Wet/Dry Line

[philkasza]

I guess I am still learning about vac systems and people talk about wet and dry lines. I don't know the difference. All my lines have sap running through them so I would guess they are all wet or at least the sap is.:lol: Seriously, I am trying to put up a very efficent vac system for next year so if any one has some tips advise thanks in advance for sharing.
Sam

[500592]

It is when the mainline is two stacked on top of each other so one is always full of sap then to one allows vac to transfer better or in the morning when the lines are frozeen the sap can still flow into the dryline

[maple flats]

If you will have a smaller system you only have a need for one line. When a system gets bigger it helps to have a wet/dry system. In that the dry line is hung several inches above the wet line (in my case 12" above). This is called a conductor system. No laterals run directly into a wet/dry system. Laterals run into mains and where the mains enter the conductor system, they enter at a T that seperates the wet/dry line, either straight inline or out to the side. This tee is usually larger than the wet.line Then the sap falls to the bottom and runs into the we line while the air (gases) rise to the dry or vacuum line.
As an example, I have set up a wet/dry with 1.25" wet and 1.5" dry lines. This will handle the 3000 maximum taps I will have on this system. My mains are 1" or 3/4" that carry the lateral collected sap from sections of woods. My 3/4" and the 1" are max 1000' long, and they run to the wet dry conductors and are sepparated to go to the wet or dry lines. The conductors then go to the releaser. At certain times of hard run or early in the day when the wet line may be frozen and the sap starts to flow in part of the woods, the dry line will actually carry sap to the releaser. The main reason for a wet/dry is for better vacuum transfer out into the bush.

[DrTimPerkins]

Perhaps a photo will help. Dry line on top, wet line below, manifold (older style) tie them together with single mainline coming off. Laterals come off the single mainlines. Valves are for washing with air/water (from below).

[Haynes Forest Products]

Notice the size of the manifold between the two. Its bigger so the sap cant get sucked up and into the dry line unless there is no other way out. I think the wet/dry implies they are the same and there not. I think wet line dry line is less confusing.

[spud]

Perhaps a photo will help. Dry line on top, wet line below, manifold (older style) tie them together with single mainline coming off. Laterals come off the single mainlines. Valves are for washing with air/water (from below).

Dr.Tim

I understand the reason why some should go with a wet/dry system. Although if someone's sugarwoods is on a good slope and their running high vac why not just run 1 1/2 main up in to the far ends of the woods and then have 1 inch for everything else? Large operations run their vac none stop throughout the season. If their Mains are tight and sloping and they have high vac why would there be any ice in the line? It seems two sets of mains and two sets of wire plus all the manifolds would be more expensive and time consuming. Would your woods at PMRC still get .50-.60+ per tap using a single 1 1/2 main system? As you know i am setting my woods up real soon and cost is an issue. I am not looking to cheap out and i want to do it right the first time but it seems to me both way's are right. Some people told me they increased production by 20% using the wet/dry system but my question back to them is what size main did you use when you had the single line? Most people i talked to were using too small a main to start with. Has PMRC done any research on the two systems and the amount of production from each one? If there is any other Traders that have used both systems please join in and share your thoughts. Any advise would be great. Thank you for your help.

Spud

[waysidemaple]

Here are a few more positives with a wet line dry line setup. The sap should come in cooler at your collection point because there is little air in the wet line for the sun to heat up. If you have a challenging slope, the dry line always allows air to get to your taps if your wet line backs up with sap. These are two of the reasons I went with this setup on my new 500 tap bush.

Scott

[spud]

Scott,

Thank you for your input. If you were using 1 1/2 main only with a vac that ran 24-27 on good slope coud you get the same results? My longest main will be 1200 feet and then i thought i would drop to 1 inch to catch all my tubing. If i only allow 200 taps or so into each 1 inch line and then from there into my 1 1/2 main would i be ok? With my slope and super high vac i feel my sap should come running into my sugar house like a raped ape. Please correct me if i am wrong. I am open to all advise. Thanks again.

