Just got a call from the dept of weights and measures

[Southtowns27]

Well, I just got off the phone with the department of weights and measures. He called to inform me that the glass containers we are packing our syrup in are not in compliance. We use the glass maple leaf shaped bottles from Leader. Apparently, they aren't labeled in US units, only metric (250ml, 500ml, etc) and therefore don't "comply." He said all we have to do is apply another sticker with the volume of the bottle in US units and we're all set. Just wanted to throw this out there for everyone else. Don't know if it applies where you are but it does here in NY.

[adk1]

never heard of anyone gettign a call in all my years around here. My guess is there buddy is that one of your competitors ratted you out! Seems as though maple producers are a happy bunch but I am sure there are some out there......

[markcasper]

It is called revenue generation. The government is broke and they are searching for more and more ways to take it from the citizens.

[jmayerl]

so it says the volume on it but since it is in standard metric which is used in the entire world except for the U.S. it's not in compliance? Yup sounds like a standard stupid liberal way of thinking.

[Thompson's Tree Farm]

Southtowns,
Contact the NY State Maple Producers Association. They should be able to assist you to at least find out if this is truly the rule in NYS. I seldom pack in glass and am not really sure. I, like ADK had never heard that before. I know it must have our name and address plus the product name and the size but I don't recall that it must be in English units rather than metric units. There is lots of product out there that does not have the producers name and address on it and even more that isn't labeled grade A or B. I don't think that if it is necessary, that putting a slightly different label on it will be too bad.
Doug

[happy thoughts]

That must have been a nerve wracking call:o. Still something just doesn't add up here. Is it the bottle that isn't in compliance or is it really your label?

Your state maple law has something in it about bottles being not less than 90% filled but that's just a recommendation.

http://www.agmkt.state.ny.us/FS/industry/04circs/maplesyrupansugarCIR947.htm

I also found a link to NY state food labeling law. There's nothing in it about bottle compliance. It does state though, that both US and metric measure must appear on the label. You might want to check with your ag bureau or weights and measures dept. yourself and ask about what they require just to make sure you don't get another call next year or worse, lose product or sales because of it.

http://www.ithacamarket.com/wp-content/uploads/ifm_vendor_food-labeling.pdf

[Kev]

That must have been a nerve wracking call:o. Still something just doesn't add up here. Is it the bottle that isn't in compliance or is it really your label?

Your state maple law has something in it about bottles being not less than 90% filled but that's just a recommendation.

http://www.agmkt.state.ny.us/FS/industry/04circs/maplesyrupansugarCIR947.htm

I also found a link to NY state food labeling law. There's nothing in it about bottle compliance. It does state though, that both US and metric measure must appear on the label. You might want to check with your ag bureau or weights and measures dept. yourself and ask about what they require just to make sure you don't get another call next year or worse, lose product or sales because of it.

http://www.ithacamarket.com/wp-content/uploads/ifm_vendor_food-labeling.pdf

sure it "adds up" the person told him his bottles or jugs must have the US volume along with the metric. He then told him him he could just put labels on that had the volume in US so that both are on there. it adds up just fine. Sounds like he was very pleasant about it also.

[happy thoughts]

sure it "adds up" the person told him his bottles or jugs must have the US volume along with the metric. He then told him him he could just put labels on that had the volume in US so that both are on there. it adds up just fine. Sounds like he was very pleasant about it also.

Maybe you're right Kev. I guess what threw me is the way a specific bottle type and seller was mentioned. I originally took it as a complaint about a specific type of container.

I still really think this is more of a label problem than a bottle problem. And I'd bet most state laws will require labeling that includes US units of weight or volume.... and in some cases like NY state, also in metric.

[Haynes Forest Products]

You think thats crazy wait till the EU gets involved:mad: You cant sell items like eggs or cupcakes by the item but by weight. You can mention how many are in package but its buy the weight.

[adk1]

People in the US are just too lazy to do the **** math if you ask me.

[3rdgen.maple]

Southtowns did you contact them first and ask and then he returned your call? If this is the case then there are millions of glass maple bottles and alot of other food porducts on the shelves in grocery store all across the US that are not compliant. I might be wrong but something stirred up the phone call as I cannot fathom that out of the blue they decided to call a maple producerand as far as that goes a small operation with 500 taps. It seems to me they would have alot bigger fish to fry. I was just in Wegmans tonight and they have maple leave bottles from Maple Grove and I dont recall any us measurements on them. And yet a US dealer sold a US customer the glass to begin with. Something is not adding up.

