Maple Tap Act

[Barry44]

Not sure if this is the right forum for this topic, but here goes. Recently collected sap with a good friend and mentioned this "Maple Tap Act" to him. Being that I am a new land owner aspiring to begin producing maple products in the next year or two, I thought this potential availability to funding to be a good thing. He stopped the tractor in it's tracts. He believes this could cause the begining of the end for the small producer, and that the prices of syrup will be driven down. As much as I could benefit from free money, I am unsure I should be rooting for this Act to be added to the 2012 Farm Bill. Any thoughts out there? Should you/and soon to be me, be contacting our local representatives?

[ELM_DALE_MAPLE]

Yeah I read some about this in the newspaper and it is scary to me. This will affect producers in all states. The government needs to stay out of maple production IMO.

[802maple]

I have not formed a opinion yet as to how I feel yet, but I will say there is no such thing as "free money", it comes from our taxes and we are in a financial bind in this country and until that is solved, it probably should be put on a back burner. I know people are going to say it will stimulate the economy, but I am not convinced yet. I guess I do have an opinion after all.

[802maple]

If they want to do something, free up all of"our land" that is owned both by our states and federal government and allow us to tap them. Let us figure out how to get the financing. If you really want it there is a way and it won't be on the backs of others.

[ELM_DALE_MAPLE]

If they want to do something, free up all of"our land" that is owned both by our states and federal government and allow us to tap them. Let us figure out how to get the financing. If you really want it there is a way and it won't be on the backs of others.

I like the idea

[highlandcattle]

More info please. Exactly what is this about?

[802maple]

I have a lot of researching to do about it, but in a nutshell, it is a bill that is trying to go thru that will give grants to sugarmakers to expand their operations so as to not have to import as much syrup in from outside the country (ie canada).

[happy thoughts]

Interesting. I never heard of the Maple Act until reading your post. A little googling brought up some more info.

http://schumer.senate.gov/record.cfm?id=332220&

http://maple.dnr.cornell.edu/pubs/MapleTAPAct.pdf

It seems this act has been introduced several times before and has not passed. Considering the state of the US federal budget, it seems unlikely to pass now, imho. That said, it appears the target competitor is Canada so any increase in US production will hurt them first since the US is their largest export market. Your friend may have a point though about driving prices down unless the US also develops some sort of syrup reserves along the lines of what Canada does now to keep prices stable. (correction- it is specifically Quebec that does this and not Canada as a whole as per BryanEx's post above)

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/quebec-maple-syrups-strategic-reserve/article1972076/

As for hurting small producers, maybe, but with stricter food safety laws enacted by many states recently it seems many small producers will need grants to get into the business or stay in it to comply with the latest regulations. I'd probably rather see cottage laws enacted like the one in Michigan which allows small producers entry into the market then outright grants that seem more likely to promote a large maple agribusiness at the loss of many small farm and woodlot producers. Again, just my 2 cents.

[happy thoughts]

I have not formed a opinion yet as to how I feel yet, but I will say there is no such thing as "free money", it comes from our taxes and we are in a financial bind in this country and until that is solved, it probably should be put on a back burner. I know people are going to say it will stimulate the economy, but I am not convinced yet. I guess I do have an opinion after all.

I agree. It reminds me of the famous Reagan quote about the ten most dangerous words in the English language- "Hi, I'm from the government, and I'm here to help." :lol:

[BryanEx]

Your friend may have a point though about driving prices down unless the US also develops some sort of syrup reserves along the lines of what Canada does now to keep prices stable.
Just a clarification on this point - it is only the Province of Quebec (which of course is the largest producer) that operates a reserve / quota system. All other provinces operate as a free market.

[maple flats]

I'm still considering the possible effects. I think most will be determined by the pending global economy. The world is in a total mess. If the global economy fails, which is quite possible, we need not worry about how this or any other legislation affects the syrup prices.
We produce a food product, and even though it is a luxary item, those with money will buy. The price may slide but it will reflect our cost of living as related to the rest of the economy. This means, with economic collapse, syrup prices may go in either direction, but we will not suffer a big drop while everything around us goes up.
In post WW 2 Germany their prices went up, so to buy a loaf of bread they needed a wheel barrow full of cash. We don't want that.
If the global economy survives the turmoil, we stand to be in a good position with more syrup, if it doesn't, prices relative to our other costs will drop. Exports will dry up and that drives a big portion of the syrup prices, domestic use no longer is great enough to keep prices where we think they should be.