Spud

[ennismaple]

Spud,

Excluding fittings, you can install a 1" dry with 3/4" wet line system for less than a 1.5" single pipe mainline. A 1.25" dry with 1" wet line system would be about $0.12 to $0.20 per foot more to install.

I've yet to see a mainline without some sags in it - and we get ours singing tight. It's those dips that cause vacuum loss upstream of the partial or complete mainline blockage caused by the slug of sap. The wet/dry gets good vacuum further out into the bush - meaning more vacuum at the tree = more sap = $$

[oneoldsap]

Dear Spud : the term raped ape is no longer acceptable ! The politicaly correct term is now " sexually molested primate " . Your post doesen't say how many taps you are putting on your mainline . 200 on a 1" trunk line will leave you plenty of vacuum capacity . If you size your mainline so that you are only using half it's capacity for sap you should be fine also , at 1200' you shouldn't even need a booster . Get you lines Banjo String tight with plenty of grade ( but not too much ) you should be good to go !

[wiam]

I have noticed that some ask how others do something then argue about how to do it. I wish that they would just do it their way and then tell us we have done it wrong.

Reasons to use wet/dry

Less cost than way oversized single line
more vac to tap
more sap

Draw backs

Not enough evaporator
not enough time to boil
not enough syrup storage
too much money


I say skip wet dry line

[Thad Blaisdell]

As I have read too many times on here.... How can I make more money/sap but spend less money than the guys who make a lot. There is a reason big producers do what we do. It works, it works well, and it works all the time. Something I havent heard for a reason is that when your wet line freezes at night, in the morning sap can come down the dry line until the wet line thaws. Lengthening your total sap production hours. Anyone can do anything they want when it comes to putting up tubing/mainlines/wetdry lines. But if you want to make the same as the big boys you do as they do. If you are going to go without a dry line this year I would size the other line bigger. Remember this, 1.25 line costs twice as much as 1" line. If I was going to run only one 1.5 line I would probably run two 1.25 lines instead. Relatively no cost difference.

Anyway good luck

[spud]

Thank you everyone for your input. I feel i have a better understanding of the wet/dry system. I don't want to set my woods up to make .25 per tap when i could have gotten .50+ per tap. I never looked to take a short cut i just questioned one large main line verse a wet/dry system. I have never heard anyone say anything bad about a wet/dry system and there must be a reason for that. It has been over 20 years since i tapped a maple tree and i know i have a lot to learn. Thanks again everyone for your input.

Spud

[Sunday Rock Maple]

Along these same lines --- we are converting 2,300 buckets over to a wet/dry system this year. We've got about 12,000 feet of wire up and are now working on getting the main line on it (got about 3,000 feet done as of tonight). The plan was to start with latterals once the mains were up and then do the plastic on the dry lines last in case we ran out of time. Is that the right priority, or would we be better starting with less taps, but all on wet/dry (if we couldn't get it all done this year)?

[wiam]

Along these same lines --- we are converting 2,300 buckets over to a wet/dry system this year. We've got about 12,000 feet of wire up and are now working on getting the main line on it (got about 3,000 feet done as of tonight). The plan was to start with latterals once the mains were up and then do the plastic on the dry lines last in case we ran out of time. Is that the right priority, or would we be better starting with less taps, but all on wet/dry (if we couldn't get it all done this year)?

You could do it either way,but I would go for less taps done right.

[maple flats]

I could not afford both so I bit the bullet and put up all the big lines this year, even though I'll likely only get about 700 taps the first year. Then it will be ready for an additional 900+ the next season and more the following. I just could not fathom having to change the conductor lines to handle more taps each year for the next 2 years. If things work out and I can put in more taps all I need is some 3/4" main and laterals, everything else is already to go. I even have the manifolds ready, where the main would enter the wet/dry conductors just in case.