[brookledge]

Then how come it is ok to sell two liter bottles of soda? I have never heard of that being an issue either. I know when I label the 50ml glass leafs I label them 1.7 oz but noone has ever said i have to. As long as you are selling the proper amount that iis labeled then it should be fine
Keith

[Southtowns27]

Ok, here's what happened. We only have one retail outlet. There's a small family operated rural corner store that sells our syrup for us. They also have a small kitchen and make deli sandwiches etc as well as sell deli products. They are inspected by the dept of weights and measures as a result. The inspector just happened to show up today to check things and just happened pick up a glass bottle of our syrup and immediately gave me a "courtesy call" to inform me that it was not in compliance and informed me that he was not giving us nor the store owner a citation...but that a future inspector might not be so nice. He was very polite about it...but really? I told him that the size of the bottle was on the bottom of it, he looked, but then told me that since the US does not use metric measurement, the metric volume on the bottle was not in compliance. I asked if it was ok if I printed a label stating the converted volume to US units and he said that was good to go. I also told him that I would post that info here (not specifically here, but on an online forum dedicated to maple syrup) and he really liked that idea and thanked me for helping him spread the word as well as being so cooperative.
So, all that said, in NY state we have to have the volume of our bottles labeled in US units. I've printed some stickers on my computer and have already applied them to the bottles at the store. It's really not a big deal at all IMO, but I just wanted to spread the word to the rest of the NY producers.

[brookledge]

So I'll ask my question again, How come it is ok to sell 2 liter bottles of soda then?
I know it is easier to just make the change in the label than it is to fight the goverment but I feel he is wrong.
Keith

[3rdgen.maple]

The dude is on something. Nice or not what he is saying makes no sense to me as like I said before if this was indeed the case then there would be alot of empty shelves in our grocery stores. I could not find any notations as to what he said being the case. Dont take it wrong at all Southtowns Im not killing the messenger. I am going to do a little digging and see what I come up with. Thanks for the post.

[Southtowns27]

I missed the 2L soda bottle comment the first time. I'll have to look, but I'd bet that on there somewhere is a measure in Oz. If someone has one in their fridge, check it out and let us know!
Dig and see what you come up with. I just wanted to make my life as easy as possible. It took about 10 minutes of my time to print up some labels and stick them on the bottles.

[3rdgen.maple]

Okay southtowns It is confusing lol. One part says they accept it and the however part is confusing to me. The following is cut and pasted right of the NY state weights and measurement website.

221.5 Declarations of quantity; consumer packages. (a) General. Units of the metric system of weights and
measures and units of the customary system of weights and measures are jointly recognized, and units of either one of
these systems may be used in a declaration of quantity. However, customary equivalents to metric sizes must be
presented on commodities until such time as the Federal Fair Packaging and Labeling Act is amended and the
commissioner deems the consumer is adequately prepared for the sole use of metric declarations.

I just have to add is this stupid or is it just me. One part says yeah go ahead we reconize both measurements and dont care which onw you use and then whaaammm oh by the way you must use the equivilant us measurement untill the commissioner says otherwise. Why cant people just talk laimens terms instead of trying to make themselves feel like they have a brain.

[3rdgen.maple]

Still digging. But heres the link to the fair packaging and labeling act.
FEDERAL TRADE COMMISSION 16 CFR PART 500
REGULATIONS UNDER SECTION 4 OF THE
FAIR PACKAGING AND LABELING ACT
AGENCY: Federal Trade Commission.

ACTION: Final rule.

SUMMARY: The Federal Trade Commission (the "Commission" or "FTC") amends its regulations issued under Section 4 of the Fair Packaging and Labeling Act (FPLA) to require the use of the units of both the customary inch/pound measurement system and the metric measurement system in the net quantity statement for certain consumer commodities. This action is being taken to implement 1992 amendments to the FPLA, which require such dual measurement system disclosure.

EFFECTIVE DATE: February 14, 1994.

So if I understand all of this coreectly the declaration was ammended way back in 1994. So again if I understand this correctly your inspector is only 17 years behind times.

