Another newbie's question here

[Cake O' Maple]

Was just reading frjeff's question, and I'm doing something close to the same for my first year with my own stuff next spring. (I borrowed my neighbor's turkey frier last year for 6 taps.) I just bought a 105,000 BTU propane burner, thinking I may blow through the propane, but I should also blow through the sap!

BryanEx just said in frjeff's post: At 65,000 BTU you will be drawing more propane than a BBQ tank can handle over a longer period and they will freeze up reducing your boil rate.

So my question is, is there any way to keep the tank from freezing up? I've only used propane tanks this past spring, borrowed for the boiling, so am quite the novice with them.

My planned setup is in a large garage w/o a door, cement floor, 1" ceramic blanket on floor to keep cement from cracking w/ the heat, then walls of insulating firebrick surrounding the propane burner and about halfway up a double size 8" deep Vollrath pan, with hopefully 15 taps. Trees are in the yard, not a forest.

Also, any input on the planned setup? TIA

[Maple Ridge]

My first years was all propane. I never had any problem with freeze up. I don't think you will be running the burners fully open. I always brought it up to a good boil and adjusted the flame to keep it there. The tanks would get frosty but no issues with freeze up. All my boiling back then was outside in a tarp covered frame.

[Ausable]

Talk to Your Propane Dealer and explain to him what You are doing. He will tell you what size tank You need for your Burner output to prevent freezeup. Usually that is the answer to freezeup - the tank surface area above the liquid propane where the Gas forms is to small for the demand placed by the larger burner and thus freezeup.... should be a simple fix.

[BryanEx]

Usually that is the answer to freezeup - the tank surface area above the liquid propane where the Gas forms is to small for the demand placed by the larger burner and thus freezeup.... should be a simple fix.

This is correct. Propane boils at -40 degrees which is the process where it turns from liquid to gas. Just like with your evaporator pan, the larger the surface area the more you can boil (reduce freeze up). 100 pound tanks have a wider circumference than standard BBQ tanks which is why I recommend them but there are a few other ways to handle freeze up.

Have two 20 pound tanks and alternate as ice forms on the outside of each tank.

Keep pouring warm water over the tank as you see frost forming along the propane line.

Set the tank at a slight angle (not on it's side) to increase surface area.

BBQ tanks work just fine but squeezing all the efficiency out of them is far better than repeated trips to fill them up on a weekend.

[Cake O' Maple]

Thank you, thank you, thank you! I feel much more prepared to handle potential freeze-ups now!

I got 2 used tanks, and was contemplating 1 or 2 more, so I didn't have to make daily trips to get propane on good flow days. If I run the burner full-tilt (which I don't expect to do) I am supposed to use a 20# tank in 4 hours... I really hope the firebrick does some serious cutting of amt of propane used.

I looked into renting/buying 100# tanks, and can buy them no problem, but do not have the ability to take them anywhere to be filled (I couldn't move them full, and do not have a way to transport upright), and no one will deliver that small an amount to where I live. Sure would like to save the repeated trips to town, tho.

How long 'til February, again????

[BryanEx]

I looked into renting/buying 100# tanks, and can buy them no problem, but do not have the ability to take them anywhere to be filled
This is a really good point I completely missed. I heat with propane so it's a cinch to have the local truck fill the tanks on site. Regular tanks icing up is not the end of the work but if you are trying to boil down sap you will want maximum "whoosh" for your buck. Another option would be to find the right fittings to run one burner off two tanks at the same time. That would also double your surface area for the liquid propane to evaporator and reduce icing. Just so you know, I used to boil all weekend on propane at 65,000 BTU and would use 2 full BBQ tanks in the process. Your burner is almost double that so plan on four full tanks for Friday if you need to boil all day both days. Shop around for propane prices too. I found a $20 difference per tank locally with Costco being the cheapest.

[sk8heaven]

This is a really good point I completely missed. I heat with propane so it's a cinch to have the local truck fill the tanks on site. Regular tanks icing up is not the end of the work but if you are trying to boil down sap you will want maximum "whoosh" for your buck. Another option would be to find the right fittings to run one burner off two tanks at the same time. That would also double your surface area for the liquid propane to evaporator and reduce icing. Just so you know, I used to boil all weekend on propane at 65,000 BTU and would use 2 full BBQ tanks in the process. Your burner is almost double that so plan on four full tanks for Friday if you need to boil all day both days. Shop around for propane prices too. I found a $20 difference per tank locally with Costco being the cheapest.

