Updated Tubing Installation

[FarmerJohn]

Have a vacuum tubing installation with single mainlines. Saw Dr. Perkins paper, "dynamics of Sap and Vacuum Flow" and am interested in the double mainlines with a u-shaped manifold between. Can anyone explain how this system works? What are the two lines feeding the manifold and where does the single line coming out of the manifold go? Anyone out there have experience with this set up?

[brookledge]

I'm assuming you are refering to a wet/dryline system. When you are trying to get vacuum(air) to move through the mainline it will travel faster than the sap can. Consequently it creates turbulances in the flow of the sap and slows the vacuum transfer.
So with the wet/dry lines you want to remove the air from the main that is carrying So the main line on top is a dry line. The wet line is carrying sap and air (tree gasses). When the sap reaches the manifold/booster it allows the gasses to rise while leaving the sap on the bottom. This way the sap flows nice and smooth and the air is free to move as it needs in the top line
Keith

[FarmerJohn]

My system is 1-1/4 mainline. So I would add a vacuum line above it and run back to the bush? What is the connection for the third line coming out of the manifold ?

[Thad Blaisdell]

The 1 1/4 line coming out of the releaser you would make the top line, dry line, add a 1 inch (or for 500 taps all you would really need is 3/4) under that for the wet line. This would now be called a conductor line, (both the top and bottom line). Then where your mainlines branch off, you need to add what is called a manifold. Simply put this is just connecting both pipes to the one main line.

You may not see any improvement as your one 1 1/4 line is probably able to handle the 500 taps. The one big improvement that you might see is temp of your sap.

How large of pipe do you use for your mainlines. The ones connecting to the 1 1/4 and running out for your laterals.

[brookledge]

In my experience the pipe size that connects the two mainlines should be a minimum of 2-3 times larger than the mainlines. You want to make sure that the sap can't jump up into the dry line, just let the air and gasses up. So if the connecting line is small it will in a sense act like a sap ladder letting sap jump up into the dry line.
I use both 3" and 4" pvc pipe for mine and they are about 16-18" tall
Keith

[lew]

Brookledge

If there are no, or minimal leaks, how can sap jump up to your dry line. With everything sealed properly, there should be no, or very little air to flow up into the dry line, which is what would carry your sap up.

[maple flats]

The manifold is what separates the sap from the air (gasses). It is best to have a section that is larger than the branch to slow the flow of gasses enough so sap does not ride up with the rush of gasses. No laterals enter the wet line directly, they all enter into a branch that then enters the wet/dry system at the manifold.
This being said, my older wet dry is 3/4" branch lines entering a 1 x1 x 3/4 tee. The tee is vertical. The sap/gasses enter the tee and the sap drops while the gas rises. Mine are made from Leader 30P light blue tubing and I see no mist rising. However I suspect a slight amount might rise. My next generation of manifolds will be 2" tees, with the 3/4 or 1" branches entering and a 3/4 wet if fewer than 600 taps, 1" wet from 600-800 taps, 1.25" for 800-1400 taps and 1.5" where above 1400 taps. The dry line is always at least 1 size larger than the wet. My new bush will have all of these sizes, as I will end with up to 2500-3000 taps eventually. I am designing the lower section to handle the eventual max even though the first year will only have about 600 taps. Within the next couple of years after that it will hit the max and I don't want to have to change the size on such a young tubing system. The sizes mentioned for each tap count are still being studied but these are my initial thoughts. I just saw a nice looking pre made leader manifold that I may consider, with a 2" Tee in transparent PVC, and SS rings at the threads, then reducing to the branch, wet and dry sizes as needed. The one I saw was 3/4 or 1" branch, 1" wet and 1.25" dry all connected to the 2" PVC tee. I have always made my own but will price these out since the looked like far fewer parts and parts = time and $ to assemble. My manifolds leave the wet about 12" below the dry line. Any branch line should never have more taps than the guides indicate for a single line set up. In Leader's catalog and likely others as well as in the North American Maple Syrup Producers Manual there are charts to guide branch or single line systems based on tap count. A branch and conductor lines should follow the contour as much as possible to give 2-5% if at all possible, then the laterals should be as steep as possible, and no more that 100' long and strive for 5 taps per, never more than 10 on a lateral in a vacuum system.

[brookledge]

Lew
the trees give off gas(not sure if it is CO2 or O2) but even if you have a tight system there is still gasses present. and the fact that the air can travel through the mainline much faster since there is less resistance in the dry line only makes the possibiliteis even greater that the sap can climb up into the dry line if the manifold is not large enough.
Also the more you have the less likely it will happen
Keith

[markcasper]

Its funny this post has popped up.....good timing. I have one area of bush that resembles a horseshoe, with the bottom closed end of the horseshoe being the bottom of the hill. I need to run one straight wet/dry about 400 ft from the tank to the bottom of the horseshoe without anything b/c there are no taps there (it was a clear cut area 27 years ago) My question is what to do? I need the wet/dry to continue an a horseshoe pattern. or basically need 2 wet/drys coming out of the one in order to follow both sides of the hill. (Figure the center of the horseshoe as the steepest part, one half slopes to the west, the other to the east. Can I just put a T or Y in where I need to seperate them? This would be the easiest. There is only probably 400-450 taps max and was going to go with 3/4"wet, 1" dry. or should I just put a 1" line in and be done with it and to heck with the wet/dry. ?There is just a 3/4" there now with 300 taps and have learned that is probably too small, especially with the extra taps I am going too add. In addition, my neighbor has some right to the north and he will most likely allow me in his and I can just extend the line right on into his. Its about the length of a "40" from tank to end of mainline.

