Looking for new evaporator in WI, any ideas?

[motowbrowne]

Alright, I am new to this forum, but have been making syrup with my dad for close to twenty years. He's been doing it basically the same way since 1974, when he jerry-rigged the system together from some fire bricks and old milk tanks. We have about 300 taps all on buckets and a 30" by 8' homemade evaporator, which is essentially two parallel rows of fire bricks with a stovepipe and a door. On the bricks we have three flat pans, the first of which is fed through a copper preheater wound around the stack. the sap is then moved forward manually by bailing. We make in the range of 80-120gal/year, and I would say we are getting an average of a 20gal/hour evaporation rate with this setup, which means we often boil all night, with the fire sometimes not going out for a week at a time. I should mention that the front pan has no draw, so it must be manually removed. This year we discovered that our slabwood supplier will no longer be selling wood. this coupled with some problems with our current evaporator (need to replace back sap pan), got me thinking that it might just be time to invest in a new used, more efficient evaporator. After spending some time on this forum, I also started thinking that it may be possible to lease some forest from some neighbors and increase the size of our operation. I don't want to do huge here, but I think that with a more efficient evaporator and some gravity line we could do more syrup with not much more work and probably use the same amount of wood, or maybe even less. Right now we use about one ton of mixed slabwood to make an 8 gallon batch of syrup. I think I would like to operate somewhere in the 500-600 tap range. I found a guy in WI selling a 2x6 CDL/Dallaire and a bunch of buckets/spiles, as well as a poly tank for a truck and a bulk tank on legs. I would like to expand with gravity line, not buckets, so those don't really interest me, but the evaporator is only two years old. He wants 3500 for the evap and 5300 for everything. I also found a guy selling a 2x10 waterloo for 4500, but no idea on the age of that one. I'm thinking that for the extra 1000 dollars having the bigger evap would probably make a lot more sense. Anybody out there have any input on either of these brands, or anything in particular I should pay attention to when buying a used evaporator? I know that I need to make sure it's not lead soldered. I am also interested in what it takes to become a capable of selling retail through stores. I spend most of my time in Washington State, and I'm thinking about making syrup in WI and trucking it to WA to sell at our local food co-oop. I think I could get a better price for it there, as well as sell a better product than what they currently offer. Also, I am curious about the change a modern evaporator will make to the flavor of our syrup. With our current setup, we get very dark syrup with a very rich flavor. We have a pretty dedicated clientele, and we don't have any interest in making light grade syrup, since everyone want the dark stuff where we sell. Is it possible to darken a light batch of syrup by heating it more after it is drawn off and then rediluting it with water or sap to get back to the right sugar content? Well, Thanks for your input, I always took our maple operation for granted, but now that I'm looking into it more closely, I'm getting more excited about making more syrup and making a little money during the winter.

Ryan,
River Falls, WI

[bearair]

If you are planning on expanding or just taking less time to boil I would spend the extra money now and go for the bigger unit.
We have a 2x6 Dalair. The book says to expect 30 gallons per hour. I know one friend who claims he is getting around 45-50 gph with a pre-heater and a lot of tweaking. We don't have a pre-heater or a steam hood and can only get 20 gph out of the thing.
I did ask for help on this board and have gotten a lot of Ideas which I'm going to implement for next year. So hopefully next year will go better.

You have found the right place with this board there is A LOT of good information here and I've learned a lot.

Welcome

[Haynes Forest Products]

I have both Waterloo Small and CDL pans on the same rig so I like both. 600 taps on a 2X6 Your in for a long day I would go with a 3X10 for more time in the woods and you will grow. Yes cooking and recooking syrup will bring the darker color and deeper flavor. Set the woods up for vacuum and run it like gravity then you will expand to vacuum down the road.

[3rdgen.maple]

Problem is Haynes he said 2x10 not 3x10. I cannot fathom that a 2 foot wide arch is capable of firing a 10 foot arch with any kind of efficiency. If you are not going over 600 taps I would get ahold of a 3x8 and nothing smaller. Never liked the concept of a 2x8 either as I have heard many complaints that they just cant the back of the flue pans boiling hard. I do however and have for a few years boiled on a 2x6 with 600 taps and I bust my but but I dont have a fire going for a week straight. I can push 40 on it if I stay right at it. But like I said I would be looking to find a 3x8 before I put a thought into a 2x10.

[Sugarmaker]

Wow is what I have to say! baling 80 gallons of syrup is pure dedication in this day!
My 2 cents is that you should go for a good used or new 3 x 10 and it will handle your taps expansion. Plus when you see how good it boils you will be adding even more taps!
Well I can see why your making dark syrup and there is nothing wrong with that. BUT, making all grades will give your customers more selection and Light syrup is really goooooood on pancakes too.
Regards,
Chris

[motowbrowne]

Thanks for the ideas. I've been looking into it a little more, and while there seem to be a few small evaporators, 2x6 or smaller and a few large evaporators, 4x10 or bigger in my area, there isn't much in the middle. I talked to the guy with the 2x10, which does sound like a weird size, and he said that with no performance increasing components, he could do 60gal/hour on it. I don't exactly understand why the fire from a 2x couldn't heat a long flue pan like that, I understand that since there is less fire in the arch, the evaporation rate would be less, but wouldn't more of the total heat from the fire be transferred into the pan and less go into the air than with say a 3x8, which would have more fire, but a shorter distance over which to transfer heat? The Waterloo is 12 or 13 years old. The sides are galvanized, the pans are steel and welded, but the partitions in the syrup pan are soldered. He didn't know if it lead free solder, but if it's only that old, I would guess it's not. Am I wrong in guessing that? I don't think I'll ever be doing vacuum, or over 600 taps, probably in the 450-500 range. Does 4500 sound like a good price for that evaporator? Thanks for the input, let me know if you have any suggestions.
I should also mention that while a 3x8 or so would seem to be a better size, buying a new one is not an option, and driving to vermont or canada for a used one seems out of the question too.