Bryan is right on about using the two tanks together...
I went to my propane dealer, explained to him what I was doing (running three 60,000 btu burners simultaneously) and he came up with the fittings and hose to manifold two 100 lb tanks together, I added a high pressure regulator and can run those two tanks down to almost nothing without freezing up. Previously I was using 20 lb cylinders on a single 54,000 btu burner and I could never get the whole tank emptied due to loss of pressure when they frosted up ....
With the two tanks manifolded together I can boil 160+ gallons of sap before changing bottles. Propane is definitely not the most cost effective ($116 for two bottles which comes out to roughly $30/gallon of syrup for me) but it gets me by until I get the wood fired arch.

[Cake O' Maple]

I heat with propane so it's a cinch to have the local truck fill the tanks on site.

I like your propane company! The first place I called is my LP supplier, as I heat w/ propane as well. Told them I was a customer, what I wanted to do, asked about rental and delivery of proane for 100 lb tanks. They won't deliver less than 200 gallons, no way, no how.

Thanks for the idea about 2 tanks at once, would never have thought of it. I'll look into the fittings. Thanks also, for the amt you used w/ the BTU's you had. It helps plan. Did you have an open burner, or did you do anything to keep the heat in?

Sk8heaven, thanks for the details on linking 2 tanks and the ability to empty them! BTW, my sister lives abut 3 hours east of you, in Biwabik! It's beautiful up there, but not too many maples. I laugh when I go, because down here, the maples are in the woods and the birch in the yards, and there, the birch are in the woods, and the maples in the yards!

[BryanEx]

Thanks for the idea about 2 tanks at once, would never have thought of it. I'll look into the fittings. Thanks also, for the amt you used w/ the BTU's you had. It helps plan. Did you have an open burner, or did you do anything to keep the heat in?
For hooking up two tanks you basically need a Y adapter. You may be able to find something at your local propane supplier or maybe an RV center but I suspect you will have to turn to the Internet to get the right set up.

I stated out with an open burner and then quickly added a wind shield made out of old tin roofing. My second year I stacked bricks around the burner and just a little higher than the sap level in the pot which made a noticeable difference in efficiency. Just be sure to not have any combustibles (like deck boards :rolleyes: ) anywhere near it because both the brick and everything inside them will get really hot.

[Cake O' Maple]

Just be sure to not have any combustibles (like deck boards :rolleyes: ) anywhere near it because both the brick and everything inside them will get really hot.

Hmmm, is there a story there? :lol:

[BryanEx]

Hmmm, is there a story there? :lol:

See This Thread (http://www.mapletrader.com/community/showthread.php?t=9063) :D

[Haynes Forest Products]

A good welding supply can get your fittings also and make custom hose valve bodies. Once you have the gas problem solved your right how how to hety the best use of the heat you make. I think most plumbers will tell you that torches need oxegen. When im up in a joist space sweating fittings the torch will flame out and act crazy. The problem is the lack of oxegen to the torch because its all depleated. I built a fancy finishing stand with sides for the burners and a pipe out the back. didnt boil that well untill I took off a panel for good air.

[Cake O' Maple]

Bryan: ouch!!

Haynes: Thanks,,,I was contemplating leaving some open "holes" in my brick wall, but wasn't sure how much I'd need for oxygen vs heat loss. Sounds like I'll need to leave more open than I figured. The size of the pan I'm using means there will be 2" gaps on 2 sides, and (I think it was) 4" on the other 2, unless I filled them in w/ partial bricks. I may not fill them in, then. Think that'll be too open?

[Ausable]

I like your propane company! The first place I called is my LP supplier, as I heat w/ propane as well. Told them I was a customer, what I wanted to do, asked about rental and delivery of proane for 100 lb tanks. They won't deliver less than 200 gallons, no way, no how.

Thanks for the idea about 2 tanks at once, would never have thought of it. I'll look into the fittings. Thanks also, for the amt you used w/ the BTU's you had. It helps plan. Did you have an open burner, or did you do anything to keep the heat in?

Sk8heaven, thanks for the details on linking 2 tanks and the ability to empty them! BTW, my sister lives abut 3 hours east of you, in Biwabik! It's beautiful up there, but not too many maples. I laugh when I go, because down here, the maples are in the woods and the birch in the yards, and there, the birch are in the woods, and the maples in the yards!

