Homemade vac system

[500592]

I am going to be setting up vac system for 150 taps using an old refrigerator pump and I am making a releaser using a six inch PVC pipe and some more scrounged up parts but I have most of the parts but still need some more I will hopefully be posting pics soon

[maple flats]

Good for you. My brother once did the same to run one milking machine for first 1 cow and later for 2 goats. It worked fine but I have no idea how many CFM it did. He had a vac control valve to regulate vac and it always stayed at the level he wanted. I think that might have been at least 12" and no higher than 15" but I don't remember the exact level.

[500592]

I figured that if I can get by next year with it then after hopefully I can upgrade

[Gary R]

Always good to hear about guys trying new things. Please let us know how it works. The 3/4 hp Gast dry vane pumps work real nice. I made a 6" PVC releaser. It works great. Do you already have the plans for it?

[500592]

Gary I am using plans by tolbermone but a little different the pics are here http://www.mapletrader.com/community/showthread.php?t=7889&page=3&highlight=Vacuum

[Haynes Forest Products]

That system must cycle alot with just the float having a very short throw. Plus do you have plans for a check valve? I would think that the system would start surging back and forth that would have all the lines juming up and down.

[500592]

I actually bought a inch and half check valve from home depot but do you have any ideas on how to make the float have a bigger throw

[Haynes Forest Products]

The longer the throw the bigger the releaser tank would need to be. The longer the throw the smaller the float would be because of the leverage the longer lever would have. The problem with a single tank releaser with a simple float is that there is no delay allowing for total sap expulsion. With only a simple on off valve it doesn't allow for much movement of the float lever. I have spent many hours pondering how to do it and cant see how to make it work with simple float and lever.

[500592]

Maybe if I could see a picture of the float system on a store bought hobby one I bet I could replicate it

[500592]

Oh I forgot to mention by hobby I mean single vertical release thanks

[3rdgen.maple]

Haynes are you talking about an electrical float switch or mechanical?

[Haynes Forest Products]

I don't want to complicate the simple. So I think we stay with mechanical. As in the drawing the unit would cycle so fast that you would only dump very small amounts. I sat and watched a single Bernard releaser and the float set up was very complicated vacuum lines and air cylinder. so its not a simple float switch.

[500592]

Well hanyes my pipe is three feet long and should hold 6 or7 gallons which is between 50 and 60 pounds pushing on the valve you think that it can regain vacuum that fast

[3rdgen.maple]

Haynes one of these days I will post up some pics of my milk tank releaser which is all mechanical. It dumps 2 gallons at at time and leaves about an inch of sap in the bottom of the tank. Once the float arm pushes up on the lever and releases the vac inside the releaser it allows the float to push up even higher delaying the closing time of the vac seal. Its all about levers.

[500592]

If you could post pics that would be awesome

[3rdgen.maple]

I will. Took some tinkering over the winter to get it just right but it works very well pulling 24+ inches of vac. Hangs once in awhile around 27 so I keep it at 24. Bigger the float the better you will be suprised at how much force it takes to break a vac seal. Its alot.

[Haynes Forest Products]

500592 Are we talking the flapper valve? I have no dought that a lever actuated releaser can and will work. I agree that if the vacuum is dumped and the tank empties and the float takes time to close the vacuum to the releaser allowing most of the sap out is a good thing.......BUT if it allows the sap to surge back out to the trees and this is repeated every 5 minuets thats a bad thing. Your not only contaminating the trees with bacteria but your reducing the time that the trees are under vacuum reducing sap yield. Please don't misunderstand what I'm trying to say. I'm all for trying to build the best and cheapest releaser known to man. I just don't think compromising on ALL the important details is a good thing.

[500592]

I will pu a lapper valve in between the releaser and the manifold so how can it surge back and if I am sayin somtething dumb just correct me

[Haynes Forest Products]

500592 Your doing fine now lets have some fun for all to see. What is a valve? See how complicated it just got. On your releaser you have a float valve and a vacuum/sap valve. The vacuum/sap valve is a flapper valve. It is held shut with vacuum AND gravity. Gravity gets it close and vacuum seals and holds it shut. It also holds the tank of sap in the tank. Until atmospheric pressure is allowed into the tank and once it equalizes the flapper opens until all the sap is gone or vacuum is restored. Now you have the float valve that is a simple mechanical .Bla Bela Bela type of valve. Its a variation of a toilet type valve. Then we have Check valves...........YIKES swing check, spring check, gravity type with rubber flapper or brass, Ball check with or without spring, Disk type with or without basket, Flapper that mounts vertical that relies on back pressure, adjustable spring checks for vacuum.............Its crazy. So what I'm getting at is when you say flapper valve I think of the one on my store bought Bernard that is rubber and relies on gravity and vacuum to work right.

