Ideal setup

[stewardsdairy]

I am looking to upgrade my setup. I need to spend some money so the government doesn't take it all. What would be your ideal setup for about 1200 taps with half on vacuum? I am looking at a Leader Vortex with max flue pans and steam away in a 3 x10, a 2.5 x 10 force 5 combined with an RO, or a 3.5 x 14 force 5. I am currently using an old wood arch 3 x 8 with about 500 taps and would like to greatly increase my boiling rate. I could expand to about 2000 taps eventually. This will be my fourth year boiling and have caught the bug! Your input is greatly appreciated!

[Potters3]

I am setting up a woods with around 2500 potental. I ordered a Vortex 30x12 this spring. Was very impressed with what I heard about it at the Leader open house from people that had one and how it boiled at the open house.

[Flat Lander Sugaring]

I am setting up a woods with around 2500 potental. I ordered a Vortex 30x12 this spring. Was very impressed with what I heard about it at the Leader open house from people that had one and how it boiled at the open house.

on average I think it was doing like 280 an hr, and the guy firing it said he did hit 320+ for a short time on Saturday. It was amazing thats for sure

[wiam]

I have not heard very many say they would not use a RO after having one. I would hate to boil raw sap now. I made over 400 gallons on a Mason 2*6 drop tube for the last 2 years on 1000 taps. This year the ro worked better with xle membranes and I did not boil over 4 hrs any day.

William

[stewardsdairy]

Wow! Those vortex numbers sound very impressive. I am talking with a Leader rep this morning, and also plan to call about the CDL intensofire. Hope to make a decision by next week sometime.

[red maples]

From talking to people about the vortex vs the force 5 the force 5 is the way to go simply based on wood consumption. As far as I know you still need alot of wood for the vortex it needs to bone dry and it still needs to be fed every few minute where as the force 5 needs wood every 30+ minutes giving you more time to do other things in the sugarhouse and cutting your wood consumption by 40% (not including the RO) , you can burn all types of wood they are very efficient and very green based on polutants and feul usage. the vortex reccommends hard wood and the force 5 reccomends pulp wood(pine, hemlock etc) hard wood is expensive unless you cut it yourself even in log length.

The RO is the best bang for the $$$ double the efficience of the steam away.

Anyway I would say since you have the money do this.

2.5x10 force 5
RO
Hood with pre-heater

Depending on the size of your RO you should be able to put a few thousand taps on that set-up easy.

Hope that helps

[Haynes Forest Products]

A farmer friend that keeps very accurate records went from a 3 X 10 with preheater to a 3 X 10 CDL Intesofire with the same preheater went from firing every 4-7 Min to every 12-15 and as far as boil he went from 80-90 to 140-150 and that is with burning only slab wood from his mill and he only uses the pine and cedar. I can tell you that I spend alot of time sitting on the sap shack wood pile drinking beer. I'm not one that likes to stand alot and I wasn't getting up very much and when I did it was for BEER not to fire the rig:) PLUS he said he burned 1 less hay wagon of wood making the same amount of syrup.

[farmall h]

Hey Haynes! How you do'in? :)

[Haynes Forest Products]

Good very good Thanks for asking Planning and scheming working it out and a little hoping:)

[oneoldsap]

It's been 3 or 4 years since I've Sugared , or spent any time on Maple Trader . Well that is about to change ! I'm setting up a complete 6,000 tap operation this Summer , Fall and Winter . Going to place an order for everything in the next couple of Weeks . Here's what we're getting . Aside from the Tubing System !

SIHI 10 HP VSD Vac Pump
2 6400 Gal SS tanks
2400 Gal LaPierre RO
4X14 LaPierre Hurricane Evaporator w/ hoods and Preheater
10" Filter Press W/ Stand and Piston Pump
We have on hand a 3,500 Gal Creamery Tank ( For Permiate )
1,200 Gal SS Round Bottom ( For Concentrate )

I have never set up an operation with all new stuff before ! When that equipment shows up my eyes will look like a Three year olds on Christmas Morning . Of course we have to get the Sugarhouse built first ! Well second actually , set up woods first .

Red Maple gave the OP some sound advice . The Force 5 doesn't boil any where near as hard as The Hurricane , it will save you some wood if time isn't an issue ! Or with the proper R.O. Machine your present 3X8 will get the Job Done ( High Concentrate ) I know a fellow that takes care of 2500 Taps with a 3X8 and a 1200 Gal R.O. ! It's good to be back in the Game !

[Ausable]

Oneoldsap when You get back in the game - LOL - You ride in on a Bulldozer. Sounds like You are mighty serious and anxious to get it done. Best of Luck

[oneoldsap]

Oh ya , spent the whole day on paper work for investors . Dotting I s and crossing t s . Pivotal meetimg tomorrow night . It's only a Quarter Million Dollars !

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

As far as boiling rate, the Force 5 uses less wood but doesn't seem to boil near as fast as the Vortex, so take your choice.

[oneoldsap]

Well I guess since VT Maplerama the above post is questionable ! The vortex with max flue rear pan just barely kept up with the Force 5 with 7" flues ! The vortex burned twice as much wood too ! Rejean said if he had better wood it wouldn't have been a contest at all .