[Sunday Rock Maple]

Thanks for the replies. We just finished our second 2,000 foot role of mainline tonight. That leaves 8,000 feet to go before we start the latterals. Any thoughts on how many hours I should plan for each 100 taps once we do start?

Brian

[ennismaple]

Brian - Depends on how fast you move and how dense your woods is! Once the mainlines are up I stretch tube and my brother cuts in pre-made droplines and we get over 400 taps up in a day, not including installing saddle manifolds. You'll get faster as you fine-tune your processes.

Good luck!

[Germanmaples]

I have recently installed a 1" mainline to vacuum and am losing vacuum to dips and sap surge. I get nothing at the top of the sap lines at the tap hole. I added a dry line yesterday and joined it with a T at the beginning of the steap grade but the vacuum is fighting each other and had to diconnect the dry line. Can anyone help me German maples

[DrTimPerkins]

I have recently installed a 1" mainline to vacuum and am losing vacuum to dips and sap surge. I get nothing at the top of the sap lines at the tap hole. I added a dry line yesterday and joined it with a T at the beginning of the steap grade but the vacuum is fighting each other and had to diconnect the dry line. Can anyone help me German maples

You're getting no vacuum at the top of the lateral lines? What about at the top of the wet line? Sounds like it might be plugged or seriously restricted, which could account for why the vacuum is "fighting each other". Could simply be ice in the wet line that hasn't thawed yet, especially if you have dips. I'd fix the dips and sags in the wet line first, and make sure all the connectors in the mainline are tight and leak-free. Any leaks will cause localized ice formation.

[ennismaple]

It sounds like there's a blockage in your wet line - either ice or something else. The wet and dry lines should not fight each other - they allow for higher vacuum out into the woods and at the tee you installed the sap will stay in the bottom in the wet line and the dry line will take the air.

Getting all the sags out of your lines is critical. If you see surges of sap at the releaser you have dips that are causing sap to fill the wet line. You want a steady pencil thin stream of sap coming in. If you don't have that, add side ties and posts (2x2's work well and are cheap) to get the sags out - even if they need to be every 10 feet.

[TheMapleMoose]

We are setting up a new system in a new woods this year and plan to use 1" over 1" wet/dry system. The question I have is about the branch line manifolds. I've heard people talk about up-sizing the tee to help the sap drop into the wet line and keep it from being sucked into the dry line. Should I use an 1-1/2" tee and put bushings top and bottom for the 1"x1"x1" combo tees, and into the side for the 3/4" branch lines? Or just use a 1" tee?
The second question; is there a need to have any shutoffs (in the manifold set up) other than in the branch line to isolate it?

[brookledge]

I personally built mine with 4" Sch 40 pipe. Just used plastic adapter to get to pipe thread and bushing down to 1". I wanted to make sure that there was no way sap could jump up into the dry line. Normally if you have no leaks it shouldn't be to jumppy but if you get aleak and your connector from the dry to wet is the same size ithink you have the chance of sap jumpi9ng up similar to a sap ladder. I sort of wish it was built with the clear pvc so I coild see into it to see how it works. Anyways the sap flowing out at the releaser has no turbulance. Definately happy with my set up
Keith

[nymapleguy607]

Alot of people won't build plastic manifolds anymore. To me they are harder to attach the tubing to and have alot more seams and areas for possible leaks. Many people including myself just tee into the wet line and then add a y fitting in the line a few feet back and then put a jumper from the y to a tee in the dryline. They are a little less likely to crack when frozen or if a tree falls on the wet dry lines.

[maple flats]

Alot of people won't build plastic manifolds anymore. To me they are harder to attach the tubing to and have alot more seams and areas for possible leaks. Many people including myself just tee into the wet line and then add a y fitting in the line a few feet back and then put a jumper from the y to a tee in the dryline. They are a little less likely to crack when frozen or if a tree falls on the wet dry lines.
I started using this method on my expanded lines this past season. I really like it, costs less and is simple to build. My only change I'll use for future expansion is to use tees on all connections, a Y is more time consuming to install