[OGDENS SUGAR BUSH]

I have a lot of researching to do about it, but in a nutshell, it is a bill that is trying to go thru that will give grants to sugarmakers to expand their operations so as to not have to import as much syrup in from outside the country (ie canada).

oh my god and the junk we let in from china

[happy thoughts]

Just a clarification on this point - it is only the Province of Quebec (which of course is the largest producer) that operates a reserve / quota system. All other provinces operate as a free market.

Thanks Bryan. I edited my post to reflect the correct info. That said, as the largest syrup producer in the world the fact that Quebec needs to stabilize prices in this manner should tell all of us something about the law of supply and demand. I think the article I posted from the Globe and Mail said Quebec only consumes a small portion of their own production and exports the rest and that exports are down.

It seems to me instead of agrigrants more work should be done on expanding the existing market including being more protective about what can be marketed as maple... for instance what VT has done with McDonalds maple oatmeal which contains no maple at all. There are still many people who think pancake syrups are maple syrup. That doesn't say much for the maple industry in how well they've promoted their product or made the general public aware of what exactly that is.

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

I really can't see how it would be a good thing. A few will benefit while everyone else pays for the ones that benefit. It goes hand in hand with these energy grants the government has been giving out to maple producers. A select few benefit while the others pay. This is the kind of things that need to be stopped so we can stop the bleeding as a country and for the sake of our children too. If someone wants land, then they can buy it same with a new RO and steamaway. I like free things as much as the next guy, but this is what has gotten us to the huge mess we are in economically. If you can't afford it, then that means you probably don't need it.

[PATheron]

If a guy get free government money hell put 10 million taps out and flood the market with sap till it isnt worth anything and then syrup wont be worth crap. Plus the guy buying stuff with his own money that doesnt want ties with the government wont be able to compete and his syrup wont be worth anything either. Leave the government out of the whole deal. Theron

[sapman]

I'll agree with Theron and others. Look at what government involvement has done to every other industry their into. I've paid for all my stuff myself (and paid interest on lots of it foolishly, probably). But it's my responsibility, not the gov. or other taxpayers.

[Barry44]

Great responses to this thread. As much as I would like my entry into maple production to be as painless as possible, I would rather struggle with getting set up than to sell out to the government. My memories of maple production began with helping a neighbor gather sap... probably 30-35 years ago. The roots of this tradition are deep in family and community. It needs to remain as this. The mega producers will likely remain, but lets not help to make any more of them. Here in NYS we should probably let our local reps know how we feel.

[allgreenmaple]

If a guy get free government money hell put 10 million taps out and flood the market with sap till it isnt worth anything and then syrup wont be worth crap. Plus the guy buying stuff with his own money that doesnt want ties with the government wont be able to compete and his syrup wont be worth anything either. Leave the government out of the whole deal. Theron Could not agree more. Why can't other people earn their own way like we do?:rolleyes:

[ELM_DALE_MAPLE]

Allgreen, Barry, and other fellow NY producers I would ask you to contact your reps on behalf of us who do not reside in NY and oppose this thing. It would be greatly appreciated!!

[802maple]

Everyone needs to contact their reps about this to voice your opinion.

[CBOYER]

If gov. give money to producers, they will create a problem whit free trade agreement. There is no money for producer in Qc, but they have taxes and ask new money each years for "market developpement and representation"
Quebec Has quotas, and i heard that a lot of people have to wait up to 4 years to start a new operation. Right now, they only stabilized only existing ones. In Qc., Gov is in everything, we are the more taxed in North America, and i dont think that we have so much for our money..

[DrTimPerkins]

If gov. give money to producers, they will create a problem whit free trade agreement. There is no money for producer in Qc, but they have taxes and ask new money each years for "market developpement and representation"

Just to play devil's advocate here, it is not entirely the case that Canadian syrup has been unsubsidized by the provincial government. For MANY years, the province leased crown land to maple producers at ridiculously low rates to encourage the development of the maple industry. They succeeded in stimulating production so much that the government (through the Federation) had to buy up and store the surplus syrup, pump $ into market development of maple (which they're still doing now), and more recently, to institute produciton quotas.

