Temp but not density at end of season???

[Flat47]

During this past hectic season, someone here made mention of calling the season done when they could get the correct temp but not get the density. I did some quick searching and can't find that topic. Is this a result of the sap's composition changing at the end of the season? Or just personal belief?

[maple flats]

I've never experienced that. I might suspect a faulty hydrometer (or thermometer). At proper density the boiling point does not vary but one's measurements of the values may.

[red maples]

I don't know...posibbly like maple flats said faulty hydro or could be just plain inexperience.

I am not the most experinced ...like most I use a hydrometer, the temp is just used as an estimate. in the beginning of the season it seems to be closer to the 219* mark but I have had to go as much as 223* + at times to get to the correct density. as long as there is sugar pressent the density will be hit eventually. If your sugar is 1% you obviously need to boil longer to acheive the results. Usuually the Darker grades need to be boiled to a higher temp for correct density.

As far as the change of chemistry of the sap, yep changes through out the season. thats in here in several places or just PM the Docperkins and I am sure he could point you at the correct literature. you can also check the uvm/proctor research site for info too. if you go to my web page I think its on the links credits tab there is a link for the uvm/proctor site.

[nhmaple48]

I have had this happen.End of season syrup,i.e.nasty commercial,has so much air in it the hydrometer will go to the bottom of the cup and it's waaay past syrup.Almost burned the pan.It's the one time the hydrometer lies.

[Flat47]

I have had this happen.End of season syrup,i.e.nasty commercial,has so much air in it the hydrometer will go to the bottom of the cup and it's waaay past syrup.Almost burned the pan.It's the one time the hydrometer lies.

Like I said, this past season was really hectic, and I'm just now going through my bulk syrup and canning it. One batch dated really late in the season isn't even close to density and I kinda remember a long day of boiling with a couple of batches getting drawn off way over temp but under density. Like most, I use a thermometer to get me close and then use a hydrometer to verify and finish. All my other batches have checked out but this one. I haven't opened the last batch of the year, but I suspect it's the same story.

[maplecrest]

i am the one that stated that i was done due to up to temp but not density. what happens is sap gets ropey,i had dumped 1/2 of the sap in tank because was ropey. when sap was comming out of tank not ropey i started boiling. made 2 drums of syrup.then the ropey sap was in front pan.can up to temp.but would not come up to denisity.so i dump whole evap and try to start over or call season. called it a season

[red maples]

OH I ran out of wood and called it a season before I got real end of season sap merch sap!!!

[3rdgen.maple]

Never had this problem. Boiled some ropey snot over the years and never remember not making it to density.

[Haynes Forest Products]

nhmaple I hope I don't get my butt in a sling. YOU DON'T PUT THE HYDROMETER IN BOILING SYRUP. Bubbles are no good. You draw off into a hydro cup and test ASAP even waiting 30 seconds can have a huge effect. The best method to test in a cup is to hold under the draw off valve that has the bucket under it. When the thermometer in the pan says its syrup draw off allowing syrup to over run the cup heating it and the hydro and filling it with fresh syrup. I had Jim make up a draw off bucket with filter screen that the hydro cup sits on right under the auto draw. After every draw I can look and see if things need recalibrating. I don't have to fill and dump fill and check fill and dump. This is the first year I didn't break the hydro:D

I want everyone with a hot tub to get their favorite rubber duck and the neighbor lady down the street get in the tub and.....................................STFUC.... OK OK things float differant in water full of bubbles

[DrTimPerkins]

...could get the correct temp but not get the density.

I was asked to comment on this phenomenon.

When there is a VERY heavy microbial load in sap and it is boiled, it is possible to get to a point where the temperature is correct for syrup, but the density is not. This is because all the organic material (slime produced by the bacteria and the bacterial bodies themselves) have a "density" very close to water, however they don't dissolve, but instead, remain somewhat of a gelatinous goo in the pans.

When you measure the temperature, you're getting the temperature of everything in the pans, the liquid, the dissolved sugar, and the "goo". These can get to the point where the temperature is at the correct draw-off temperature (the density of the liquid + dissolved sugar are correct to cause a temperature elevation....the goo just tracks along at the same temperature). However once you draw off and put your hydrometer in the syrup, you find a low density because the lower density of the "goo" (close to water) partially offsets the true density of the syrup (liquid + dissolved sugar), resulting in a reading that is below expected for syrup density.

If you try to keep boiling the stuff to try and increase the density, you're likely to just burn up your pans.

Hope that makes sense.

[SeanD]

The best method to test in a cup is to hold under the draw off valve that has the bucket under it. When the thermometer in the pan says its syrup draw off allowing syrup to over run the cup heating it and the hydro and filling it with fresh syrup. I had Jim make up a draw off bucket with filter screen that the hydro cup sits on right under the auto draw. After every draw I can look and see if things need recalibrating. I don't have to fill and dump fill and check fill and dump. This is the first year I didn't break the hydro:D


Hey Haynes,

If I read this right, this could be a technique I'd like to try. So, the hydro cup is being poured into with the hydro in it and the overflow goes into the bucket? The hydro stays in the cup the whole time? Then you read the hydro to determine when to stop the draw? How do you keep syrup from dribbling all over the top of the hydrometer?