[TF Maple]

So I'll ask my question again, How come it is ok to sell 2 liter bottles of soda then?
I know it is easier to just make the change in the label than it is to fight the goverment but I feel he is wrong.
Keith

2 Liters (2.1 Qt) is what is on the bottles of soda in 2 different locations.

[brookledge]

When I mentioned the 2 liter bottle is was thinking the inspector was saying he couldn't sell the container because it was in metric. Now I see that he only was requesting that it be in oz. along with 50 ml. or just 1.7 oz. As for the 2 liter bottle I have it says 2 liter and then 67.6oz. I still feel there is more important issues to enforce than this
Keith

[S Culver]

We will all be criminals before this is all over, and this is what the goverment wants. You have to be a lawyer or have one on retainer to protect your intrests before you go to work in the morning. When I was in school they taught us metric measuments because (The US was in a few years going to convert to the metic system) !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! This was 30 yrs ago! The goverment has now said the consumer has the right to have it spelled out in 10 different ways about how much is in the bottle because of their own dumdied down lazy high fructose diet. As a cattle producer you can feed your product hormones, steriods, atibiotics and brewery waste and have them stand in their own excriment most of their lives and have no problem getting the usda stamp. This guy goes and buys a 750 ml bottle of wine when he wants to get his wife in the mood or a 750 ml bottle of tequila to do shots with his friends. Lets face it we do not have the clout as say the cattle industry does to keep these guys off us. I know it is easy to say I will comply but this call caught you off guard without any back up this is a way that they start a precidence of compliance and it just rolls on from there.


The test of a free country is weather the people fear the goverment or the goverment fears the people.

Thomas Jefferson

[CBOYER]

Canada turn Metric in 1976, mainly all syrup sell to customers is in 540 ml tin can...never change to 500 ml.. all food store flyers, even after 35 years of metric system, have main prices related to pounds.. i think the best info is to rely to price per ml as comparaison..

[40to1]

I see the inspector's point.

He is essentially protecting the consumer.
For American consumers unsure of of what the equivalent units are between metric and inch/pounds (virtually all of us), having metric-only is confusing.

I think the solution is fair, not too onerous, and helpful to the consumer. My sense is that the bottle manufacturer ought to tweak their moulds so that both units are included.

[3rdgen.maple]

The law was ammended in 94, you can use either means of measurement or both. There is no law stating that you must use standard measurements. I posted the laws in the other post. Glass is already expensive enough and if they have to go back and make changes to the molds then it will be even more money wasted. The inspector is full of crap according to what I dug up.

[Bucket Head]

This is the first time I've heard of this. I have been selling glass for a while now and never heard of this issue. I guess at this point, I would tell everyone to not lose any sleep over it just yet. If you want to put stickers on your bottles to correct it , thats fine. If you just keep doing as your doing now- color, grade, address lables, etc., thats fine too. Until your fingered out of the crowd and told this "new" info directly, or we get a memo from our bottle/maple supplier or the state, I would'nt get too worked up. Its an easy fix if it comes to that.

Knowing how this state operates, the weights & measures dept. is probably in line for cut-backs and forced retirements. So shortly there won't be as many eyeballs out there looking for this nonsense. Just keep doing what your doing and see if this is both the first and last we hear of it.

Steve

[wally]

so it says the volume on it but since it is in standard metric which is used in the entire world except for the U.S. it's not in compliance? Yup sounds like a standard stupid liberal way of thinking.

ignorance is bliss, even if it is ironic.

[happy thoughts]

ignorance is bliss, even if it is ironic.

I don't get why people are so bothered by this:confused: The metric system may be used by most of the world but is not the customary standard of common weight and measure in the US. I bet few Americans know without doing the math what we weigh in kilos. Most of us would probably have a cow if our favorite gas station started selling gas by the liter:lol:

Metric is fine and makes great sense but it's not the usual standard of weight and measure here. Why is there a problem with using the measures that most US customers are most familiar with and why do we have to blame liberals?????

[BryanEx]

From the original post...

they aren't labeled in US units, only metric

My question is why the metric labels in the US to begin with? Are your label suppliers all Canadian companies or something like that? I would have never thought Leader would have metric labels. CDL, D&G, okay... but Leader?

[Southtowns27]

Sheesh guys...I wasn't trying to start a "Maple Producers VS. The Gov't" battle. I just wanted to throw this info out there with the hopes that it could prevent someone else from getting the same call I did. The sucky part is that I really could have gotten a citation, which I'm sure comes with a nice fine. The guy didn't have to give me a courtesy call, but he did. Another inspector may not do that. The law is the law, I just wasn't aware of it. Someone suggested that the bottle manufacterer tweak the bottle to include US measure, I think that's a great idea. Does anyone know exactly who makes the bottles??

[Bucket Head]

I was told, by a Leader dealer, that the glass leaf bottles that Leader sells come from Italy. That was a few years ago so I don't know if they still get them there or not.