Just an idea - If you have any campgrounds in your area -that rent lots by the season - usually there is someone who has RV repair and off season camper storage and they also Fill - Rent and Deliver 100# propane bottles. --- Mike

[SDdave]

Cake O'Maple: Make sure that you stay away from the rubber hoses. I can thank my gaurdian angel for telling me to check them one night. Now I will be using the flexi steel hoses for now on.

[Cake O' Maple]

SDdave, I wondered about the rubber hoses when I close in the heat w/ firebricks, and if they'd melt. Is that what you're referring to? In shopping for propane burners, I found one w/ a flexible metal hose but wanted more BTU's than it had...can I buy metal hoses individually, and are they interchangeable with the rubber?

[SDdave]

Yes that is exactly what I was referring to. My propane guy changed mine out for me. Only cost a pint. :)

[Cake O' Maple]

Just an idea - If you have any campgrounds in your area -that rent lots by the season - usually there is someone who has RV repair and off season camper storage and they also Fill - Rent and Deliver 100# propane bottles. --- Mike

Thanks for this idea Mike. I searched the phone book and internet for campgrounds/RV repair/off-season camper storage, and called all of them within about 20 miles +/- today. No luck. Only a few even have propane, and don't rent tanks much less deliver propane. I called a local equipment rental place and can rent a 100# tank for 4 wks for $80, plus $45 delivery, and asked them about refills--they will "work" with me on delivery if I need a new tank frequently, said probably half the delivery cost. That's just way too much $ for the convenience of a large tank, so it looks like I will be schlepping my 2-20# tanks back and forth quite a bit...:(

[Ausable]

Thanks for this idea Mike. I searched the phone book and internet for campgrounds/RV repair/off-season camper storage, and called all of them within about 20 miles +/- today. No luck. Only a few even have propane, and don't rent tanks much less deliver propane. I called a local equipment rental place and can rent a 100# tank for 4 wks for $80, plus $45 delivery, and asked them about refills--they will "work" with me on delivery if I need a new tank frequently, said probably half the delivery cost. That's just way too much $ for the convenience of a large tank, so it looks like I will be schlepping my 2-20# tanks back and forth quite a bit...:(

Sorry for the bad idea - We have a huge campground near where I live - with lots of seasonal campers - so many of them use 100# tanks as do many of the cabins and cottages in the area. So - a guy is in that business. Hey - here is the thing - making Maple Syrup is a learning experience - that is what makes it fun. If it is just a Hobby - keep it simple and cheap and learn as You go. Experiment - In the Winter - with what You have or get - do a test boil with water and see what happens. If the freeze ups happen - than modify your setup - If not - You are good to go. Don't let any of the advice you get scare you off --- Just keep Sugarin - no matter how you decide to do it ----- Mike

[Haynes Forest Products]

I would start with Craigs list. Put a wanted add for tanks. I run across them all the time junking and give them away.

[Cake O' Maple]

Thanks, guys! I willl keep sugaring, and searching for what I want as cheaply as I can get it. I feel a lot more prepared for what may come up when I start boiling in 6 months! Yay!

[Mitch]

Hi, this is the only thread I could find about boiling over propane burners, so I hope it's ok to post my newbie question here, too...

I have a couple of high output propane burners coming and am looking over the advice here on how to keep tanks from icing. Am also hoping to get propane supplier to work with us for some 100# tanks in order to avoid having to constantly be running to town to refill 20# tanks. Thank you all for posting your advice and experiences on those subjects.

My question is concerning what type of pan to use. I'm getting ready to place an order for a 2' x 4' pan and am trying to decide whether to get a flat pan or a 3 section divided pan. What I'm wondering about is whether it will cause a problem with uneven heating having 2 10" burners under the center of a divided pan, which will presumably concentrate a lot of the heat into the center section and less in the outer 2 sections. Or am I just worrying myself about something that's really a non-issue here? I'd order one of each and try them both, except, well, that's a lot of cash!

Does anyone have any advice or experience to offer here?

Thank you.

-Mitch

[mellondome]

If you are using propane for your home heat, why not hook into the line from your tank? Plumb it to the closest wall and put in a shutoff valve. If you search through RV parts on line, you will find quick coupler connectors for propane as well ( similar to air hose chucks).