Big job ahead?, I hope!!

[maple flats]

I just walked a new woods today , after being asked by the landowner to see if I could tap it. Wow, this woods has lots going for it. About 35-40 acres tapable, good slope, about 3-6% constant, but away from the road. There is about 1200' of hedgerow and (including 900') brushy section between the road and the woods, all at about 3% rise on the north side, about 4% on the south side. Landowner is going to talk to 2 different neighbors to see if I can run a mainline about 550' to another road, downhill to the north. This woods was thinned in '97 and it looks like a very good, healthy woods. No big hills or ravines except one drainage that cuts the woods diaganally, flowing north westward. That drainage is not very deeply eroded and is easily walked across. There were few muddy spots even though it rained all day yesterday. The drainage is seasonal. I see potential to tap as many as I now think I will ever want and then some. I'm now thinking I only want to grow to 1500-2000 taps and I have 550 on a piece just down the road from these woods. This one could easily give 1800-2000 taps in itself. (Maybe I might change my biggest someday.
If I can't cross the neighbor, I will need to pump sap at least 1200-2000' or more with a total rise of 50-60'. Time will tell. I'll keep you posted as this developes. I may want ideas for tubing and pump lines as I go.
Dave

[michiganfarmer2]

fantasitc find

[Monster Maples]

Dave, you had better put that plan for an ro into action:D Nice going!!!!

[maple flats]

I just finished typing up a suggested lease agreement for 5 year with an option to renew for 5 more. I will present it to the landowner on Monday for his review and input before finalizing.
I need this for protecting my investment and he needs it to protect his interests and to qualify for an Ag assessment which should save him considerably on his taxes. Hopefully we can come to a quick agreement and proceed.

[maple flats]

I have a question in reguards to this new sugarbush.
I have currently 3 sap ladders on another bush, but the max lift is only 8-9' on any line. What is the max? I can potentially see lifts much higher than that. This bush tilts away from the road at 3-6% drop for 2000-maybe 2800+' distance. If I can't secure permission to run a line across a neighbor to a different road I may need to lift a long way. I know pumping from down back will work but hauling gas in deep snow for 1/2 mile or more would be time consuming. I think I may find a easier rout up one side for elevation, but that side will ba thru a very dense tangle of brush. This would require a path clearing of major magnitude. I'm going to scope the rise on that side soon, with permission.
Any idea what upper limit lifts are? If I use a series of 10' lifts does each act like a new lift or do I need to add the lift at one point to the next and so forth to the end?

[Thompson's Tree Farm]

Total theoretical lift at a single ladder is about 29 feet if you had a perfect vacuum. In the real world I would guess a little over 20 feet will be the max that will work well. You do not have to add the heights of the ladders together. In other words, yes you can run a whole series of 10 foot ladders to raise the sap to 40 or 50 feet. I asked this same question a couple of years ago and you wouldn't believe how hard it was to get a straight answer.
I do hope you manage to get permission to cross the other property because I think that would work better with less vacuum loss.
Doug

[kiegscustoms]

Can you get power to where you would need to pump from? A deep well pump would pump it the elevation you need. If not get a bunch of gas in there before the weather gets bad. A friend of mine has a remote vacuum pump that he has a 40 gal fuel tank hooked to. Seems to work for him. Also make sure if you use a gas pump that it has enough head pressure to lift the elevation you need.

[maple flats]

The problem with gas in there before the season, is that this borders a well traveled snowmobile trail. Security would be an issue. Getting power there would be too costly. A large amp load at 1/2 mile would stagger your imagination. It would require a high output step up transformer and another for back down. If neighbors would not let me cross their property, I can just imagine what they would say to using their elec. Even at that the distance would be in the 7-800' range. Too much voltage drop.
In reguards to a gas pump, I have lots of experience calculating head pressure and line loss. That would not be as big of a problem. I may see a snowmobile and ATV in my future. Haven't had a snowmobile since about 35 yrs ago, never had an ATV. I might be able to store an extra 4x4 compact diesel tractor at the landowner's place and use that. I have chains for all 4 and it is 4WD. I have gone thru 42" settled snow in the past with it, if I stand on the differential lock. That might be an option. I could also get skiis for the front and just use the rears with chains.