Steve

[wally]

why do we have to blame liberals?????

that's what i was pointing to as far as "ignorance is bliss" and "ironic". ;)

[BryanEx]

I was told, by a Leader dealer, that the glass leaf bottles that Leader sells come from Italy.
I'm definitely missing something here. Do the maple leaf bottles that come from Leader have the volume marked directly on the glass or is it an applied label that is the issue?

[Bucket Head]

The Leader bottles have the 100ml, 250ml, etc., molded into the glass on the bottom of each bottle. No other info is on them. Thats the issue here. Apparently inspectors want the U.S. equivalent volume on them as well. Either on the lables or a separate sticker telling the volume, I guess.

Like I said, lets not get too worked up over it yet. I appreciate the heads up on this issue and I'll keep an eye on it on the radar, so to speak. If we all need to correct it at sometime, okay, we'll worry about it then.

But for now, there's no need to take a hammer and break up all the glass bottles you guy's have. You can still use them. I'm just sorry I busted all mine up last night after first reading this post...

Steve

[argohauler]

Was talking with my neighbour today that makes syrup. He was saying that the 100mL maple leaf bottles he was selling were made in Slovakia. Not sure if he got them at Weber's or Atkinson's.

You wouldn't want to pay the price we pay for our gas by the litre and I know in my area, we're pretty cheap compared to a lot of Canada, except Alberta. Today it's $1.30 / litre, so that's $4.91 Canadian for a US gallon.

As for the Lieberal's where ever they may be, they suck! ;)

[3rdgen.maple]

Sheesh guys...I wasn't trying to start a "Maple Producers VS. The Gov't" battle. I just wanted to throw this info out there with the hopes that it could prevent someone else from getting the same call I did. The sucky part is that I really could have gotten a citation, which I'm sure comes with a nice fine. The guy didn't have to give me a courtesy call, but he did. Another inspector may not do that. The law is the law, I just wasn't aware of it. Someone suggested that the bottle manufacterer tweak the bottle to include US measure, I think that's a great idea. Does anyone know exactly who makes the bottles??

But it is not the law. Look it up. Like I said it was ammended in 1994.

[cornell011]

ya thats crazy!!! i like to try an have at least one of every type of bottle or jug (i like variety lol). so all of my bottles are not in compliance?? are they going to start selling the lables for them??

[40to1]

Still digging. But heres the link to the fair packaging and labeling act.
FEDERAL TRADE COMMISSION 16 CFR PART 500
REGULATIONS UNDER SECTION 4 OF THE
FAIR PACKAGING AND LABELING ACT
AGENCY: Federal Trade Commission.

ACTION: Final rule.

SUMMARY: The Federal Trade Commission (the "Commission" or "FTC") amends its regulations issued under Section 4 of the Fair Packaging and Labeling Act (FPLA) to require the use of the units of both the customary inch/pound measurement system and the metric measurement system in the net quantity statement for certain consumer commodities. This action is being taken to implement 1992 amendments to the FPLA, which require such dual measurement system disclosure.

EFFECTIVE DATE: February 14, 1994.



Maybe I'm reading this wrong, but the above is the amended reg. - and it requires both units. Right?...

[Bucket Head]

I believe it is saying both volume measurements also. However, what does the "certain consumer commodities" mean? Which commodities need the dual measures and which ones do not? How is that determined?

Steve

[3rdgen.maple]

221.5 Declarations of quantity; consumer packages. (a) General. Units of the metric system of weights and
measures and units of the customary system of weights and measures are jointly recognized, and units of either one of
these systems may be used in a declaration of quantity. However, customary equivalents to metric sizes must be
presented on commodities until such time as the Federal Fair Packaging and Labeling Act is amended and the
commissioner deems the consumer is adequately prepared for the sole use of metric declarations.
Maybe I am lol. But in the first post (copied above) notice it says customary equivilants to metric sizes must be present on presented on commonitied blah blah blah until the federal fair packaging and labeling act is ammended.

Heres the ruling on the act.
FEDERAL TRADE COMMISSION 16 CFR PART 500
REGULATIONS UNDER SECTION 4 OF THE
FAIR PACKAGING AND LABELING ACT
AGENCY: Federal Trade Commission.

ACTION: Final rule.

SUMMARY: The Federal Trade Commission (the "Commission" or "FTC") amends its regulations issued under Section 4 of the Fair Packaging and Labeling Act (FPLA) to require the use of the units of both the customary inch/pound measurement system and the metric measurement system in the net quantity statement for certain consumer commodities. This action is being taken to implement 1992 amendments to the FPLA, which require such dual measurement system disclosure.

