thinking about putting dissconects in drops

[michiganfarmer2]

Those twist lock quick dissconnects for branchline... IM thinking abuot putting them in my drops right above the "T". THen I can easily replace the drop every couple years. Use the same drop, and stubby for a couple years, but also use new check valves every year, then about ever 3 years put new drops on with new stubbies.

Anyone els do this?

Does it seem like a good idea?

[Gary R]

I'm new to tubing and I have 3 of those installed so I can access a road when needed. I would say bad idea. 1. there easy to leak 2. expensive 3. you still need to install the new drop on half of the fitting. You might as well take a tubing repair tool out with you and replace the drop all the way to the tee.

[jwalker]

CDL has now made a t for the drop so they can be changed out every year or how ever often you'd like. They are new this year I believe. They are in the 2011 catalog.

[michiganfarmer2]

CDL has now made a t for the drop so they can be changed out every year or how ever often you'd like. They are new this year I believe. They are in the 2011 catalog.

I looked them up. FANTASTIC IDEA! Thank you

[bigtreemaple]

CDL has now made a t for the drop so they can be changed out every year or how ever often you'd like. They are new this year I believe. They are in the 2011 catalog.

Has any body used these new T's yet? My question about them is would you want to remove the drop at the end of the season, then how would you cover the open T, or would you leave the old drop on and replace it as you tapped the next season? If you waited you would have new drops to put on and old ones to carry out of the woods at the same time.

Also I noticed in the CDL catalog the 2 piece 19/64 T that has a plug for the T after the drop is removed, did not look too convenient to me, has any body used these?

[michiganfarmer2]

Has any body used these new T's yet? My question about them is would you want to remove the drop at the end of the season, then how would you cover the open T, or would you leave the old drop on and replace it as you tapped the next season? If you waited you would have new drops to put on and old ones to carry out of the woods at the same time.


My thoguht is leave the taps in the hole till the next spring. When yo go out to tap, bring the new drops and exchange them.

CDL does have little covers for the T if yuo choose to remove the drops.

[michiganfarmer2]

...OR when the seaon is over pull the spiles, and let the drops hang. In the late fall after a few hard freezes so all the mud wasps are gone, go switch them out for the new drops. Then yuo wont have so much stuff to carry around when yuo are tapping in the spring

[xyz5150]

Where are you guys getting this info paper catalog or Internet ? I can seam to find any info.

[adk1]

#1, never leave the taps in the hole of the tree! I plan on taking down all of my lateral lines (around 20) each year for awhile to clean

[michiganfarmer2]

#1, never leave the taps in the hole of the tree! I plan on taking down all of my lateral lines (around 20) each year for awhile to clean

I wondered about that. Ive done it twice in 10 years

[michiganfarmer2]

Where are you guys getting this info paper catalog or Internet ? I can seam to find any info.

IM getting it on CDL's website. http://cdl-dallaire.com/?module=document&action=view&id=21

Its Bi-Lingual so its kinda hard to find the catalog, an dyuo have ot download it

[DrTimPerkins]

CDL has now made a t for the drop so they can be changed out every year or how ever often you'd like. They are new this year I believe. They are in the 2011 catalog.

This is not a new concept, but it is a new product. My first question would be....have they done any testing of it? There is none presented for this product in the catalog, but since the catalog was produced before the 2011 season they could have done something this spring.

My second question would be....is it economical? There are lots of good ideas out there that might increase sap yield, but if it doesn't put money in your pocket, it is only good for the folks selling it. Let's do some quick (but fairly simple) math. Let's ignore the start-up cost (1st year) and just go with the annual recurring cost to make it simpler.

CDL Replace Dropline System (RDS)
(replace tee adapter -- not the tee itself, just the tee adapter, new 3' dropline, new spout annually) = Cost $0.68

Leader CV Spout Adapter (CV)
(replace adapter each year) = Cost $0.36

Lapierre Clear Straight Through Spout (CST)
(replace spout each year) = Cost $0.15

CDL claims in their 2011 catalog (based upon a Centre Acer study) that changing the dropline each year will produce 17% more sap. That's quite reasonable. Our research (published in the Maple Digest and available at http://www.uvm.edu/~pmrc) shows that about how much a tubing system drops in production after one year in use. By replacing the entire dropline you're getting a substantial increase in yield (at a cost). Extensive research by Cornell and UVM suggests you'd get just a little bit under that using the CV system (no drop or stubby replacement), so perhaps 90% of that 17% increase (and that is conservative in my opinion) = 15.3%...we'll round down to 15% to make the numbers easier (which helps the RDS numbers even a little more as well). Using a CST adapter would maybe get you half of that 17%, so let's say 9%.

