Sap Loss

[Jay]

This is my first year on gravity tubbing 200 + 115 on pails. I have read her a few different times that you get more sap when using pails then tubbing unless you have vacuum set up. Not being a wise A@@ but where do you lose the sap? Or is it that you dont "lose" sap it just does not run as well on tubbing as it does on pails. I know that know matter how tight your lines are even on good slope you are going to have sap freeze in your lines. Thanks ahead of time, Jay :?

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

Jay,

If you lines are set up correctly and have a good slope and no sag, I doubt you will see much difference. :D Besides, the time is saves is worth it regardless! :D

[brookledge]

The jury is still out on this one. You are going to get some who swear one is better than the other. Both have pros and cons. My self I use tubbing I work a full time job and do not have time to collect buckets. So I look at the tubing system as a labor saver.I know have vacuum on all of my taps and consider anything under .33 gal of syrup per tap a bad year. With buckets there is really no variables like there is in tubing.

Properly sized lines, different slopes, the length of the drops, and the length of the lateral lines are a few things that will be a factor in the final out come. It use to be as many as 40-50 taps on a 5/16 line, now no more than 5-8 is the rule. I have seen some that only have 4"-6" drops and that is to short better to have 30"-36" so that the sap will drip away from the hole and not stay there. No doubt about it if tubing is all flat the volume will be lower.
With buckets you will generally have a higher sugar content than tubing. But buckets have drawbacks to. Many times you will lose sap by over flowing on the ground. As long as you have a large enough tank at the end of your mainline you won't lose any. when it rains usually the wind is blowing and the covers can blow off allowing water in.
I could go on and on but I really think it comes down to what the layout of your orchard is. If has a good slope and is densly populated I feel that tubing is the way to go.
When you have 100 taps collecting buckets isn't bad but try collecting 1000 and then boil it all by yourself.
Hope this helps You have to make the call on whats best for you.
Keith

[markcasper]

brookledge, you pretty much said all there is to say. It really depends on your wooded area. Another thing is accesability. How easy is it to get to from a good surfaced road and the like. I used to gather everything using bags. It got to the point where good help was about impossible to find as it took nearly all afternoon with 3-4 of us to gather 1200 bags. I even used to tap on the steep hillsides and had dumping stations placed and the sap then went through a line. After a few years of this and slipping down the hills i gradually switched to tubing and now most is supplemented with vacuum.

If you have flat terrain, then buckets/bags are probably the best choice. I have some flat land that I tap and those all get bags, but I only tap them after the tubing is tapped and it depends on how much help I can get and whether or not it falls during the periods of vacation from my town job. There is no doubt in my mind that the quality is 2 to 1 better for sap that comes from buckets. Currently, Grade B is bringing just as much as light amber in price on the bulk market, so tubing is now more attractive looking. Mark

[Jay]

Thanks for the info boys, I have between 4 and 12 taps on my lats with 1 having 14 and the lats are 20 to 50 feet long with 1 being 80 feet I have 3 main lines 1 single and the other 2 join all are 3/4. These trees have never been tapped before and to put pails on them because of the way the land sits would have been alot of work since you cant get much in there and if there was snow forget about. Its funny, during the warm months when I am making hay I am cursing a the side hills and why cant I have flatter fields, now it the other way around, LoL. I know what you mean about the pails overflowing. Thanks again, Jay

[markcasper]

Jay--The hills are a blessing for tubing, thats what makes it work. After gathering by pail for several years on hills, I today still wonder why I didn't do tubing years before. One reason, I wanted as much light syrup as possible. After one gets bigger though, you find yourself doing things to save time and labor. Otherwise, you wouldn't be able to put out more taps to begin with.
Alot of the syrup color and grade is related to the tempuratures and how long it has sat around prior to boiling. I tend to be safe in the lighter grades until those dreaded 60+ degree days come, then its just plain rough to come out with anything better than dark amber for the rest of the season, at least with the tubing sap.