[red maples]

yeah thats the thing he told us that you can burn the worst wood and it will still operate pretty good. and like you said the better the wood the better the boil and the better the evaporation rate. the key to the hurricane is the arch the key to the vortex is the pans. if you could combine the 2 some how you would have 1 hell of an evap!!!

[Rejean]

Hi, this is my first post, don't be too hard on me! I was the Force 5 operator at maple Rama 2011. The Force 5 evaporated 285 gallons with less than 1/4 of a face cord (1/8 of full cord). Considering that CDL evaporated 310 gallons with a 9 foot flue pan (+12.5% surface) and Leader evaporated 300 gallons with 11" flues (+60% surface). The conclusion is that for equal evaporation surface, The force 5 tops them both...
The Max flue pan might not do well with the force 5 due to the extreme heat in the firebox, we do not recommend force 5 to drop flues for the same reason.

Finally, the force 5 is at its best with slightly green wood (20% moisture) unsplit. The wood provided was very dry (3 years) and split quite fine. It was burning too fast!!!

Good luck with your purchase!

[stewardsdairy]

Jumped in and ordered the vortex with max flue pans and an enhanced steam away in a 3 x 10. Probably should have waited until the boil off, but I'm sure I'll be happy with it compared to my old 3 x 8! Hope to get it before next season- estimated mid January! Now to get to work in the sugar bush to spend some more money and lose some weight!

[sam1234]

I think that there is no general ''ideal setup''.

In order to recommend an ideal setup, besides the number of taps you have, it is necessary to know if there is there an RO involved? Do you crank it up to 4-8-12-even 20 brix???

Many owners have to change their evaporators according to the new RO's available on the market. Their setup probably used to work great in raw sap or low brix concentrate, but will probably become hard to work with high brix RO's. The Higher the brix is, the more finishing (flat pans) you need and the less surface in the flue pan you need (the RO does this job). This is why 11'' flues will be tricky to operate in high brix but would be good in raw sap resluting in too high brix transfer from the flue pan to syrup pan = flue burning = bad syrup quality.

It is important to identify if you are a potential high brix producer when purchasing a new evaporator.

[maple2]

we will be adding another membrain, this year, because the r.o. cant keep up with the evaporator. also looking to replace our flue pan. so it mite be better to choose a slower flue pan?

[sam1234]

Well, if the RO can't keep up with the evaporator, you will add another membrane for better capacity at roughly the same brix, and will probably not be able to crank up the brix as you will have the same problem. So you should not need to change the type of flue pan, unsless you don't like your actual setup.

This is always the same thing :
Having a perfect match - RO/Evaporator is the key.

In a perfect world, we should buy the RO and then the Evaporator but in the real life most are upgrading to an RO with the same evaporator that gets 90%of the time too large or innaporpriate...

[Randy Brutkoski]

My 1200 gallon an hour R.O. cannot keep u with my 4x14 force 5. Next season i will be adding another membrain as well. I dont know why some poeple say that the force 5 doesnt boil as hot, I concentrated at 10% last year and made between 30 to 32 gallons of syrup an hour. That is pretty hard to top at only 10%.

[oneoldsap]

Thats exactly why we are going with a 2400 Gal. R.O. ! It will keep up with the evaporator and give us some room to buy some sap or grow the bush a little bigger ! It's better to have and not need than to need and not have !

[Thad Blaisdell]

The ideal setup would entail.... more taps than you can keep up with, a large enough RO to handle the sap even if you cant, An arch big enough to almost handle all the concentrate.... and enough room to store all the drums when full. Then lastly a checking account big enough to handle all the $$$$

[red maples]

Hi, this is my first post, don't be too hard on me! I was the Force 5 operator at maple Rama 2011. The Force 5 evaporated 285 gallons with less than 1/4 of a face cord (1/8 of full cord). Considering that CDL evaporated 310 gallons with a 9 foot flue pan (+12.5% surface) and Leader evaporated 300 gallons with 11" flues (+60% surface). The conclusion is that for equal evaporation surface, The force 5 tops them both...
The Max flue pan might not do well with the force 5 due to the extreme heat in the firebox, we do not recommend force 5 to drop flues for the same reason.

Finally, the force 5 is at its best with slightly green wood (20% moisture) unsplit. The wood provided was very dry (3 years) and split quite fine. It was burning too fast!!!

Good luck with your purchase!

Hi rejean welcome to the trader....Yes I remember there was some work done on trying to make the force 5 work with drop flue but the heat was too intense for the front of the flues. If remember correctly you guys tried to wrap the front with ceramic insulation and metal ...guess there was no solution.

side bar....Hey also did you ever put anymore work into wood fired whole house boilers/ furnaces? Just curious.

[sam1234]

yeah thats the thing he told us that you can burn the worst wood and it will still operate pretty good. and like you said the better the wood the better the boil and the better the evaporation rate. the key to the hurricane is the arch the key to the vortex is the pans. if you could combine the 2 some how you would have 1 hell of an evap!!!

CDL has the evaporator you are talking about!
It is called the Intens'O'Fire...
No matter what type of wood you are using, dry or not, it works...