[upsmapleman]

I pump all my sap to the sugar house. I run a 10/2 underground wire 1500 feet. It powers a 1/2 horse deep well pump plus lights when needed. No problem. Deep well pumps were made for long electric runs.

Dale

[maple flats]

The bush has become reality. Today we signed the lease on this land and paid a small portion of the lease in syrup, which was the landowners choice.
I now have to better study the property, get topo maps and run elevations. I will determine how to run the lines. I find that one side of the property was more level than originally perceived, and even though it is a jungle I might be able to cut a trail to run a transfer line for pumping from the low end, or maybe even use a sap ladder and pull the sap to the road. First I'll do some mapping and get a better idea of the whole piece before any decisions are made. I will also take an inventory similar to the way a forester determins the tree density, except i will use 8" and up. Not saying I will tap 8's but in the period of the lease they will mature to tapable size and should be counted now. I may even higher a forester to help.
Now the real work begins. I am excited to have this opertunity and now I must get an RO or I can never handle the 5-600 more taps I want to add for 2012. Then the second year I will add at least as many more again, and as many years as it takes to fully utilize the bush.
One of the things that helped the landowner sign is the ag assessment his woods will qualify for. Based on my lease form he also made another for his fields that were already being planted by a farmer but with no written lease that land could not be ag assessed. In NYS at least, Ag assessment cuts taxes by a good % for the landowner.

[ennismaple]

Total theoretical lift at a single ladder is about 29 feet if you had a perfect vacuum. In the real world I would guess a little over 20 feet will be the max that will work well. You do not have to add the heights of the ladders together. In other words, yes you can run a whole series of 10 foot ladders to raise the sap to 40 or 50 feet. I asked this same question a couple of years ago and you wouldn't believe how hard it was to get a straight answer.

Ask again 12 months from now and I'll give you a straight answer. I have a triple sap ladder (3 x 8ft lifts) that is half built that I plan to have online for next season. The steel is run and half the mainlin is up. I think we'll make the upper mainlines 1" and use 3 x 2-pipe ladders for better vacuum transfer.

Sorry to hi-jack this thread - awersome find on the new woods! I'm sure you're like a kid in the candy store planning what you want to do!

[maple flats]

For ease of installation I was thinking more lifts but less at each. Maybe like 3'/. Does any one know if 3 3' lifts is as efficient as 1 9' lift? On my existing vacuum bush I have 3 sap ladders, but not in a series. Each is on a different line, that join together down stream.

[gmcooper]

Dave, Congrats on the new bush! Always good to find more than you need. I just met with a landowner today. Similar layout runs away from the road. Have to find a route to a closer road on downhill side. Landowner had it thinned 15+ years ago. Lots of planning to do.
Mark

[3rdgen.maple]

Congrats but I want to know more about the ag assesment deal. I have made several phone calls over the past 2 years and each time I get the same answer. "you need to show proof that you made 10 grand off syrup produced from the land until it qualifies" So do tell what do you know the ag dept is not telling me.

[Thad Blaisdell]

Lift depends on vacuum. 1" vacuum = 1 foot of lift. so if you have 21 inches of vacuum you will be able to lift 21 feet. Not all at once. I have several at 12 feet in one swipe, I run 27 inches of vacuum.

[Thompson's Tree Farm]

3rdgen,
You need to be able to show total farm income of $10000. This need not all come from maple if you have other enterprises and it need not all come from a single parcel of land. You will need a schedule F federal tax form to prove your total farm income. If your local tax assessor won't approve it, check with co-op extension and the county farm bureau for assistance.

[maple flats]

Congrats but I want to know more about the ag assesment deal. I have made several phone calls over the past 2 years and each time I get the same answer. "you need to show proof that you made 10 grand off syrup produced from the land until it qualifies" So do tell what do you know the ag dept is not telling me.

