gravity tubing installation

[lew]

Over the years, recomedations on tubing installations have changed. They used to push putting as many as 80 taps ona single 5/16 line (on good slope) to develop a natural vaccum. Over the years, the Number of taps on a lateral line has decreased as well as the length. Mainline diameters for a given number of taps has increased. We have tried the different recomendations with verying degrees of success. My queston is, what are the latest recomendations for a gravity tubing system, number of taps per line, mainline diameter for a given number of taps, etc.?

[maplehound]

Lew
I don't know about main line but they recomend trying to get about 5 taps per 5/16 lateral line and no more than 8-10 depending on who you talk to.
Ron

[Jay]

Lew as far as mainline goes I talked to alot of different people. I was going with 1/2 main at first and just about all said to use 3/4. Now I only have 100 on 1 main and 100 on the other, would 1/2 have worked.......yea I think so but I think the difference in price between 1/2 and 3/4 was about 4.00 per 100' or so that one reason I went with 3/4. Also the sap bush I am tapping is young and every year I should be able to add more taps so a few years from now I dont say S%&# I should have went with 3/4,LoL. Taps on the lat.... I was told by a few different people that about 8. I have from 4 to 14 on mine, I think 8 or 10 or whatever "THEY" are recommending this year should be used as a guide. This is my first year with tubbing so what I know and state is what I found out by talking to people on this board and at meetings and show and such.

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

I have seen people put 40+ taps on 5/16" lateral and make 1/3+ gallon per tap gravity. 8O I wouldn't recommend that many but one thing you have to remember is the people that make these guidelines are in it to sell more of their products or they are funded by the equipment manufactures. :D Less taps you put on a lateral line equates to more pipeline sales and more fittings. Few $$$ per producer soon adds up to big $$$ over a year. :D

[Maple Hill Sugarhouse]

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[MASSEY JACK]

I WAS TOLD IF ON VACUUM, STRIVE FOR 5 AND NO MORE THAN 10. IF NO VACUUM THEN STRIVE FOR 10 AND NO MORE THAN 20 TAPS PER LINE. I HAD A LINE WITH 35 TAPS ON IT ON A STEEP SLOPE LAST YEAR. ON A DECENT RUN I GOT A GALLON PER TAP. IT WOULD RUN OVER A 32 GALLON CAN BEFORE I COULD GET HOME TO COLLECT IT.

[maple flats]

Jack, you need a bigger tank to collect into, that way it won't run on the ground.

[lew]

Most of the info I hear today is about vaccum. The fewer the taps on a line the better, some say 5 as a max. I was talking to some one that read a research report that indicated that actually 1 tap per lateral was the best, but not economically feasible. I am not going to run this new woods on vacuum. I have had lots of experience with gravity systems, but we always have torn them down to wash them. This new woods we are getting ready to set up will be permanent. So I guess I really want to know how long I can make my lateral lines and still be able to wash them in place. I have a homemade tubing washer with air compressor and pressure washer. I have only used it in the woods that we ran vacuum on, so the lines were all short.
Over the years i have run lines with as many as 120 taps on a single 5/16 line. This particular line was run across a dead flat, wide hedge row. We had to build in grade by raising the tubing 2 inches between each and every tree. Then we ran a lot of branch lines off of it to get more trees (these branch lines had plenty of slope). At the end of the hedge row the tubing ran across a pasture for about 600 feet but at a steep slope. It ran down to a 400 gallon stock tank. Most decent days it was full or running over. This seems to advance the theory of natural vacuum, but there is no wy i could wash that line in place.
I realize I am rambling on but one more thought. Can a line be too short in a gravity system? On a slow day would the line vapor lock because of too little sap flow? What do you think?

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

For some of you guys who know more than I do and always dispute what I say about how many taps can go on a lateral line, what do you think about that?? 120 taps and running over 400 gallon stock tank in a day's time. :D :D :D :D :D :D

I am telling you I know guys that put 40 to 50 taps on a single 5/16" line and make way more syrup per tap than me and I never go over 20. 8O It is all a money making scheme, 1 tap per vaccuum line 8O 8O 8O , give me a break. :lol: :lol: :lol:

[sweetwoodmaple]

Ever try blowing through a 25 or 50' section of 5/16 line? Get much air out the other end? I believe you can only push about 2 psi or so from your lungs confortably. The tees and spiles only make this worse.

Pressure drop does come into play here, especially in a gravity system. The less restriction the better. But, if you figure that a great run occurs in just a few hours, so if you say 20 taps per lateral @ 1 gallon per tap, that's less than 3 oz of water per minute. I would think the pressure drop would be negligible. But, if you get 50 or 60 taps and figure the pressure drop for the Tee's etc....hmm...I don't know.

Also, figure about 4 psi per 10' of drop for water, so that definately helps things along as well, so you could make up for pressure drop that way as long as you don't live in Ohio or somewhere with no slope.

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

Brian,

I totally agree and don't recommend it to anyone. I think up to 10 on vaccum and up to 20 is fine on gravity if you have lots of slope. Not much slope, then 15.