The result of that subsidy, in some ways, was that bulk prices in the U.S. were depressed for quite a long time as they were being kept artificially low due to major packers in the U.S. shifting their buying of syrup from U.S. producers to cheap Canadian sources. This was particularly lucrative (for the packers) during the years when the Canadian dollar was very low relative to the U.S. dollar, but it caused U.S. produced syrup to be worth much less than it would have been if the provinicial subsidy had not been in place. The result was a drop off in U.S. production as Quebec production skyrocketed. The only reason that bulk syrup prices are reasonably good now is that Quebec has a quota and the Canadian dollar is high.

The entire thing has come full-circle now, as with decent bulk prices, maple operations in the U.S. are again expanding rapidly at the same time that Quebec producers are not allowed to make more syrup than their quota allows. U.S. maple production is presenting matching the growth in the global marketing of maple syrup (paid for by Quebec and the federal Canadian government), which basically just helps ensure the Quebec producer quota remains in effect.

Please don't interpret this as being anti-Quebec maple producer or anti-packer. It is not meant that way at all. The entire issue is extremely complex and happened over several decades.

[CBOYER]

First, i am not here to create any misunderstanding. i am french speaking, and i have to translate a lot of things before writing here, this help me to keep my english, since i no more working in chemicals industries.
i never even sold myself a quart of syrup, made only for me and friends.

But i understand that Quebec system is very complex (everything is complex in Qc..) and is write in french so i try to give an idea of what it is, and i try myself sometimes to understand it. I also talk to some friends producers in the quotas system, and the only money from Gov. came from Agriculture Canada, and is only a "prepaid" for a part production already delivered to Federation, a kind of credit margin.

Federation is entierly financed by producer, and they dont "buy" syrup from producer: They received it, store it, sell it and paid only after sale is concluded. Of course first money in is for them.

this year the average price paid to producer is around 2.78$ per pound, not so far from what i read on this site 2.75$ in U.S. But you have the advantage to be paid at delivery...

Right now for production of 2010, producer have received only around 55%of total amount.

I try to find what percentage of taps in Qc are on crown land or "state land" as you called them (i have hunt deer for many years on NY state lands) but already find nothing. In Eastern Township it will probablynot so much, nearly everything is private. but i know that around Temiscouta theres a lot. will follow this.

Since i'm retired for health problems, i have fun to read all technical information here, as i was working in Heavy chemicals industries, sometimes whit Dr's in rechearch centers in Sweden. (at this times, i was the devils advocate:evil:) I am very happy for all of us that you gave direct informations to all by this site, if you try to find something like it in Qc, they will tell you to hires a forestry engineer to get the infos.

[KenWP]

Basically what Boyer is trying to say is the federation pays a rate ot $2:78 right now and then if it sells for more they get more money later in the form of bounus.Sometimes they are more sometimes less.Depends how the syrup sells.The thing that is good about it is they can get all the syrup on quota sold bulk no problem and they can sell extra at the farm gate. You have to see the storage tanks at Citadell which is the correct name of the federation by the way.

[CBOYER]

I have to correct you KenWP, federation make an agreement whit buyers and will pay to producer between 2.22$ and 2.83$ per pound only at pro-rata of sales. all producers on quotas have received now only 55% of their money for 2010. Some of them have qualify for Federal program and have received 70%. They will never received more from federation. At start of season 2010, syrup stocks were lows, and some authorized buyers offer bonus to producer for direct deliveries to them, but under quotas.

Any producer could sell at farm gate, outside of quotas, maximum size of container is 5 liters, to non commercial customers (no resales).

Federation of Quebec Maple producers represents all producers on quotas and is mandatory by law. Citadelle is only a group of 2000 producers that make their own retail and marketing, and is voluntary.You have to meet their requirements, but you will be paid by federation sales agency.

[KenWP]

That wasn't how it was explained to me by my boss but then I was speaking in three languages to get that far with him. My neighbour tells me he gets paid three times on the syrup he makes. The quota price and the grade bonus and the packer bonus but hes a english speaking person. It is almost as complicated as they way we sold grain back west where we don't legally own our own grain due to federal law.

[TapME]

If those who know more get involved (Uncle Sam) nothing good can come from it. I just don't know how I lived this long without them telling me what I was doing wrong!!!!!!!