Not true, unless that is your only production land. The Ag assessment does require you to make $10,000 or more in farm sales average, and the proof is from your tax return, that is sales, not profit. You do not need to make it all in Syrup and related value added products and do not need to make it all on the piece of land applying for ag assessment. It can be syrup, etc, vegies, berries etc, and must average the $10,000 the last 2 years, (and you must re apply every year. The initial form is rather long and complicated, but renewal forms are fast and easy, as long as there were no changes. I fact I just renewed 7-8 parcels and it took less than 30 minutes to complete the paperwork.
Your initial application must include soil types (and a soil map from the Soil and Water Conservation District, tax parcel numbers, and lots of other info. The renewal only confirms those details (any changes?) and you again fill in the sales figures AS REPORTED ON YOUR FED TAX RETURN.
If you have any further questions I'll try to help.

[maple flats]

3rdgen,
You need to be able to show total farm income of $10000. This need not all come from maple if you have other enterprises and it need not all come from a single parcel of land. You will need a schedule F federal tax form to prove your total farm income. If your local tax assessor won't approve it, check with co-op extension and the county farm bureau for assistance.

Or your local Assemblyman. In NYS also use bill Magee, the head of the Assembly Ag committee. He is my local assemblyman, but being the chairman of the ag committee he will help get you the info necessary to get this money saving measure in place.

[maple flats]

I pump all my sap to the sugar house. I run a 10/2 underground wire 1500 feet. It powers a 1/2 horse deep well pump plus lights when needed. No problem. Deep well pumps were made for long electric runs.

Dale

I'd need to calculate the line loss, but it must be very high. See a line loss chart.. If it is 240 the chart does not change, because that is just 2- 120V legs to cut the amps needed.I can't post the chart but go to www.solarseller.com, click on index and toward the bottom is a line loss chart. a few numbers from it for 2% line loss are as follows: 8A=150', 10A=120', 15A=70' and 20A=55'. You may be going 1500' on 10ga but the line loss would be so high the motor WILL suffer early failure in all likelyhood. You may have been lucky so far but don't count on it lasting. Even going to 6G wire the numbers are:355, 285, 190 and 145' for the same amperages. You can usually be safe at a voltage of 108 or more at the motor, so the acceptable drop will depend on the voltage input and you should use a meter that tracks it over several days and use the lowest voltage reading to be safe.

[maple flats]

Another route would be a step up transformer at the source and step down transformer at the pump. The higher the voltage the lower the line loss. That is why power transmission lines are not real big, they are being pushed by very high voltages, several thousand volts as a matter of fact. You would not be able to get over 600 volts in most common wire, but there are wires available for higher voltages.

[maple flats]

Back to my new bush. I will be walking it this weekend and starting a plan. I have also talked to my local dealer who said he will walk it with me for his ideas.

[3rdgen.maple]

Well I guess it is true then cause I have no other income of the land as far as any agriculture goes, Its all maple. Oh well. I will be there soon enough anyways to reap those bennies. Thanks for the info.

[220 maple]

Maple Flats,
Just out of curosity? Do you know where the 215,000 tap operation is being built in New York State.
Mark 220 Maple

[3rdgen.maple]

Maple Flats,
Just out of curosity? Do you know where the 215,000 tap operation is being built in New York State.
Mark 220 Maple

Where did you hear about that? I cant imagine a 210,000 tap bush in NY without some traveling involved. Our Maples are plenty for sure but are widespread. Curious if this is true.

[Thompson's Tree Farm]

I heard the same sort of story. 200,000 + tap bush in the Catskills. Not sure if it is true but it makes for a great conversation piece.

[nhmaple48]

Dover Plains

[3rdgen.maple]

I heard the same sort of story. 200,000 + tap bush in the Catskills. Not sure if it is true but it makes for a great conversation piece.

What are they going to tap pine trees lol.

[CBOYER]

i look on the map where is Dover plains, and next place is Oniontown, that will give a very bad taste to syrup :lol:

[Flat Lander Sugaring]

What are they going to tap pine trees lol.

hey! leave the pine trees up to me dangit!:lol:

[220 maple]

215,000 taps
During my trip to Vermont driving for Mr. Henry. He said he turned down the chance to send his crew of tubing installers, stated it was to far from home. That's my source, you can't believe anything them Amish tell you or can You???????. I never asked him exactly where this operation is located. He did say several NY city investors was behind this big project. I have never been there, how many Sugar trees are in Central Park? Lol.

