3/16" Tapholes?????

[markcasper]

I went to a dealers open house today to pick up a few things and to find out whats new. Garth Atherton was there and I picked his brain regardding these 5/16"- 7/16" spile reducers. He had an associate there as well and someone told me that he was one of the owners of CDL. ( There has been so many splits, mergers and buyouts, but their shirts had the CDL logo on them.) This guy was shorter, dark hair and was indeed a Frenchman.

Anyway, I asked what ever happened to the biodegradable sleeve that was for the 5/16" slim spouts. They told me that it didn't work due to sap getting in between the sleeve and spile. When it froze, it would push them apart and or leak, so the idea was scrapped.

Both of them began trying to sell me on a different concept. I told them that I had used the 5/16 to 7/16 reducers since 2002. I have been very pleased with them as they seem to keep the holes running later into the season. After explaining to them how I wash and then boil them for an hour prior to use, they told me that boiling doesn't get all of the microbes out and that there should be something new and virgin going into the taphole every year. Now.....they have what they call a "cleanspout reducer durable=.19 and cleanspout reducer biodegradable=.18." These things fit and lock onto the "cleanspout elbow= .21". The biodegradable ones are meant to be thrown out every year. They said that if you spent the 18 cents a year, it would return $1.00 worth of additional sap due to the hole satying open longer. I asked what I should do.....they reccommended replacing all of them with these things.

Now I don't doubt a bit that they help, but I cannot decifer whether its just another sales pitch to sell something new or not.

They were telling of how people paint there mainlines (I am one of them) They said that there has been research done and they found that some of the paint makes its way all the way through the plastic to the inner walls. Besides that fact of not hearing this before, they said that is how bacteria acts on plastic and no amount of boiling is gonna get rid of the bacteria b/c its so entrenched into the plastic.

In the same catalog, right above these cleanspout thingys, the regular health spouts remain....listed and for sale @.31 cents. I asked the Canadian guy why they still are trying to sell these if the "new" cleanspouts are the way to go. His answer was that the Canadians are under the quota system and that there is no reason to try and keep the holes open longer b/c they can only produce so much syrup and get paid for it. I about started to laugh and then strted thinking the other way.

All I want is to be able to convert the rest of my health spouts over to something more sanitary. They said to just cut them all off and go with the cleanspouts. I grabbed a D/G catalog from last year and noticed that they have 5/16" to 3/16" reducers that are identical to their big brothers. I am a bit reluctant to try these as 3/16'' seems unheard of at this time and just when you go and replace something.....1-2 years later you find out you are doing it wrong again!

I am well satisfied with boiling the reducers I now have and I have 4 years of proof that suggests there is a marked difference in yield on these taps. How much....At least 2 gallons sap per tap more per season and these are all on vacuum.

If anyone has 2 cents to share, it'd be good. Garth mentiones that oodles of producers up Vermont way have converted, or are converting to these and said if they didn't increase performance, they wouldn't be selling them like they are.

Hold on to the east......The cold has hit and is going down close to zero tonight and they said our area will be well below 0 at night by the middle of next week. Mark

[WF MASON]

Mark, wouldn't the 5/16'' stainless spouts be the way to go ? I know alot of people who have switched to them. That would be a 'one time' buy that would last forever. Boil them before and after use, I can't believe there would be any crap growing inside before the next use. ?
''The paint goes through the mainline plastic'',, I'mmm, ,,ok ,, I have heard it all now. You have to remember sometimes , salesman sell. Thats their job. If something works for you keep using it.
I spoke to a guy from Wisc. yesterday , the guy told me six inches of snow on the ground with temps in the fortys. Sounds like here. I believe to have a good season we need -10 below for a while to drive the frost into the ground and freeze the tree roots. I've had below zero only four mornings here this winter. No frost when we have temps in the 40's for a week to a time. Send that cold our way we need it.

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

Guys,

I will chip in on both points. The key issue is here is those guys are in the business to make money and they don't really care how they do it. They will tell people anything to get a sale and a lot of the new "GREAT" ideas that they come up with are scrapped in a few years as they were just a bunch of hoghwash to make somebody rich from the getgo.

I bought 75 of the stainless spouts last year, but I haven't installed them yet. I hope to add that many taps maybe for next season and I am going to try to buy about 25 stainless spouts each year until I get them changed out. I have never seen a reduction in sap to amount to anything by a new spout. $ 1 per year, come on and give me a break. These people will tell you anything to sell you their products.

As far as the ground freezing deep, WF I wouldn't worry too much about that. Most years down here we have very little frost in the ground and some years none and it doesn't seem to affect the season. Seems like it does better to me when we start the season with little or none. I have never paid that much attention, but will start watching that to see over the next few years. :?

[markcasper]

Mason-I would consider the stainless spouts, but how do you get them back in the house to boil them? And this is something that I like to do, but the time it would take to cut them all off and replace on each drop would be astonishing. I still plan on doing something yet this year, with the 330 taps that do just have the conventional health spout yet.

