Would this pump work on an electric releaser?

[heus]

Its stainless, 1 hp, plenty of head, and very inexpensive ($149). Do I really need an $800 Gould sap pump from the maple catalogs? At this price I would buy two in case I needed a backup. I will be pumping around 175 feet with 16-18 feet of head to my sugarhouse. This would be hooked up to a Bernard electric releaser in a heated shed with 300-450 taps.
http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200311411_200311411

[500592]

Why couldn't you use just a regular glould well pump

[heus]

Do you mean like a shallow well jet pump?

[ToadHill]

I've had two pumps hooked to electric releasers that had the seals ruined by the vacuum. I now have a thermoplastic pump that I bought from Leader and I have had no problems with it.

[500592]

Ya I meant the shallow well kind

[maple flats]

unless you are growing a lot that pump or any pump of similar size is far more than you need. Are you just looking to transfer after the releaser dumps? That is not a vacuum pump and trying to use the suction it creates to be your vacuum is not likely to work. If you are only at 65 +/- taps you might try a sap sucker, no releaser needed.

[heus]

unless you are growing a lot that pump or any pump of similar size is far more than you need. Are you just looking to transfer after the releaser dumps? That is not a vacuum pump and trying to use the suction it creates to be your vacuum is not likely to work. If you are only at 65 +/- taps you might try a sap sucker, no releaser needed.

No, it would be the pump connected to the electric releaser that empties the releaser after being triggered by a pressure switch. It would need to be pumped about 150 uphill to the sugarhouse with about 16-18 feet of rise. There would be no "dumping" because its not a mechanical releaser. This would be for 300-450 taps and more in the future.

[brookledge]

I think it will matter the amount of vacuum you are planning on. High vacuum might be a problem but it would probably work for medium
Keith

[heus]

brookledge it will be a gast 3040 vacuum pump Ill be happy with 18"

[heus]

I dug up my old thread from a while back because I am contemplating vacuum again. I am still interested in finding out if this centrifugal pump would be ok to empty an electric releaser and pump sap uphill 150 or so feet at 16-20 feet of rise. On medium vac, say 17-19hg, do you think this would work without the seals getting ruined? I still cant stomach spending $800 on a Gould stainless pump from Leader or wherever. Or will I just buy a sap puller? Cant make up my mind.

[rchase]

there are couple of bigger sugarmakers in my area that lay down deep well pumps in horizonal electric releasers. they use up to 5hp pumps and run them on vfd's. can you put a small deep well pump in the releaser?

[NH Maplemaker]

heus, I think that pump will work just fine for what you have disscribed! I also use an electric releaser and use a shallow well pump about the same size as yours. As brookledge said, if your vacuum gets to high pump may have trouble pumping and releaser will fill up. Then the vacuum pump suck sap into it's self and you know the rest of the story! Jim L.

[MilesTeg]

I run an electrical releaser, the kind leader sells and is white. I had to buy a new pump for it last season because the heat lamp fell on our old pump and burned out a plastic plug on the pump head. After talking to a few people they couldnt believe the style of pump that was on it, they said it was a few generations old and were very problematic. So I bougth a new SS gould pump i spent far less that $800. I bought mine from glenn goodrich I would def check out their prices before you try another style pump or a SS from anywhere else. The vacuum shouldnt make too much a difference on the actual operation of the pump it's self as long as you hook aup a balance line from the releaser to the discharge side of the pump head. But as stated before I'm not too sure how well the seals in the unit that you linked would hold out. If there is any leak in the system it doesn't work at all, most pumps aren't strong enough to over come the differential pressures caused by a leak. I hope this makes sense and helps.

[rchase]

The vacuum shouldnt make too much a difference on the actual operation of the pump it's self as long as you hook aup a balance line from the releaser to the discharge side of the pump head.the vacuum makes a huge difference of the operation of the pump. i have a small electric releaser that has a pump in it that will pump 34 ft of head. it will only pump out a max of 25"hg. if the vacuum gets higher then that the pump will cavitate and the releaser will fill up and flood the pump.

[MilesTeg]

the vacuum makes a huge difference of the operation of the pump. i have a small electric releaser that has a pump in it that will pump 34 ft of head. it will only pump out a max of 25"hg. if the vacuum gets higher then that the pump will cavitate and the releaser will fill up and flood the pump.

