where was it the guy told you about the foam? could have been me.. if it was I'm right!!!!!

[RUSTYBUCKET]

Mountainvan,

A couple years back, I ran into a fella (Ralph ??) that told us about keeping the foam down in the FLUE pan. Said it increased the rate of boil off. We were skeptical at first only because we were putting about 18-20 GPH through our DG Sportsman at the time, which we thought was a pretty good rate.

How are things up your way??


Russ

[Fred Henderson]

The large bubbles tend to trap the steam/water and that is what when are try to get rid of.

[mountainvan]

rusty bucket, cold and snowy. looks like wednesday may be warm enough for sap. going sugaring shopping today, tank, tubing, etc..

[maple flats]

I use defoamer when foaming starts but I do not use it every time I add wood (about every 7 minutes). I rarely need it in the front pan. Keeping the foam down in my experience does give faster evaporation. The temp changes are the result of sugar % increasing and have nothing to do with foam insulating. Most of the temp change happens just before you have syrup and very little is in the flue pan.

[RUSTYBUCKET]

During the installation of our evpaorator, we added a manual draft control (butterfly damper) to the smokestack. When the foaming reaches that point of boil over, a simple twist of the knob brings everything back under control. Do you guys have any thoughts on using this method as opposed to defoaming agents to keep things under control? Do you guys use a damper in your smokestack?


Mountianvan,

We checked our buckets yesterday and most were empty. Temps look promising for mon-wed. Did you see the forecast for the latter part of the week.....60's by saturday??!!

Russ

[mountainvan]

Russ I of course have an opinion!! Use a defoamer. I think when you're opening the damper all the heat is going up the stack and not to the pans so you're losing boil. Not only does the foam keep down evap. rate due to the steam hitting the bubbles, condensing, and falling back into the sap. But if you have too much foam enough liquid can be "held" in it and you can damage your pan. Most people have this happen with their front pan, but I've heard it happened to a sugarer I used to know, died awhile back. He told me and he was'nt a fisherman or maple equipment salesman!! As for the weather, it'll be what it'll be. shows warm next weekend but cooler next week( accuweather). had 38 here yesterday,18 above what the nws said.23 right now, might start to flow by the end of the day. pulled a couple spiles, trees froze good, but wood still white!! got another 500gal tank last night to make sure I'm ready for the "huge" amount of sap this week. just in time to make lots for the maple weekend. come on up anytime for a visit. van

[brookledge]

I can't see wasting btu's. Use defoamer. I strive for the maximun capacity of my evaporator and would not be able to do that with out defoamer.
Keith

[RUSTYBUCKET]

We'll get our chance to experiment with the foaming issue this week. Buckets had sap last night so later this am I'll hook up the collection tank for a ride. Thanks for the comments everyone!

Russ