New evaporator with steam pans.

[deckers007]

Finally started working on the new rig for 2012, thought i would do a journal as i went, please feel free to post comments as i go.

[Haynes Forest Products]

Looks like the way they make limos. I would now add in the center section stretching it out a bit so you can get about 4 pans plumbed together.

[deckers007]

I was hoping to get 6 in there, do you think i am pushing it?

[500592]

Probably not just make sure it doesn't boil over

[Haynes Forest Products]

Its all about surface area and the heat you can get to it. I don't care what size you make boil over is always a problem. You can get tall sided restaurant pans and that can lesson the chance of boil over. We all strive to get sap as hot as possible............That is the proses. 1-2-3-4 pans it doesn't matter how many you have finding the proper balance between sap levels and amount of heat you get to the pans. Do what you think will work and get it up and running and OPs check it and enjoy YOUR creation.

[deckers007]

My plan is to extend with angle iron on a taper up to the back, as well as opening a hole in the bottom with an ash pan to get more air under the fire.

Also thinking of extending the fire box my 6 inches, just so I can get a bit more wood in there.

I read I could use angle iron for the grate with the point up, but also read that if you put the cup up it will fill with ash insolating the iron and preventing it from warping.

[deckers007]

Here is a "ROUGH" drawing, i ain't no computer drawing expert.

[RileySugarbush]

Angle steel works well for a grate. Put the points down and use at least 1/4" wall. Thicker is better. The ash in them will help insulate and the draft air keep them cool. As long as you have a good draft going through them it will be fine. Trouble happens when too many embers build up and the grates overheat.

[Haynes Forest Products]

I cant speak for the ash build up keeping them strong during the heating. BUT when it comes to angle iron it has more bending strength if the point/corner is towards the pressure.

[RileySugarbush]

Haynes,

An angle has exactly the same bending strength and stiffness in each direction when loaded on the diagonal as we are discussing.

[Haynes Forest Products]

Riley I'm not completely sold on your statement. I have built ramps from angle iron and felt you get less sag with the point up. BUT I will be interested in the stats because I'm always making crap from junk so let the discussion begin. I do have a hydraulic press with guage and angle scraps laying around so I will do some testing:)

[3rdgen.maple]

Okay Im jumping in on this one lol. If you were to stress a piece of angle iron with the point down what would happen is the metal would fold in on itself right, now with the point up it would have to stretch the metal in order to sag correct? So in my conclusion point up is stronger than point down because it will take more pressure to stretch the metal to bend it than to fold it in on itself.

[RileySugarbush]

3rd gen, I see your point. Assuming the shape is constant, I am right. As it deflects, Haynes becomes more correct based on what you point out. But, what kind of loads are we talking about here? I could drive a car over mine without failure.

If the grates get too hot they can fail more easily, but if you put them in point down, they don't get too hot!

I feel the advantage of having the cool draft air flowing over the inverted sloped surface and the insulation of the ashes in the angle far outweigh any strength issues. Certainly mine have not moved in all the years.

Another thing I have noticed: if you put the points up, the embers tend to fall in directly over the air gaps. All is good for quite a while, but eventually areas bridge over. With points down.... less bridging and blockage.

[3rdgen.maple]

Well I was speaking on terms of Haynes and your last couple post and there was no debate about the added influence of heat. :D You throw that into the equation then it all goes out the door. But in my mind heres what IM picturing based off a natural draft setup. With the point in the down position being used as grates there seems to me be a bigger area for air to get drawn up into the firebox almost like a funnel per say, so in theory the more air the cooler they would be plus the insulation of the ash built up in the channel I would say that would be the best choice. Now with the point up Im visualizing air hitting the opening of the channel and getting restricted. So in redneck fashion I conclude that you both are correct, Haynes I conclude would be correct in the strength of non heat related with the point up and Riley would be correct if heat is applied to the eqaution. :o

[deckers007]

Well thanks for all the posts, i guess i am going to have to put 50% point up, and 50% point down...that way i can take advantage of both air flow and strength.....lol. But before i go ahead, i sure would like to see the test results Haynes. I can not wait to post my next step. I like that everyone likes a good debate. When i taped my first 5 taps in 2011 i thought i was going nuts on how addictaed i became, but after finding this forum i realise that i am not first one to get hooked on the sugar...I am looking forword to some more debates as i my project unfolds. Thanks again for all the input, keep the thoughs rolling, and when this is complete i will call my creation..."The Trader"

[deckers007]

Does anyone know how close to the bottom of the flue the steam pans should be? Also should it taper from the firebox end to the stack end?