But, explain to me how you can make 1/3+ gallon per tap with 40 or more lines on some 5/16 or run over a 400 gallon tank with 120 taps on 5/16 line?? I don't know how it keeps from blowing the entire line apart. 8O

[themapleking]

From what "they" say in a gravity system You can get vacuum reading of 8" but the lines have to be full to get that reading. If the lines are less than full than you will not get a vacuum.
I say for those of you with out a vacumm pump, just install a vacumm gauge at the end you you main line and see if you get a reading and how much sap is in the line. I never tested my lines for vacuum untill I installed a vacuum pump.
They also say to get max sap per tap. You should only have 1 tap per line and replace your lines every year or two. Ya right :roll:
Good sales pitch. Who's smoking what in their pipes :wink:
In a perfect world we would all have 5% trees and making 2 gals syrup per tap

[Jay]

You mean that I am the only one??? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[Maple Hill Sugarhouse]

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[maplehound]

Lew
When it coes to pumping fluid through lines, Length doesn't matrer, only elevation. My plumber (who often helps me when it comes to pumping problems) tells me that you get 2 feet of rise for every pound of pressure that a pump puts out. It doesn't really matter over what distance that line runs.
As far as vaccuume and size of tubing goes. I tried once to run a 1 1/2 hp vaccuume pump through a 1/2 inch line, over 900 ft to a 300 gal vacuume tank and never got any vaccuume to the tank. I switched it to a 1" line and never had any trouble. So I guess the same would be true with the 5/16 lines over a long distance. I try never to get more than 100' on my 5/16 and currently only have 2 runs with 10 taps on them, the rest have less than 8. Seems to work fine for me.
Ron

[Maple Hill Sugarhouse]

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[maplehound]

I was able to run water through the line though. Since after I installed the 1' line I sued the 1/2 inch to supply cleaning water back to the tank. You do say though that you had 2-1/2' lines, maybe that made the diffrence. All I do know is that mine sure wasn't efficently transfering vaccuume.
Ron

[sweetwoodmaple]

Ron - Yes, length doesn't matter as long as you don't care how much flow rate you have. It will get there eventually. (Pressure x Flow)/1714 = Horsepower. So, when pressure drop goes up, the flow has to go down if you have the same energy going into the water (Horsepower).

So, the problem is...if the trees ideally put out "x" amount of flow at "x" pressure, you have to be able to accomodate both in the length and diameter of line. Pressure drop is related to both diameter and flow rate (just ask your plumber). If your pressure drop is too much for the tree, just like your vacuum example with the 1/2" line, the flow will be reduced. Again, slope helps this, etc. etc.

Brandon - just imagine how much that guy would have made if he only had 10 taps on that line? :wink: I agree that the line has to be full to pull a vacuum, so if you have too few taps, I'm not sure you would get that effect?

[MASSEY JACK]

A lot of people would differ with you on the subject of moving fluid through lines. As far as sap transfer it may not have much affect. When I worked in the irrigation business we definitely had to factor in friction loss over distance as it can cause great pressure losses at the sprinklers. Same holds true in my current job when we pump water or manure for dairy operations. There are friction coefficient tables for all kinds and schedules of pipe. The faster the fluid moves in the pipe-the greater the friction loss.

As far as your formula of 2 feet elevation equals 1 pound of pressure loss or gain is close enough for guesstimating. The real number is .433 pounds per foot. It is referred to as "head pressure". Also, you not only lose is going uphill but you gain it going down hill. It's great when you install a lawn sprinkler system and the lawn is all downhill from the house. You gain pressure and the sprinklers spray even farther :D :D :D

[sweetwoodmaple]

Yes, thanks for the correction on Friction, that is what creates pressure drop along with elevation. Again, you lower the flow rate to almost nothing, and your friction is almost non existent as well.

[maplehound]

Lew asked how long his lateral lines can be and still wash them in place. So what I was telling him is that the lenght of his lines isn't an isue the cleaning water will get there as long as his pump has enough pressure to get it to the top of his system.
Ron

[maple flats]

And if you also inject air into the line you get a lot better delivery if you are going a long way up hill. As for cleaning the lines the air also helps because there is then an agitation inside the pipe which helps loosen whatever is in the pipe or tubing. With the air injected with the water you can get greater elevation than if you had just water, in fact you can get more height than the pump head pressure would indicate.

[Maple Hill Sugarhouse]

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[lew]

maple hill sugarhouse, the 120 tap line you are talking about was one of my own lines, so Ican give you specs as best as I can guess. Total length of hedgerow plus line cross ing field would be about 1200 feet. total elevation difference would be about 60 feet from the tank to the beginning of the hedgerow (distance from tank to hedgerow was about 500 feet.

[Maple Hill Sugarhouse]

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[lew]

I forgot to give you the time lapse for all that sap. It was in a 24 hour period. The sap would run like this multiple times per season, and did it for multiple years. As a matter of fact, it is still doing it as my old partner now taps those trees with the same effect. Wish I had more lines like that one.