EFFECTIVE DATE: February 14, 1994.SO this tells me it was ammended, if you see in the first one it says units of either one of
these systems may be used in a declaration of quantity so this tells me that we do not need both measurement and that one or the other is okay. Further searching came up with no more current rulings on this. I also got this info off the dept of weights and measure. Did I read this wrong?

[cornell011]

ya thats crazy!!! i have about one of every bottle there is ( i like collecting them lol). are you telling me that all of the are not in compliance?? are they going to start selling the lables for them??

sorry this is a duplicate message, already posted. not sue what i did

[3rdgen.maple]

I believe it is saying both volume measurements also. However, what does the "certain consumer commodities" mean? Which commodities need the dual measures and which ones do not? How is that determined?

Steve

I believe that is probably the key as to them being able to declare what ever they friggin want is unnaceptable. lol Thing is IM not going to make any phone calls to clear it up and put myself on the burner.

[3rdgen.maple]

And just because Im bored and cant sleep I was also wondering if anyone has seen a liquer bottle sold in the us with the standard measurements on it?

[brookledge]

Nope, just finished up my 750ml bottle of Jim Beam
Keith

[802maple]

Keith can you see that far after that? LOL

[brookledge]

It wasn't full at the beginning of the night. so it wasn't that bad. But watch out for the 1.75 liters
Keith

[Ozy]

The NY law was written to allow for the federal law changing so they don't have to change theirs again which is probably a huge pain as is anything to do with laws. My question about the 1994 amendment in fed. law, was it amended to say that both are required or from both to either. it sounds a little like it is requiring both.

ozy

[farmer12071]

why do people really care care what measurement is on the packages,i have customers who ask for their syrup in canning jars and ive asked for years why and the replie i get is "if i need something pretty to look at or read id get a book"and most of the older canning jars ive filled for these customers have no measurement at all.if the customers happy with the quality and quantity for his money who cares.too much government these days,and it seems to target all small business and common folk.

[Ausable]

And just because Im bored and cant sleep I was also wondering if anyone has seen a liquer bottle sold in the us with the standard measurements on it?

That is strange - But - I guess it isn't - the way things are today. When Ronald Reagan was President of the USA - He officially ended America's experiment with the Metric System - His reason was that the majority of the Citizens of America refuse to accept the Metric System and that to continue to push the Metric System was costing the Country to much money and angering its People. Hmmmmmmm! What odd thinking for an American President - Worrying about wasting money. Well - This ending the metric system did not sit well with the Press - as this story was barely metioned. Many of the big manufactures - that sell worldwide - didn't like it either. So here we are - about 25 years later and the Metric Experiment continues. Now I'm not gonna argue about the merits of the Metric System - it is easier to understand. BUT - HEY! Metric measurements on a JIM BEAM Bottle - That There is UN-AMERICAN ----- Just the thought of it reddens my neck - Mike

[BryanEx]

- about 25 years later and the Metric Experiment continues.
I measure my sap in US gallons but my syrup in litres. I couldn't tell you if a quart is larger than a pint or the other way around but I do know red wine comes in 750ml bottles and beer is 341ml. If I catch a big fish it's weighed in pounds but buy Christmas turkey based on kilos. All my building is done in inches but both my car and motorcycle get worked on in millimeters. I measure short distances in feet and car trips in kilometers using mile markers to determine mileage per litre. :rolleyes:

[CBOYER]

I was at technical school in 1976 when Canada turn Metric officialy, so i have to make all drawings and designs in the two systems...after all, i think i was lucky, after 35 years, the two systems lives togethers..

[KenWP]

Being a Western Canadian I find the people here in the east weird.Because of the political party and the bald headed frenchman that gave us the metric system we don't use it much in the west. Everybody gives directions in miles and you have to convert it to find where your going.
Same with words. Out west we use Bomb a deers for snowmobiles and my buddy worked for Bomb a deer for 26 years and the company even called themselves Bomb a deer until the same political party decided to change to name to Bomb bard yar.
I used to be the guy who converted blue prints to metric so people could get a CHMC mortage back in the 70s and early 80s.

[brookledge]

In most cases the US companies just converted what ever they were making into the equivilent in metric. So rather than retool and remake dies, molds, etc it is cheaper to convert it. Bryan, How many 341mls do you drink in a day. I like to say 12 ounce curls. Another thing is metric is based on 10s so is there such thing as a 10 pack. or is it like the US where we go by 6,12,24 etc.
Have you ever seen a 13 ml ratchet? No It is a 1/2" ratchet with metric sockets So cans of beer stayed as 12 ounce but you can't find a pint bottle anywhere.
I could ramble on but I'll shut up
Keith