Then maybe that's why the industry standard is the SS Gould pump for that reason. I do know a few people that run them at 27 in hg with no problems. But what I was referring to in that sentence that if you have a balnce line installed then the pump isn't fighting to pump against the vacuum. But I do agree vacuum is a powerful force and if the pump isn't rated for that level of vacuum the cavitation is a real concern. Now for your case if the pump can't pump against that level of vacumm it very well could be the internal seals. What type of pump do you use if you don't mind me asking.

[noreast maple]

it is on the out side of the realeaser so vac shouldnt be prblem, it should be big enough to push sap that distance. it doesnt have to suck sap cause when the float triggers the elec. it will dump into this pump ,then this pump pumps it to your holding tank.

[wiam]

it is on the out side of the realeaser so vac shouldnt be prblem, it should be big enough to push sap that distance. it doesnt have to suck sap cause when the float triggers the elec. it will dump into this pump ,then this pump pumps it to your holding tank.

It does not matter whether it is inside or outside the releaser, the pump still has to overcome the vacuum level that is on your system.

[Mark]

I have a couple Goulds NPE's on my electric extractor. One is a 1st and the other is a 2st. The 2st pumps much better. Some think the 1st,2st and 3st are the number of stages but that is wrong, they are all single stage. The problem that I have had is when the vacuum gets about 24 inches or so it lifts the seal off the stationary part and lets air in then the the pump cavitates. I have not tried a stronger spring on the seal yet.

[heus]

OK what about this Goulds 1/2 hp shallow well pump?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Goulds-JRS5-Shallow-water-Well-Jet-Pump-1-2-hp-/130810815449?pt=BI_Pumps&hash=item1e74eea3d9

[rchase]

that pump will only suck 25ft high. if i was to guess i would say that it would pump out under 19"hg max.

[heus]

But it has over 100 ft of head. Isnt that what is important not the lift?

[Mark]

OK what about this Goulds 1/2 hp shallow well pump?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Goulds-JRS5-Shallow-water-Well-Jet-Pump-1-2-hp-/130810815449?pt=BI_Pumps&hash=item1e74eea3d9
I think that pump has an internal venturi, you don't want that one. Tractor Supply has a pump that looks like the thermoplastic one that Leader sells. I might get one for my flue pan washer.
http://www.tractorsupply.com/countyline-reg-1-1-2-hp-thermoplastic-sprinkler-pump-1028141

[heus]

Mark would that TSC pump work for my situation?

[Mark]

It probably would depending on how high a vacuum you are going to but not sure. I would hate to find out it did not when the sap started flowing. If I go high enough I even start having problems with my Goulds. It looks like the one Leader sells, if it is it would work for sure. If you could figure that out it would be a good cheap pump.

https://www.leaderevaporator.com/p-252-thermal-plastic-sap-pumps.aspx

[heus]

OK what about this one?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-Goulds-GT07-Irri-gator-3-4-HP-irrigation-spriknler-surface-water-well-pump-/251195718439?pt=BI_Pumps&hash=item3a7c6e7b27

[DanE.]

I would think you would want one similar to this:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/G-L-Centrifugal-Stainless-Steel-Pump-Model-SSH-5-HP-IMP-DIA-4-5-8-/130816679326?pt=BI_Pumps&hash=item1e75481d9e

It is 100% SS - no rusting. This one is old and beat up but they do show up new for around 2-300 depending on the model.

here is a link to G&L model spec sheet:

http://pumpcatalog.com/productlist.php?companyid=11&categoryid=159

There is a formula out there (somewhere) that you can use to calculate the amount of lift you need to over come the amount of vacuum you plan on running. I can't find it at the moment.

Not sure if this helps or not..... Dane.

[GeneralStark]

OK what about this one?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-Goulds-GT07-Irri-gator-3-4-HP-irrigation-spriknler-surface-water-well-pump-/251195718439?pt=BI_Pumps&hash=item3a7c6e7b27

Depends upon the vacuum levels you are trying to achieve. At 25' of suction potential, that pump probably won't handle vacuum much over 20".

I personally don't think shallow well pumps are suitable for electric releasers in high vacuum applications. Submersible pumps of the appropriate rating for your flow and vacuum placed inside the releaser or a "sidecar" chamber connected to the main chamber are the way to go IMO.

At least this is what I am looking at designing for 2014.

[heus]

60786079I have just purchased this Dayton thermoplastic centrifugal pump on Ebay for 89.00. It retails for almost 600.00. As long as it is in good working condition (which seller claims it is) I assume this will be ok for my setup (350 taps with Gast 3040 vac pump and Lapierre electric releaser)? I realize 1.5 hp is overkill but I went for the deal.

