Reversing pans, what size evap is this needed for?

[smokeyamber]

Ok, working on the design for a 2x5ish setup with drop flues ( copper tubes) and was wondering about the whole reversable pan thing. :confused:

Do you reverse the syrup pan or flue pan, how big does the rig have to be to warrant this ? I assume from reading here that it is a factor of how much you run through the evap. My barrel setup only got cleaned once this season, but only did 5 gallons.

Looking forward to building this thing, stuff like floats and preheaters sound real nice after dealing with 21hr boils :D

[SevenCreeksSap]

I hope some of these knowledgeable guys answer this. I'm working on the same size to go on a oil tank evap. I dont know whether to buy a 2x4 or build a 2x2 and 2x3 combination. Please dont think I'm hijacking your thread but maybe it can help us both.

[Waynehere]

I as well am in the process of re-constructing my little half pint 2x3 arch to a 2x6 with 2-2x3 pans. I got this from Warners Point's ideals as well as others that input to drop tube link below.

http://mapletrader.com/community/showthread.php?t=11661&page=3

I ordered a second 2x3 pan from Paul at

http://stainlesssteelcreations.net/masyeq.html

He has the equipment to cut the holes in the pan for me for a small price and so far has been great to work with. Can't wait to get my new pan and start the soldering. I will post some pics when I am finished later this summer. Please show and tell yours as well.

Thanks

[smokeyamber]

Looks like I will just make my own call on the reversing.:confused:.. Likely do the drop flue with a couple of dividers, my understanding it the syrup pan is where most sugar sand shows up:confused: ? So I could divide it somehow and plumb it to allow reversing without removing, either with plugs in the dividers or valving on both sides of the pan. Just not sure if all that work is necessary for a 2x5. May be a bigger pan once I get started. Of course my limiting factor is the sugar shack so expansion there could change everything :D

[Jeff E]

Sugar sand only becomes a problem after running a lot of sap through a pan. I may process 5000+ gallons of sap before needing to reverse the flow of sap in my pans. When things are at there worst, maybe every 2000 gallons of sap.

If you are not doing bigger volumes, I would not worry about it. It would be easier to just clean the whole pan if need be. Maybe you would pull of 15 gallons of sap to drain it.

With the bigger set ups, it would mean drawing of 60 gallons of sweetened sap, certainly to turn dark dark dark when put back in and finished.

The sugar sand does mainly build up in the last compartment, maybe a little in the second to last compartment of the syrup pan.
I will have sugar sand in my sap (drop flue) pan at the end of the season, but that is running RO'ed sap, 40K gallons.

A slight build up of sand is not going to wreck anything. If it gets thick on the bottom of your pan, it will mess up your boil, and potentially lead to scortching your pan.

[SevenCreeksSap]

Okay Smokeyamber, I have the same idea you have so maybe we can talk through it. I'm thinking of 2 pans with the sap pan having dividers running lengthwise parallel to the length of the oil tank, and about 20 - 2 in dia stainless drop flues based on the Warners Point idea. The syrup pan with 2 dividers running side to side to keep the heat more even on the finishing sweet. I dont have any ideas on how to have the pans separate and not leaking sap into the firebox.
If your thinking plugs, what kind of plugs? rubber? hard plastic? or screw in copper? how would you plug it without boiling your fingers?
If your thinking valving what do you mean? ball valves with the handle sticking up? I can see that working but how about a seal between the two pans while attached?
I'm thinking two pans because I do this by myself a lot and dont want to try to lift or empty a 2x5.

[smokeyamber]

Now based on what Jeff E mentioned maybe this is overkill:o, I only make around 5 gallons now, likely go to 10-15 next year. If the front pan is a 2x2 I could just setup a single connection with ball valves to allow me to disconnect it from the flue pan for cleaning. Best part it this is SIMPLE !:D

SevenCreeksSap, just to continue the swappable pan idea, I was thinking of inlets into the syrup pan on both sides. Ball valves to control which is the active inlet. Syrup pan would have 2 dividers with maybe something like a simple slide to open or close on the ends of each to control the flow ( they would have handles sticking up ? ). With that setup you would just change valves and sliders and not have to lift the syrup pan out.