As far as frost in the ground. I had 2 ft of frost last year, a week of good sapping temps the end of March and virtually little sap flow due to all that frost. There is none in the woods now and only 6-10 inches out in the open. I do agree and tend to think the trees need to go through somewhat of a cold cycle to jump them. We had some below zero weather......way back in December, but seeing what happened last year, I hope the frost level stays mininal, because where I live, theres maybe an inch of snow in the woods at this point and that won't insulate much.

Yes, paint spots would show up on the inside of the plastic.......sounds kind of different doesn't it.? Mark

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

Mark,

I don't think you would need to take the stainless tap out. I think the sun and weather the other 11 months would help to sanitize them. I always spray my taphole and each spout with a squirt of 8 to 1 water/bleach mixture and I think this will disinfect the spouts a lot, especially the stainless.

I know I will take some abuse for this procedure because Ohio State says not to do it, but I can't see where it would hurt anything. :)

[maple flats]

Try hydrogen peroxide (food grade) instead of bleach solution, no residue, the only thing after sun exposure for a little while is water and oxygen, if no sun exposure it still breaks down in the evaporation process.

[emericksmaple]

Well here goes nothing. I know I will take a beating for this. All this hype about keeping the tap hole sanitary I think is crazy. The best thing they ever had for tap hole sanitation they did away with. ( I'll let you guess as what I am referring too!) We have woods that we had the same spiles in for 10-12 years and on good years we get lots of sap and on the bad ones we don't. To me it all has to do with the weather. If you get the right weather you get sap if you don't that's life. To me alot of people waste alot of money throwing away spiles or inserts, that could be used to improve their woods in other ways.

[markcasper]

emerick-- You are not going to take a beating. All what you said is valid and I won't try to preswade you one way or the other. However, I don't think that it hurts in my operation to keep on doing what I have been.

I have a southeast facing grove with about 300 taps, as well as 300 on the otherside of the 40 that faces southwest. The first one mentioned always gets tapped first and they have the spile reducers. The southwest facing grove has only the health spouts and every year that is the one that slows to a trickle first. I don't want to admit it, but I believe its because I am pounding those weatherd, dirty spouts into the hole. So that is what convinced me. You are right.....if we get a good year, with not alot of warm weather in between the runs, then being extra sanitary is a waste of time.

As far as the PFA tablet, they DID work to the point where I was upset for a few years after I couldn't get them anymore. Since adding vacuum though, I believe the vacuum simply has replaced what the pill would have done providing you got the freezing nights back in the pill days. Mark

[emericksmaple]

I didn't mean to aim it towards you. I think alot of this has come from the equupment co trying to sell more stuff. I agree it doesn't hurt to do what you are doing. We have tried other things too. One year we ever carried little pail with rubbing alcohol, and dipped each spile in them before we pounded them into the tree, but it didn't seem to help we thought. Another year we bought some kind of spray from D&G and used.

[markcasper]

emerick---no, no you are not aiming at me, didn't feel that way at all. To let you know....I really hate being extra sanitary, but its what I have gotten used to. I don't like paying house insurance, car insuarnce and the like, but i do it anyway for the peace of mind more than anything. (I am sure someone will respond aka, lawsuits)

Thats probably the main reason, it gives me peace of mind that I did everyhting possible that may help.

I have never retapped my trees like some around me have done, so i spend the extra and hope that it helps. Mark

[howden86]

if you can do your own small experiment and decide for yourself. i talked to a dealer and he was not sure hoe they would work for me but suggested a experiment. when they push an item so much talk to a competitor syrup dealer. i bought some of these things and spent some major $$$$$$ and it has not increased my production one bit

[markcasper]

howden86--The dealer was not pushing them at all, it was the sales rep from Maple Pro. The dealer was actually being bucky about this newer idea. I guess to each their own in what they decide.
One other thing, when we milk cows, we use a single service towel. When there has been any problem with cell count or bacteria has a flare up, you just take more time and do a more thourough job as to try and make the best of it. For me, it basically has carried over into doing similar when tapping. I think trees that are on a colder part of the hill, or those that don't get as much sun, then theres no use in being extra sanitary.
course those are the ones that always get tapped last too.

So..............has anyone ever used a 3/16" spile reducer, not 5/16", it was 3/16"? I didn't know they ever made them until seeing them in the D/G catalog. I would totally by these for the taps i have left to convert, but am scared of cutting sap flow, just like with the micro-spout. Mark

[powerdub]

It has been my experiance in my bush to see black slime growth in the hole after as little as three weeks. By merely swabbing the spout with alcohol the holes stay clean for the entire season and then some. Howden suggested doing your own experiment, if you don't see any slime in your hole after a few weeks then don't worry about sanitizing. If your situation is like mine then I would sanitize. The sap definately runs longer and harder than it used to than it did before I cleaned the spout. Garth is probably right about the bacteria in the plastic, although the paint example is a new one on me but we are not doing surgery here either. I think at some point the cost starts to become a lot more than the gain and that is where I have to draw the line. Spend as little money as I can that will make the most difference. In the last two years I can't prove that the stainless spouts I have outproduce the plastic ones nor do the holes look any different so I am just going swab the spouts every year as I tap because it seems to work for me.