Mark 220 Maple

[3rdgen.maple]

220 Im not saying it isnt possible or discrediting your source, I am and was curious as to who and where this is suppose to happen as I just cant picture enough trees in one area to get that many taps online in NY. Theres alot of land in NY but most I have to imagine is state land which is also what most of the castskills is. A couple years ago I questioned the state about tapping maples on state land in a section of land that was deemed a right away by the state for fisherman that I own and 2 sections of state land that borders mine that is surrounded by private land owners and has zero accessfor the public to enter. They told me I opened up a can of worms and if I would have just tapped them instead of asking it would have been alot easier to ask for forgiveness than to ask for permission. I ended up with a final response of, If we allowed you to tap we had to open it up to the public to tap as well (fine by me there was no access to it from the public) If we allow you to tap you cannot use any type of motorized vehicle to tap or collect, If we allow you to tap you cannot run any tubing to restrict the public or wildlife from getting through the land, and oh by the way we are not going to give you permission at this time. I know there was talk amongst legislatures to get our state tap count up and allowing people to tap state trees was being presented to albany at one point and the same guidlines applied at that time. Personally I have very mixed emptions about an operation this size in NY. I cant see how it would be of any benefit to us small producers. I would rather see a 100 2000 taps operations opening than one big one dominating the market and killing retail pricing for the rest of us.

[3rdgen.maple]

And SORRY Mapleflats for stealing this thread. My appologies.

[220 maple]

3rdgenmaple,
I agree with you to find anywhere that one could put out 200,000 taps seems unbelieveable. The next time I go to Henry's for supplies I'll try to find out more info. When we came back from Vermont on Saturday the 17th we took the Interstate between Albany and Bingingham. Henry kept point to the mountains and saying look at the Sugars there. After about a half hour of that I could spot groves of Maples myself. There was sections along that road that appears to be all sugars. I do know that when Henry and I went to Fairfield, Vermont. We visited operations that totaled over 168,000 taps, we past others that looked to be big operations also, All within a 10 mile radius. Food for Thought.
My apologies to Mapleflats also, thought he might have heard a rumor?

Mark 220 Maple

[maple flats]

That is OK. I had not heard of any large operation in NY. Back to my bush. I did not make it out last weekend because the rain was too hard but I am going tomorrow. I have a friend with surveying apprentice time in who is going to help the landowner mark the lines. On the deed it is just one parallelogram and should be fairly easy if we can find at least one corner stake. I will take my metal detector to help. After the lines are marked I am going to get some elevations in regards to the sap line to the main tank from the in woods tank to see how much I need to lift or push the sap on it's way from the low corner to the road up to 2640' away. Then we are going to finish pulling taps and cleaning lines as I still have about 200 more to do in my existing vacuum bush. Next week I think the local dealer is going to walk the new bush with me to help plan.

[maple flats]

We got out yesterday and marked the boundary lines. We were lucky because we found 2 corners along one side. I tried to get elevation levels using my hand held sight level. After getting home I got to thinking something must be online. I ended up using google maps and a coordinate/elevation site to answer my question. In google maps I just right clicked on the point I want the elevation, and click on "what's here". This gives me the coordinates in degrees and to 6 decimal places. Then I pluged those into the elevation finder and I got the elevation. Here's a link: http://www.gpsvisualizer.com/elevation
I did this all along the boundary I want to run and found the starting elevation, max rise and ending elevation for a net rise or lift. It also gave me the distance, .33 miles (or about 1742') at 40' max rise and 30' net rise. Now I can use this info to decide which approach I want, Hydrovac?, vacuum with sap ladders? or something else? Another thing I need to do is find a way to clear a path through almost 1/4 mile of very dense brush and another 3-400' thru woods/dense brush to get to where I think I want a woods tank. Then a line or set of wet/dry lines will run the 1742 +/-' to a tank roadside. The sight I think I want the woods tank is at the downhill end of a stone fence that is at least 700' long and is dominated by med age sugars, in some places there is what looks like an old cow path with 2 lines on sugars. Many of them were in the 12-18" range and they were adjacent to what must have been an open pasture maybe 50-75 yrs ago, they have real good canopies. Much of the rest of this bush has a well thinned woods with a very good ratio of sugar maples. This bush will take a lot to get the main infrastructure in but then it will be a very good bush. I have a 5 yr lease with an option to re new for another 5 years.