[heus]

Does anyone have any opinions on this pump?

[Buffalo Creek Sugar Camp]

It will probably be ok for 20" or less. I had a similar pump and had to replace once a year becuase the vacuum destroyed the seals. At night when the the woods froze up and vacuum went to 27", the pump would suck air and loose prime. Then the vacuum pump which was a liquid ring water cooled, would flood when the sap started running. I am in the process right now of converting my releaser to a sump pump instead of the external pump.

[heus]

It just seems that maybe electric is not the way to go as far as releaser style. Even with the best Goulds pumps I hear people saying that seals get ruined quickly due to the vacuum. If I dont get an electric releaser I may just use this to transfer sap from my storage tank to the head tank at the sugarhouse.

[Buffalo Creek Sugar Camp]

I think that if you have electric, an electric releaser is the way to go. Mechanicals work great, but everytime it dumps, you get backflow, and introduce air into the system. My goal is to eliminate vacuum leaks, and an electric releaser helps eliminate the leak a mechanical causes.

[delivron]

Using a pump on an electric releaser one must remember that between cycles the vacuum may suck the impeller dry. The pump has to be strong enough to pull against the vacuum to get it's prime. The pump must be installed equal or below the release point in the releaser. Keep the pipe short and air tight.

[heus]

Has anyone ever tried to rig up a switch so that the vacuum pump turns off when the water pump turns on?

[wiam]

I see no advantage to this.


Has anyone ever tried to rig up a switch so that the vacuum pump turns off when the water pump turns on?

[DanE.]

I see no advantage to this.

Maybe he does not have enough power to run both at the same time? Dane

[Paddymountain]

you could put some kind of electrical drive to slow down your pump ,or at least a valve that you could bleed down your vacuum some to let your pump empty your releaser. that way you would still have vacuum on your lines

[Buffalo Creek Sugar Camp]

I would not put any kind of switch on to limit vacuum. If you already have the electric releaser, convert it to a submersable pump.

[heus]

I just thought it would save the seals and allow the pump to work better. I looked through some of mapleman3's postings and he did something similar a few years back. Never heard how it turned out though.

[Paddymountain]

I was just thinking ,if your pump wasn't strong enough to overcome say 20" of vacuum you could partially unload it to maybe 15 so your pump would pump it out. You would still have vacuum on your lines then

[heus]

How much of a difference in sap volume could I expect going from 19 to 15hg of vac?

[noreast maple]

Heus, Just thinking to myself ang figured Id run it by you, What would happen if you put a check valve in the pipe where it comes out of releaser? dont know if it would help overcome vac. or not ? Ive got an electric one also that i just purchased and am following your thread to learn myself . just curious to what you and others thought.:confused:

[heus]

noreast I really dont know but maybe someone could chime in on that. Im still torn between an electrical and mechanical releaser. If I go mechanical the pump I bought will be permanently installed in the sugarhouse to transfer sap from my storage tank on the outside wall to thehead tank above.

[Paddymountain]

I'm not really qualified to say much about vacuum yet. Last year I had 30 taps on a Surge BB2 running at 20" and went from an average of 6-7 gal per tree to 13.3 gal.
That being said , I didn't run the pump as much as I could of. I never ran it overnight or anything. I just figured it wasn't worth it. This year I have about 80 taps on it and
will run it more. I think on one of the Cornell webinairs on tubing and vacuum they stated the difference between lower and higher vacuum amounts pulled in. Also I'm using a Surge electric milkhouse receiver designed to operate at 15' for milking,but it will empty fairly easy at 20" ,much more and I don't think the pump could overcome the vacuum.

[noreast maple]

I dont know myself ,but just thinking with a check valve it couldntsuck the prime away from the pump, therefore it might not be able to pull on seal. just athought to run by you , I myself think it would work. Sounds logical to me ,That way icould set releaser and pump in warm sugarhouseand pump it back out to holding tanks .

[schellmaple]

I have a small vacuum pump capable of high vacuum (27 hg) and 5cfm. I built a electric releaser out of a 16 gallon beer keg with a shallow well pump to empty it. The problem I am having is the shallow well pump will not empty over about 15 -18 hg. Do you guys think the submersible or deep well pump will empty this OK? I have a 1" port coming out of the bottom of the keg, do you think this would be enough to support or feed the deep well pump if that is the way I go?

Thanks, Brian

[noreast maple]

dont know for sure , am just learning all this myself and really dont know ,sorry.