Ryan

[maple connection]

My two cents is I have a 2x6 grimm evaporator that I get about 35 gallons an hour threw. It has a preheater and a hood. I also bought a 4" used R.O. that you let run all day and instead of sticking wood in the evaporator you can enjoy time out in the woods. The longest I boiled on my 2x6 was 7 hours one day. Most days were 5 hours. I send the sap threw the R.O. twice to get the brix up to 16%. Then its time to start boiling:). With that 2x6 and sap at 16% I was gettting 8 to 10 gallons of syrup off that 2x6 per hour. In order to do that without a R.O. you would need a pretty big rig. I had 6000 gallons of sap and made just under 200 gallons of syrup on 2 bundles of slab wood. I liked that, So my numbers showed me that a used 2x6 and a used R.O. I was gettting away cheaper than buying a big rig and cooking for 10 hours eating more wood. I could be looking at this wrong but thats my 2 cents.

[3rdgen.maple]

Moto the first thing I would do is go over to the place and do a water boil in it and just see for yourself how the rig boils and check for leaks etc. But like I said I dont think there is enough heat coming out of a 2 foot firebox to feed a 10 foot set of pans. If you where to calculate the surface area including flues and all in a 2x6 then do it on the 2x10 you will see how much surface area that firebox has to heat. Unless it is a high effecient arch or maybe its not a wood fired rig. But hey look at it this way its a higher gph than you have now right, and the price seems right for your budget correct? Just check around some more the season is a ways away and you might find something better along the way. And then there is the equation that Maple connection threw at you also, RO and a smaller rig will go a long way also. That could also get you in on the vac world and keep up with your sap as well.

[RileySugarbush]

I have no doubt that a 2x10 could be made to work very well. Maybe with natural draft you would have a hard time getting enough heat, but with air under and over the fire, I think long and skinny is the way to go. Currently my 2x6 is sending 1500 to 1800°F up the stack when it is pushed hard. That is some serious heat that could be evaporating water.

I plan on stretching mine to 8' and if I had more sap would consider 2x10 without concern.

[motowbrowne]

Well, those numbers on the RO certainly look good, but at least for now it's not in the cards. We don't have any power at the sugar bush, much less a heated room. I suppose it could still happen someday in the future, but not anytime soon, so I think we'll just be using wood energy for now, but with a new evaporator, we should get a lot more use out of our wood, which will be a welcome change. I suppose if the 8'flue pan isn't heating well enough I could shorten the arch and get a 6 foot pan, but the guy who is selling it has used it for years with 450 taps and his brother had an identical one that he did up to 700 taps on. Now, I'm sure you'd be spending lots of time boiling with 700 on a 2x10, but I think it'll be big enough for my use. So, since I've never operated a modern evaporator, are there any things in need to know? I know I can figure it out, but how often am I going to be stoking, every ten minutes, every thirty minutes? 3rdgen mentioned that he thinks the firebox is undersized, so i suppose I'll be stoking pretty often.

[3rdgen.maple]

check this one out http://mapletrader.com/community/showthread.php?t=13389

[motowbrowne]

I just saw that one too. I talked with Mike on the phone for about 45 minutes. It sounds like a nice evaporator, only thing is, he doesn't know if it's lead solder or not. Is there an easy way to find out? or could I just get someone to lead-free solder over the existing solder? Or do I have to resolder the whole deal? I guess the breakdown is like this, a 12-13 year old 2x10 waterloo in great shape with a welded sap pan and a soldered syrup pan with no hood for 4500, or a Lightning 30"x10 in good shape with a new dallaire arch and a new hood, but with old probably around probably lead soldered pans for 4200. I think that either one of these evaporators would suit my needs. The Lightning has a 30"x3ft syrup pan and a 7' flue pan, with 7" flues, the Waterloo is an 8' flue pan with a 2x2 syrup pan, which seems pretty small. I know that a lead pan isn't a deal breaker, but I don't know if I want to be replacing a 30"by7' flue pan anytime soon. Any input?

Thanks

[motowbrowne]

http://mapletrader.com/community/showthread.php?p=153856#post153856, that might be the way to go, the price is certainly right.

[3rdgen.maple]

You can always go to the hardware store and buy a lead test kit and find out for sure. I missed the part about the pans being soldered when I posted the link. Its a tough desicion for sure but my personal preference is a tig welded pan. Might be more money up front. But theres alot of soldered pans out there making great syrup. I would keep searching theres plenty of time left before you need one.