[lew]

Brookledge,

I realize there are gasses coming from the tree each time it runs. By having a manifold that is 2-3 times larger than you lateral main means I take that to mean if you are running a 3/4 lateral main then you would need a 1 1/2 to 2 inch manifold. I have seen that this is the industry norm. I did some experimenting in my woods this year and added on 600 new taps and used 3/4 inch lateral mains with 1" wet and dry lines. I used 1" T's for my manifolds. No lateral main had more than 100 taps on it. I saw no sap in my dry line and had excellent vacuum transfer. If I were to have 2-300 taps on a lateral main, I think I would go back to the larger size manifold as you and the industry suggest. But whith smaller amounts of sap coming down the line, there isn't much splashing around going on in the manifold, unless there is a leak. making these things out of stainless steel, size matters, bigger is a lot more expensive. If memory serves me corrrectly, I have about $50 into a 1" manifold with valves. If I went to a 1 1/2 inch I think it would be about $90+. Just food for thought.

[Thad Blaisdell]

Its funny this post has popped up.....good timing. I have one area of bush that resembles a horseshoe, with the bottom closed end of the horseshoe being the bottom of the hill. I need to run one straight wet/dry about 400 ft from the tank to the bottom of the horseshoe without anything b/c there are no taps there (it was a clear cut area 27 years ago) My question is what to do? I need the wet/dry to continue an a horseshoe pattern. or basically need 2 wet/drys coming out of the one in order to follow both sides of the hill. (Figure the center of the horseshoe as the steepest part, one half slopes to the west, the other to the east. Can I just put a T or Y in where I need to seperate them? This would be the easiest. There is only probably 400-450 taps max and was going to go with 3/4"wet, 1" dry. or should I just put a 1" line in and be done with it and to heck with the wet/dry. ?There is just a 3/4" there now with 300 taps and have learned that is probably too small, especially with the extra taps I am going too add. In addition, my neighbor has some right to the north and he will most likely allow me in his and I can just extend the line right on into his. Its about the length of a "40" from tank to end of mainline.

As I understand this, total taps in the horseshoe is 450? or just one side. What would the length of pipe be going right/left. Then what length would the lats be coming down to the horse shoe? How many taps on the neighbors?

[markcasper]

Thad,

I guess a better analagy would be a saucepan with a long handle on a stove top with a bowed out bottom.

If laying on its side, the open end would face north, the bottom would face south. There is a gradual slope to the south of the whole ridge, with 1/2 of the ridge sloping east, the other 1/2 west. The current mainline comes up from the south (400 feet) then it breaks into a T with one main going northwest and then north, while the other goes straight north and then curves slowly to the east picking up the lats. (hence the saucepan with long handle concept)

As it stands now, there is 100 taps on the northwest segment. There are about 200 taps flowing into the main that goes straight north from the T and then east via 3 more T's with short segments running straight west/north west to reach the first taps. (confusing I know)

The section that goes northwest is where I can run into the neighbors and don't know for sure how many are up there on his, but not more than 100 taps. Its about 900 feet from that first T to the neighbors fence line, hence not more than 1300 feet from the tank to end of mainline. From the western most mainline running north, the lats. would flow down hill to the west and its 250 feet from the top of the ridge to the mainline on the north end of my property. Remember the whole ridge slopes gradually south, but east and west at the same time. (hence the horseshoe) The east side of this ridge is basically the same, except it would run into the other side.

Since its 250 feet from the top of the ridge to the mainline on the north end, I am going to have to put in 3/4'' mains about halfway up this ridge and run them parallel with the ridge so that the lats are kept to a minimum. I then will have to tie these into the wet/dry at some point.

[markcasper]

Oh boy this is getting me frustrated.

A different scenario.....imagine a horshoe with the open end facing south. The interior of the horseshoe was clearcut in the early 80's. The grade in that area is 2-6 percent and the whole thing faces south/southwest. My dad was going to break it for farming but never did. Around the perimeter of the horseshoe is where the trees are b/c it got too steep and they quit cutting. The system I described in the previous post covers the western half of this horseshoe.

[adk1]

gonna buy the Spinning Jenny from TSC today. curious to know if you can use it for lateral line as well, or not really needed?

[3rdgen.maple]

ADK you again are way overthinking the whole process. Skip the spinning genny your only putting in 150 taps. Save the money for CV's and no you dont need it for laterals.

[Flat Lander Sugaring]

gonna buy the Spinning Jenny?

Is that one of the girls down at the adult club? if so I will pay for half:D

[adk1]

already bought it, TSC for $30. Nice to have. Figured that if I were to expand, it maybe useful. Hell, I bought 4000' of 12.5ga wire and only need 800! haha. My brother in laws operation can use it when they need to as they are just starting to now use poly tubing.

[DrTimPerkins]

(not sure if it is CO2 or O2)

During the spring sap flow season it is primarily CO2. Trees must respire like many living organisms do. it is only during the process of photosynthesis (in leaves) that O2 is released.