[adk1]

Fairfield VT has a very high concentration of producers. I remember driving from St. Albans to Fairfield during sugarin season and being amazed on the number of steam plumes dotted the landscape.

[220 maple]

3rdgen an adk1,
I talked to my source about the large operation going in New York, He said it's in the Catskills region, The truck driver that delivers items from leader to him already delivered the first evaporator to this new bush. He does not know the exact name they are operationing under, Brad from Leader asked him if he wanted to send a crew of tubing installers, as stated before he said it was to far to travel.
Someone in the Catskills area should know something about this 215000 taps?

Mark 220 Maple

[3rdgen.maple]

WOW is all I can say. Im wondering if this is what started out as the big big development in the catskills awhile back. There was a very vast section of land that was privately owned and there was a big resort and golf courses etc trying to get through the red tape and be built, It got squashed if I recall because of the size alone it needed something like 3 sewage treatment plants alone to support it. NY city got it shut down before it started in fear of what would happen to their water supply that comes from that area. Last I heard the guy was looking for ideas and investors to do something else but what I dont know. Maybe this is what it turned out to be. I hope this does not kill our retail market here in NY.

[cabincountrymaple]

There is a good article about the "Crown Maple" operation that is talked about for Dutchess County, NY, (on the east side of the Hudson River) in the current issue of Maple News. :)

[maple flats]

I've now planned the tubing layout for up to 3000 taps. I have ordered and will run 1600' of conductor wet dry line, 1.25" wet and 1.5" dry. Then I will run mains for the first 600 (maybe 700) taps. I ordered a double vac operated releaser. I ordered 3500' of 3/4 main and 15 coils of 5/16, along with all fittings needed to set it up. This was all ordered to get the 10% discount. I will start installing the end of the month.
Early on I was wondering about sap transport to the road, I now have permission to cross a neighbor to get to the nearest road from where the tank will set.
Things are looking good.
Now I need to build a spooler for everything from 3/4" x 1000' to 1.5" x 400' that will mount on a trailer I have. I may just make one large wooden spool and mount it with a drive pulley on one end and wind the tubing onto it if I don't come up with a design to retro spool the different sizes onto the same spool, one size at a time.
If $ hold up I'll try for 700 taps additional for 2012 and then try to add all he rest before 2013. That additional expansion will cost less since the main conductors will all be installed with the first part.

[sugarmountain]

maple flatts, what are you going to use for equipment in the woods? leader, lapierre? just curious

[maple flats]

My releaser is coming from my Leader dealer. The first year I will use a dairy vac, then the second and beyond I will order a maple unit. I have not decided brand or type yet but I want something that can get 25-26" or better. My first year will likely be 20" or whatever is good with a dairy vacuum. The decision for what to get the second year will be made so I can order in May 2012 for the discount most offer. I will study the possibilities then. I'll likely look real hard at the Verona show in Jan. 2012 to make the plans.

[maple flats]

I just picked up 3/4 of the tubing today, my dealer will bring the rest on Friday as he passes thru to see his mom. Now I need to build a spooler that can be used for everything from 3/4" to 1.5", a design I have in mind. Then I need to design a mount to attach it to my trailer that I hook behind the ATV. I'm coming up with some ideas for that. Next week I plan to begin the tubing install. Will do the wet dry conductor line and the 3/4" mains. Then later I'll do the laterals.

[maple flats]

Dealer never brought it as promised, I had to go pick it up myself. Still waiting for some small stuff. Ordered in My and still not in as of Aug 31. Seems like a long wait. I wanted to have it all installed before Labor Day.
Now I'm working on an addition for my RO, with cellar for cool storage.