[deckers007]

Well i am almost done, just need to insolate and brick. Then it is test boil time!!!

One question, the rig is about 23" x 72" at the moment i have a 6" stack, but am worried it is too small. What do you all think?

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[Jec]

I would say minimum 8 max 10.

[500592]

Looks great you should put some copper drop tubes in the rear pans

[jmayerl]

On our 2x6 flat pan we experimented with different heights and ended up with the best boil at about 1.5 to 2 inch gap. Yours might be different because I think there will be a lot of turbulance under the pans from the gaps between them. You should go with a 8 inch stack and also try to get a transition from the evaporator to the stack. As it sits the heat won't get anywhere near the outside edges of the back pans.

[jfroe939]

Make sure that your stack is twice as long as your setup, too. Get as close to 12 feet of stack total as you can and depending how it boils, add another small segment to get to 14' or so. You can always close the draft a little, but if your stack is too short, you just can't get the draw that cranks your boil no matter what kind of wood you throw at it. If nothing else, make note of how it boils with a small stack and then do a second boil later with your added stack. Makes all the difference. I'm not saying anything most veterans know, but you'll be disappointed if you go into the season with a short stack. Shoot for "pan X 2." And if you already knew what I just said, ignore it. At least a rookie reading this will learn something new.

[Logan Cabin]

Hey, looks good! I built a small evaporator using an old filing cabinet last year, had four 12X16 steam table pans in it. Are you planning on connecting your pans? Currently planning to have mine welded together, connected with stainless tubing. Ladling from pan to pan was fine when he had folks around to help, got to be a bit much when it was just one or two of us.

[Ausable]

Wow! Deckers007 - Nice - All the Pans act like Drop Flues - are they interconnected - back and forth - for a flow-through effect? Can't wait to hear how Your test boil goes ---- looks great.

[deckers007]

Thanks Ausable, no they are not connected, and to tell you the truth I never thought of it. I think for this year i will just Laddle it over, it will be a lot of work, but well worth it! My plan was just to replace the steam pans with a custom drop flu pan in a couple of years.

[deckers007]

Just installed blanket insulation in the flu area, i was going to use 1/2" thick board under the brick in the firebox area, but ended up getting to much blanket so I think I will use it. I only want to put 1/2" insulation under the brick because i do not want to lose any more space. SO my question is, can i pull 1 inch blanket in half and install it under the brick, i know it will not have the same insulation value as 1 inch, but I figure it is better than nothing. I noticed on a smaller peace of blanket that it pulls in half quite nice into 2 1/2" thick peace’s. Also, has anyone ever used that high temp stove sealant to stick the blanket to wall of the firebox area before bricking?

[deckers007]

Got the bricks all fitted. Just have to cement them in now.

[deckers007]

I am finally done, what do you all think?


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[Z/MAN]

Good looking boiler!

[Kngowods]

How's it working I'm thinking about building one like this what is your gph

[Stu007]

Looking at all those pans is making me hungry!

[deckers007]

I am still fine tuning it, but so for I am getting about 15 gph with the preheater . I wraped 1/2 copper tubing around the stack around 12 times. I think I will have a drop flu pan custom made for it in a couple of years. Let me k ow if you have more questions. Good luck with your build.

[tuolumne]

I don't know sugaring too well, but I am a structural engineer and I can comment on the angle strength discussion. Legs down would be stronger, since one leg braces the other in the compression zone. When the legs are up, the compression zone is in an unbraced portion of the angle and they distort laterally. However, God demonstrates the "right" way to orient an angle in His design of the rhubarb stalk. There are many other such examples when we have our eyes open! Despite this, there are some compelling reasons to do this diffently in the said application, like storing ash in the angles for insulation as some have said. This situation is governed entirely by the heat effects on the steel, and not pure statics. I just like to use the rhubarb analogy.

[b116757]

Nice setup