[SPILEDRIVER]

smokey-i made 25 gallons this year on a 2x5(2X3 DROP flue)and 2x2 divided syrup and never once had a problem with sand or needing to clean for it.dont fret it .

[SevenCreeksSap]

Okay Smokey I can see the valve setup and was only thinking one valve myself. I'm still learning all of this and mostly from this site. I think reverse flow may be overkill right now for me too. What I still cant picture is the pan connection. Are the bottoms of both pans at the same height? or shoulld the sap pan be slightly (or a couple inches) above the syrup pan? If thats the case I need to reconfigure the cuts on my tank to make the rear pan higher.
I'm having a local welder make my pans and need to draw them up.

[3rdgen.maple]

I have said it before and will say it again and will get debated on it over and over but I am a true believer that anything 2x6 and under is a waste of time and money to set it up for reversing the flow to eliminate niter buildup. If you get any significant amount of niter its worthless. There is not enough surface area to push the niter out before it starts to build up on the opposite side before the reversed side is clean again. And another note to throw you guys off is that niter varies from year to year and from area to area. Just because a guy tells you they have no problems running 5 million gallons of sap through their pans before reversing or cleaning does not mean a guy 10 miles down the road wont. I will give you a prime example, 2 seasons ago I had to clean my pans every 4 to 5 hours there was so much niter buildup. That is about every 150 to 200 gallons of sap. This past year I had to do 2 clean ups due to niter buildup all season, which was around 2500 gallons of sap each time. I make it a habit to due a cleanup before every boil and only twice I had niter buildup. It sure was a nice break from having to do a cleanup 4 to 5 times a day. I have a 2x6 that you revers the sugar pan on and after the first couple times and scortching a quarter size spot in that pan from it not working fast enough I gave up and and pull the pan and clean it. It helps alot having 2 syrup pans as you have one clean and ready to go at all times.

[smokeyamber]

Spiledriver and 3rdGen , thanks for the input, it is awesome to hear form experience vs. relying on "theory". Sounds like a spare pan is better on a smaller rig ? I actually had a niter issue this year on my crude hotel pan batch setup, didn't know what is was until I checked here and then it cleaned up nice with the vinegar trick.

Seven creeks, my idea on connection is to have the syrup and flue pan at same height, the flues will not get emptied until the last boil of the season and then I plan to just lift the pan out and drain. Connection will have valves on both the syrup and flue pan with a union connection between them to allow me to remove either pan and leave the other full.

Flue design I am looking is the 3/4 copper tubes like RileySugarbush has built.

Still scoping out old bedframes for the arch build, have one so far, need a few more. Then I can mock up arch and build the pans. Plenty to do before next spring ! :lol:

[wiam]

I have to agree with 3rdgen about reversing a 2x2 front pan. If mine has built up it is in 3 of the 4 compartments. Usually I can go about 4 hrs before it is built up. That is about what I boil on the average day so I drain the front pan when done and fill the hot pan with permeate. Before boiling the next day the nitre will brush right off.

Will

[SevenCreeksSap]

+ 1 on the input. I'd be lost without this site. You made the lightbulb come on with the connections. I'm not a plumber and havent been close enough to a real evaporator to see the connections, There will just be a gap between the pans for the connection, right? Have to measure good so the pans don't come out long counting the connections.
Bought a welder today. woo hoo. just for the steel. have to wait to learn about tig.

[smokeyamber]

Seven creeks, the connections come off the side of the pans so if you plan it carefully the pans can be right up against each other, this is how the pro's build them, look at pictures of Leader's stuff.

Other things to plan for are a float box and pre-heater, float box off the side of the flue pan is something I want on my setup, then I will steal... er... borrow a float design from here. :lol: This build will be a huge step up from my batch setup and hopefully keep me from doing my 20hr boils :D

Have fun with the welder and if you haven't done it before take a course on welding it helps alot !

[SevenCreeksSap]

Duh! - I'd have seen the error of my design when flames were shooting up between the gap in my pans. I need to do some more reading and designing before I hire the tig guy. I've welded a lot of steel on cars but never stainless. Thanks for all the comments and again didnt mean to steer your original thread away from your reverse flow questions. Might have to start a thread on my build from start to finish.