So let's take two hypothetical maple producers. One is doing an OK job, with old tubing (not real good vacuum), makes 10 gals sap per tap. The other does a really good job, has 5-10 year old tubing, makes 20 gals sap per tap (with high vacuum). What I show below is the net income (NI) from the additional sap gained by changing to the new sanitation method, the net cost of adopting that practice (NC), and the net profit (NP) achieved (this is what you're after...the best bang for the buck...the higher this number the better). All these numbers were calculated with sap valued at $0.50 per gallon (nice sweet sap). Changing the sap value changes the numbers, but not the general trends of the results.

10 Gal per Tap Producer
CDL RDS 1.7 gal more sap = $0.85 (NI) - $ 0.68 (NC) = $0.17 (NP***)
Leader CV 1.5 gal more sap = $0.75 (NI) - $ 0.36 (NC) = $0.39 (NP)
Lapierre CST 0.9 gal more sap = $0.45 (NI) - $ 0.15 (NC) = $0.30 (NP)

20 Gal per Tap Producer
CDL RDS 3.4 gal more sap = $1.70 (NI) - $ 0.68 (NC) = $1.02 (NP***)
Leader CV 3.0 gal more sap = $1.50 (NI) - $ 0.36 (NC) = $1.14 (NP)
Lapierre CST 1.8 gal more sap = $0.90 (NI) - $ 0.15 (NC) = $0.75 (NP)

The results are pretty clear already. Although you get a little less sap with the CV adapters, and even less with CST, your Net Profit is still higher using EITHER the CV or CST compared to the RDS due to the lower cost of using those systems. Remember, our goal (at least yours and mine) is to maximize YOUR profits (the sugarmakers), not the maple equipment dealer profits (and no...they don't like me saying things like that).

***However, we've neglected something that is fairly important. Those drops don't make themselves or put themselves out in the woods (or take the old ones back out of the woods). MorrillMaple said he'd make drops for us at $0.15 each (seems pretty cheap to me actually). But even that slight cost drops the net profit for the 10 gal/tap producer using the RDS from $0.17 to $0.02 per tap...and the Net Profit for the 20 gal/tap producer using RDS from $1.02 to $0.87 per tap. PLUS you've not put them in the woods yet. If you do all the tapping yourself, and don't mind carrying a lot of drops into the woods and back out through the snow, then no problem. If you hire people to do it, it might cost you $0.25-0.50 per tap (depending upon how fast your hired help is, how much you pay them, and how far apart your trees are. That would drop the Net Profit for the 10 gal/tap producer to -$0.23 to -$0.48 per tap (yes, those are negative numbers...meaning you're losing money) if they used the CDL RDS. For the 20 gal/tap producer using RDS, the Net Profit falls to $0.37to 0.62 per tap, which is BELOW the profit you'd make from simply replacing spouts alone (any cheap spout), and WAY below the profit you'd make using Leader CVs.

The ONLY way in which the RDS system can achieve a higher net profit than the other systems is if: a) the difference in sap production is far higher than competing systems AND/OR b) the cost of RDS is the same or just a hair higher than the other systems (even discounting the cost to make them and put them in the woods). If either (or both) of those conditions are not met, then RDS cannot match the profits achieved by the other systems. Keep in mind this is replacing any of these things EVERY year. You might think you can stretch the RDS for 2 yrs, but if you don't do it each season, you lose production the second year and the net profit calculation is even worse. A dropline that is used for one year has considerably less production than a new dropline, so you can't stretch it to 2 yrs and hope to get the same effect (well...you can actually hope all you want....you just won't get the sap).

Ultimately it is your call....but it is pretty important to look not only at how much more sap you might make, but what the cost (and labor) is, and what you end up putting in your pocket at the end of the season. That goes for any type of improvement you wish to make, whether it is changing drops (or suing the new CDL RDS), new spouts (any type), Check-valves, retubing an operation, adding or changing a vacuum pump, etc.

This concludes today's math (economics) lesson. :)

[michiganfarmer2]

I havent put pensile to paper yet, but the cost of each system compared to the sap output is definately something I am considering before I do anything

THanks for the breakdown. Once I understand it Ill apply it,lol.