By what you have shared, you seem to be in good shape. Some would say no more than 5 on a lateral, but if you are not running vacuum and you have 12 with poly tubing, that still shouldn't be too many on a lateral. Mark

[maplehound]

When you get those 60 deg. days and the run stops to prolonged warm days. Try vaccuuming a bucket or two of water down your mainlines. I often add a little bleach to the first bucket then run 2 more after it of plain water to rinse it out. This will restore the quality of your sap the next run. And if you tear down and clean your evaporator at the same time, you may even get lighter syrup than you had before the warm spell.
Here in Columbiana Ohio, We often get days in the 70's during the season and if we don't rinse our main lines (and soetimes our branches and spiles as well) we might as well end our season. Even wwhen there is alot more season to go. Also try using white tubing for your mains. The black lines heat up in the warm sun and cause poor sap quality as well.
Ron @ raccoon run maple syrup
aka: Maplehound

[markcasper]

maplehound--That is a very good idea, actually I have been taking some of the end of mainline fittings out and replacing them with a regular connector instead. Screw the star back in and either plug the end off, or will be putting a valve on the end so that I can do just as you are saying. Now do you suck the water/bleach through the lateral, and then it goes to the mainline? In my opinion, I would think it be better to have say 5 gallons going right in the end of the mainline, that way there is a whole glut going through and the entire surface would get it.

As long as you brought this topic up.....I saw in the D/G catalog some foam-looking devices with mini bristles on them. It said they are for running through the mainline and they would be caught at the releaser. I would assume they'd have to be put in before an air/water pressure rinse. You'd think they would get hung up somewhere though.

White mainlines-I have painted all of my mainlines white at least twice in the last 5 years. Usually I do touch up spots anywhere and anytime its warm enough and i see it coming off. I believe white is the best as almost all of my laterals are the white poly from Leader. Mark

[maplehound]

Mark,
The last couple years several people at the schools around have been sugesting tha vacuumeing your linse is beter than pressure wahsing them because when you vacuume them clean all the rotten smelly old sap ends up at the tank and not at the spout where you don't want it. Others though say that if you are going to use air when you pressure wash that is still better than vacuumme washing.
I to have seen those sponges and even bought some a couple years ago but my father (who is my best helper) has talked me out of trying them, out of fear that they will get cought inside the line at a fitting somewhere. Then what???? :?
If you vacuume clean your lines I do suggest that you do each one of the spiles first and then vacuumme 2 or 3 five gallon buckets of water through your mains to rinse them out. This can be straight water if you have used bleach or peroxide when you did your drops. Problem now is that you have to carry buckets of water around the woods. But if you don't spill it on yourself then you do stay drier thsn you do pressure washing.
Ron

[Jay]

Since we are on washing, I set up all of my lateral lines with quick connects where it meets the main and at the end tree, my thinking was I would dump 5 or 10 gallons down the main and then hang them high off the ground. The laterals I would mark each end tree 1-whatever and mark each lateral 1-whatever so I know what lateral starts on what end tree. As far as washing I was was going to submerg them in a 500 gallon round stock tank of water and then either rig somthing to suck water through them starting at the end that connects to the mainline or try blowing water through them....maybe with a air hose? Any thoughts on that or other ideas. Thanks, Jay :?

[maplehound]

Jay
I have seen difrent was of washing tubing after it was taken down. Most put them on some kind of round drum and turn them so half is in water and half out. The rotation is supposed to run the water through the lines. But most people I have talked to who take there setup down every year wash it first before taking it down.
I my self took down a whole woods last year (since I was asked to, because they wher thinking of timbering it soon) So I washed the tubing first and then reused it in another woods this spring. My problem with this was that with the lines sitting around and no0t fully dried out, they seemed to get green and slimmy inside. also I reused the mainlines and didn't cap off all the saddles and the mud waspes ( mud dabbers) got in them and I had a hard time getting them back open. Then last week I tried to pressure wash the new set up and couldn't get water out through the lines but could get vaccume down them, We think that we have a mud nest lose inside the line and when we put pressure to the lines the mud clogs up at a fitting but under vaccumme it releases. So now we have to take apart some of the mainline and try and clean it out.
I hope this helps you
Ron