OK so you want the CHECK valve to stop the surge cool, good. WILL there be enough vacuum in the tank during the dump cycle to keep the check valve shut. Will there be enough vacuum (volume) out in the woods to maintain vacuum during the dump cycle. That can be achieved with a vacuum tank/reservoir to keep a good constant vacuum source in the mainlines during the dump cycle so there is minimum vacuum drop?

[Haynes Forest Products]

Please if you ever call me to talk you down in an Airplane forget it you will run out of fuel before I explaine what a runway is:)

[500592]

So would a vacuum booster be needed right before the releaser or is that what the horizontal tank where the sap enters before entering the releaser

[Haynes Forest Products]

OH CRAP you want to know about vacuum boosters..............First tell me what a vacuum booster does and then we will all give our 2 cents...............COME ON it wont hurt.............................;)

[Haynes Forest Products]

Now keep in mine that there was a company about 10 years ago selling round plastic balls filled with colored water that would replace laundry detergent and they sold millions. I had a friend that was going to get rich selling them...............................I think I burst his bubble right before 60 minuets did:D

[500592]

Well if I put a six inch manifold about eighteen inches long I think that would be enough of a vacuum booster to the level of vac at the tap constant

[Haynes Forest Products]

Bigger is better:mrgreen: But back to the question What is a vacuum booster and how does it boost the vacuum level?

[3rdgen.maple]

500592 Are we talking the flapper valve? I have no dought that a lever actuated releaser can and will work. I agree that if the vacuum is dumped and the tank empties and the float takes time to close the vacuum to the releaser allowing most of the sap out is a good thing.......BUT if it allows the sap to surge back out to the trees and this is repeated every 5 minuets thats a bad thing. Your not only contaminating the trees with bacteria but your reducing the time that the trees are under vacuum reducing sap yield. Please don't misunderstand what I'm trying to say. I'm all for trying to build the best and cheapest releaser known to man. I just don't think compromising on ALL the important details is a good thing.

Spot on there Haynes. I have a brass check valve on the incomeing sap line going into the releaser. Yes there is a quick backflow of sap until the valve closes whis is less than a second I would guess but it will definately do it. I put a vac guage on the begining of the mailine about 800 feet away and watched the guage when it dumped and it maintained vac quite nicely. Now with all that said there are some steps I would take when one is running a setup such as this , new drops and taps or even better CV taps. I ran this setup about 2 weeks earlier than my gravity taps and when I pulled them they looked amazingly fresh but everything was brand new.

[3rdgen.maple]

Bigger is better:mrgreen: But back to the question What is a vacuum booster and how does it boost the vacuum level?

Haynes you just love beating these guys up with that vacuum "booster" bs dont you :D

[Haynes Forest Products]

YUP its a catchy name but very misleading and I only want traders to understand what things do and why. I must admit that until I got on the trader and expanded the information base I was full off wives tales and miss conceptions as to why things do what they do.

[3rdgen.maple]

YUP its a catchy name but very misleading and I only want traders to understand what things do and why. I must admit that until I got on the trader and expanded the information base I was full off wives tales and miss conceptions as to why things do what they do.

Your not alone on that one. I have learned quite a bit myself and put to rest many wives tales that were passed down to me from my elders that did not have the resources or the knowledge to know any better themselves. Now back to the "booster" that doesnt boost lol.

[500592]

Bigger is better:mrgreen: But back to the question What is a vacuum booster and how does it boost the vacuum level? al the vacuum booster does is when the releaser dump it just helps maintain vacuum level out in the bush it doesn't actually increase the vac level

[Haynes Forest Products]

Dang you gave him the answer. Good answer 500592. I think the term got started back when first trucks and cars had power brakes. They were vacuum assist and used a "vacuum booster" BUT the vacuum booster boosted the pressure on the master cylinder when you pushed on the brake pedal.

OK now I see a small vacuum brake bellows on a releaser they are cool and have more surface than a air cylinder.

[500592]

I think I figured out a better design and it would allow the releaser to dump all the sap and I thought if I used a float that went up and released the seal but there is a weighted levee that has just enough weight to allow the float to lower as the sap dumps the it hits a pin and the weight of the float brings the weighted lever down again so the seal reseals and then the float goes back up the guided till it hits a pin and process repeats again

[Ozy]

To get a longer cycle time allow the rod from the float to slide through the lever, put a collar at the top and another at the release point. You can adjust the collars to set the release and pickup point. The valve could be inside the tank or outside using a compression fitting with o-ring as someone else suggested.

[Ozy]

I guess it is a good idea to be sure you are at the end of the thread before you post a replysame idea pin or collar.