[jwalker]

Thanks for the breakdown Dr Tim. I saw these in the catalog when we were there a couple of weeks ago for the open house. I think its good that all this research is being done and sugarmakers have all these options on the best system for there choosing. What I get a chuckle out of, is this can get pretty costly and just plain crazy if you were to jump on every new thing that pops up from year to year. Remember the big stainless mini spout craz a couple of years ago. Now you see those on dealers shelves as clearance items, no-one wants them. Thanks for the economics lesson.

[DrTimPerkins]

Remember the big stainless mini spout craz a couple of years ago.

I remember it quite well. We did some very preliminary research on prototypes at UVM PMRC for a few years before they came out. We dropped it when it appeared to be a non-starter (our early results indicated that good vacuum did make it to the wood, but that they produced considerably less sap than a 5/16" spout) and because there was no funding provided to continue studying it. The concept was worth testing though, but it shouldn't have made it to the product stage. After it did come out, we tested it, and found basically the same results, it produces about 2/3 of what a 5/16" spout does. It probably did serve a useful purpose though, in that it demonstrated very well that a new spout performs very well compared to an old spout. So the inventor did make a valuable contribution to the body of sap yield knowledge and should be credited with that. Very useful discoveries are sometimes made this way.

Great example of why there SHOULD be research on sap yields and economics (either performed by or funded by the manufacturer) for a few years BEFORE a product is released. Without that, it is either a good idea or a bad idea....and producers are the Guinea pigs....at their expense.

[gmcooper]

Thanks for the info Dr. Perkins!

[bigtreemaple]

Where are you guys getting this info paper catalog or Internet ? I can seam to find any info.

Page 4 of the 2011 paper catalog, new items.

[bigtreemaple]

The one item they show called a 5/16 quick T looks like the drop line plugs directly onto the T without the use of the Tee adapter. Assuming you were putting in a new installation and had to buy Tee for it anyway, if you used this type then the cost of the Tee adapter would go away which would improve the results of the RDS somewhat. The cost of the new dropline and a new CST spout is slightly more than the CV but not too much. There is still the issue of cutting the drops and carrying them in and out of the wood each year, and that depends on how you value your time. Is my thinking correct?

[DrTimPerkins]

The one item they show called a 5/16 quick T looks like the drop line plugs directly onto the T without the use of the Tee adapter. Assuming you were putting in a new installation and had to buy Tee for it anyway, if you used this type then the cost of the Tee adapter would go away which would improve the results of the RDS somewhat

I don't believe that is correct. At least it was not that way on the prototypes I saw last October. They have a tee still (connecting to the lateral line), but it has a quick-disconnect press-fitting attachment on the side where the drop would normally go. The tee-adapter press-fits into the port on the side of the tee itself. So each year you do replace the tee-adapter, dropline (3 ft), and spout. That totals $0.68. You do not replace the tee though.

If that is not correct, and you plug the dropline directly into the tee, then the price drops a little, HOWEVER, in removing the dropline from the tee at the end of the season, you will inevitably score (cut) the tee, creating a leak (if you're on vacuum), so you'll end up replacing the tee within a year or two anyhow. If you don't fix the leak, you'll lose vacuum and production. If you do fix it, the cost goes up to the scenario I outlined. It is almost impossible to remove 5/16" line from fittings without scoring them. With good vacuum, these become sources of leaks. Plus you have the time required to cut the dropline off each tee adapter, which if you're trying to be very careful to not score the tee, would take a very long time.

Altogether, I like the concept (and as I said, it's been around a long time), but the economics of implementing it just don't work out well for the producer given the alternatives of using a new adapter (of any low-cost type) or a CV adapter.

The antimicrobial silver spout has the same issues. The technology works (at least for one year), but the cost outweighs the benefits under recurring use.

[michiganfarmer2]

I don't believe that is correct. At least it was not that way on the prototypes I saw last October. They have a tee still (connecting to the lateral line), but it has a quick-disconnect press-fitting attachment on the side where the drop would normally go. The tee-adapter press-fits into the port on the side of the tee itself. So each year you do replace the tee-adapter, dropline (3 ft), and spout. That totals $0.68. You do not replace the tee though.

.

Right, but even if you do this, you are still going to get bacteria in the tree when the freezing temp suck sap back if you dont use the CV.

IM leaning toward the CDL quick-dissconnect press-fitting, The leader stubby, and CV, replacing the CV every year, and the entire drop about every 3 years.

[bigtreemaple]

Thanks Dr. Tim for the explanation.