Sean

[Flat47]

i am the one that stated that i was done due to up to temp but not density. what happens is sap gets ropey,i had dumped 1/2 of the sap in tank because was ropey. when sap was comming out of tank not ropey i started boiling. made 2 drums of syrup.then the ropey sap was in front pan.can up to temp.but would not come up to denisity.so i dump whole evap and try to start over or call season. called it a season


I was asked to comment on this phenomenon.

When there is a VERY heavy microbial load in sap and it is boiled, it is possible to get to a point where the temperature is correct for syrup, but the density is not. This is because all the organic material (slime produced by the bacteria and the bacterial bodies themselves) have a "density" very close to water, however they don't dissolve, but instead, remain somewhat of a gelatinous goo in the pans.

When you measure the temperature, you're getting the temperature of everything in the pans, the liquid, the dissolved sugar, and the "goo". These can get to the point where the temperature is at the correct draw-off temperature (the density of the liquid + dissolved sugar are correct to cause a temperature elevation....the goo just tracks along at the same temperature). However once you draw off and put your hydrometer in the syrup, you find a low density because the lower density of the "goo" (close to water) partially offsets the true density of the syrup (liquid + dissolved sugar), resulting in a reading that is below expected for syrup density.

If you try to keep boiling the stuff to try and increase the density, you're likely to just burn up your pans.

Hope that makes sense.

Interesting...thanks for clarifying. I guess that the lesson learned here is to boil as soon as possible and keep the storage tanks clean. Easier said that done sometimes. Things is, I don't remember the last sap looking too awful bad. It was cloudy, but not milky or snotty.

Is it worth (or even possible) to filter out the "goo" before boiling to avoid the temp/density issue?

[3rdgen.maple]

Glad the Doc chimed in. Nice to learn something new about syrup. I am guessing I never had this problem because I have not had sap snotty enough to cause this. It seems that here the sap just dries up before it gets to that point.

[Haynes Forest Products]

SeanD I might have given a a false idea. I dont continue to run the finished syrup into the cup while reading it. I have the hydro cup under the draw off with the hydrometer in the cup. I open the valve displacing the cooled down syrup in the cup. I let it spill out and over into the draw off pail. I then shut off the valve when I feel all the cool syrup has been displaced and the cup is also up to temp. I check the density level and adjust the auto draw. Because the syrup is hot along with the hydrometer I believe all the syrup slides off allowing for a accurate reading. I even put two Hydros in the same cup when I get board to see if they agree. I have two valves on my set up one goes to the auto draw and I have a bypass that I use to check for density.

[3rdgen.maple]

Okay Haynes when you and Jim get to builing this thing dont forget my share of the profits:D
Heres what just came in my simple mind. Drawoff valve on syrup pan drops down to the bottom of a hydrometer cup, it gets plumbed into the bottom of the cup and over flows out the top. Now you guys can figure out how to stop the hydrometer from flying out of the cup and smashing on the ceiling and the pans from burning up from the slow drawoff so you can keep a constant reading :cool: It will sell if Jim over prices the thing, after all if its expensive its got to work right?

[Jim Schumacher]

3rdgen, that's a actually a pretty neat idea! There could be a small tee after the auto drawoff valve allowing just enough of a flow to purge the last batch of syrup out. The main flow would still be going striaght into the bucket so the pans would never be in jeopardy. The low flow shouldn't displace the hydro, the hydro would never get syrup on it past the level in the cup, and Chuck won't have to drill a 1/16" hole in the bottom of his cup as I've been encouraging. Good work 3rdgen! For your reference, this is covered under patent number: SLM144466789276.544f,8262hfp. What name would you like on the check?

[3rdgen.maple]

3rdgen, that's a actually a pretty neat idea! There could be a small tee after the auto drawoff valve allowing just enough of a flow to purge the last batch of syrup out. The main flow would still be going striaght into the bucket so the pans would never be in jeopardy. The low flow shouldn't displace the hydro, the hydro would never get syrup on it past the level in the cup, and Chuck won't have to drill a 1/16" hole in the bottom of his cup as I've been encouraging. Good work 3rdgen! For your reference. This is covered under patent number: SLM144466789276.544f,8262hfp. What name would you like on the check?

My name and man you stuck that patent on there right quick lol. I liked the idea myself and figured that you would devise a good plan for it. Just make sure I get one to test as well. ;) You might have to incorporate a thermometer in there somewhere as well. Probably be hotter than 211 so we would need to compensate for the density difference.

[Haynes Forest Products]

I see some screening it the cup to keep the turbulance to a minimum. I like the idea of in on the bottom and out at the top. I have a Clarinet that I tried to play back in 64 I remember I was sitting in the last seat.......OK OK Ill take one of the valves and jim can drill a hole in the side at the bottom and put the valve on it to drain after every test. And during the down time I can get the wife to play a few notes on it.........................The hydro cup silly....................SHEESH

[Haynes Forest Products]

Im on my way down to Napa to see if they have any food grade exhaust flappers the kind you put an your tractor. I have the kid at home cutting the bottom of my Hydro cup. Ill install a screen in the bottom to keep the hydro from dumping out and I will make a seal with a food grade truck tire and seal the flapper. Bingo bango you have the flipper flapper auto dump hydro cup. JIM put the CDL cataloge with the taped on cover from Wedding dress weekly down and get out in the shop. I want a prototype on my desk by Monday:evil:

[3rdgen.maple]

Well if you get a prototype on your desk monday there better be one on mine too. Lucky for Jim theres alot of monday's before I get any sap.:D