As far as stainless spouts go, there are a couple of sugarmakers up the road making stainless spouts. They are 5/16 and when you tap you put them in the tree first and then slide your tubing over it up to the shoulder. At the end of the season, just pull the tubing off and pull the spout out and bring it home to clean.

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

Scott,

What kind of alcohol do you use in the holes??? :?

[powerdub]

I don't use it in the holes. I cut a hole in the top of the bottle with an old tapping bit, stick the spout in and give it a shake. Then I wipe the spout with a clean towel to dry it off a bit before it goes into the tree. I use the alcohol you buy at the drug store. Just to be clear though I don't spray it in the hole. This method has made a big difference for me.

[sweetwoodmaple]

Interesting, I'll maybe have to try that this year.

Are you using plastic spiles with this method or only stainless?

[powerdub]

I only have a few stainless spouts that I bought for test purposes, the rest are plastic and are a mixture of Leader, IPL, Darveau and Lappierre (I like the best). As a side note the leader and IPL spouts start to leak vacuum as it gets into the season. I am not the only one who has had trouble with them either so I wouldn't buy those again.

[MASSEY JACK]

I was at Bascom's and over heard Bruce telling someone that 3/16 spouts were a failure. I believe he meant that they did not produce well. As far as the stainless spouts... how about hitting them with a quick fire propane torch for a second or two. heat kills the bacteria and no chemicals to carry.
A side note about the paint in the plastic....seems far fetched to me but in the farm equipment business we can have problems with fungi growth in fuel tanks. It forms a black slime that clogs fuel filters. The problem is much worse if you have a plastic fuel tank than a steel one. It is because the plastic is porous and gives the little critters a lot of spaces to grow and multiply. Just a little information for you to ponder.

[Maple Hill Sugarhouse]

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[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

Kevin,

Are you referring to the black plastic as vinyl??

I know Glenn and other chant don't use anything in you lines when flushing, but I flushed my lines this past year with a Tanaka pump and pool chlorine and simply just pumped the water back up thru the lines and out each spout and capped then off. I don't use air and my lines look like brand new.
8O

[Maple Hill Sugarhouse]

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[markcasper]

Kevin--Garth Atherton personally told me about this paint thing. He said that there had been studies done and that the paint on the plastic would eventually penetrate and there was spots of paint found on the insides of the plastic. He then went on to say that this is how the bacteria works, in much the same fashion. It seems to me that if this was the case, why has no-one heard of it like 10 years ago???

I wonder how much paint has went out in my syrup? Cuz all of my mainlines are painted.

Mark

[wdchuck]

As a painting contractor, I really doubt that mainline is porous enough to let paint through. Sounds like salesmans fluff to me.

[MASSEY JACK]

IF PAINT CAN GET IN WOULDN'T YOU THINK THE LESS DENSE SAP WOULD SWEAT RIGHT OUT OF THE PIPE A LOT FASTER?????????? LIKE WATER DROPLETS ON THE BOTTOM OR STICKY SUGAR FROM THE EVAPORATED SAP ON THE BOTTOM???

[lew]

It does seem weird that paint might actually penetrate your mainline, but I think that I might agree with the theory. To what extent it penetrates I'm not sure but from my own experience I have seen it penetrate to some extent. We had a 100 to 150 foot section of 1 inch mainline fully exposed to the sun and wanted to paint it white to keep the sap cooler. I sent a couple of guys up to the woods wtih 6 cans of spray paint (not the most efficient way to do it but that's what we had on hand). they camee back later and said they ahd a heck of a time because the paint kept disappearing. They'd paint a short section then move on up and when they looked back, the white had mostly disappeared. I couldn't believe it so i went up and checked for myself and sure enough, there was only a slight film of white on the black mainline. I took another can of paint with me that day and tried painting myself to see what wouyld happen. when I applied that can, the paint stuck as you would expect. I think the first coating acted like a primer. When it dried, it sealed all the pores and allowed the second coat to stcik well. That second coat is now about 8 years old and still looks fine.


Just food for thought.

[sweetwoodmaple]

Could use indoor/outdoor alumium foil tape instead of paint. A little more cost, though. Probably about 10 cents per foot for 2" wide.

[saphead]

The tubing used for maple is porous to some extent. It does not have an oxygen barrier like the syrup containers made by Sugarhill(located in the same town where I work). I read about when plastic tubing was first used for radiant heating systems,the oxygen went through the wall of the tubing and your boiler was rusted out in a couple of years! PEX(cross linked polyethelene) tubing is now used but it is too costly for maple and not really needed.It would be fun to have an unlimited budget and do some testing!