To throw ice away or not ? [Archive]

smokeyamber

03-28-2011, 10:16 AM

Ok, so it's cold here and I have lots of ice , in buckets, pans, storage containers of sap. Popular idea is to chuck the ice and the remaining liquid will be the more concentrated sap. My question : is this true ?

I hate to be throwing sap away since I don't boil alot, but I also hate wasting wood to melt ice if it's got no sugar in it.

Was there any scientific test done to prove either way ?

Thanks !

PerryW

03-28-2011, 10:43 AM

Drink some of the sap and you will notice how sweet is. I chuck my ice as there's not enough sugar to waste wood on. It's the poor man's RO. Course, if the whole bucket is frozen solid I wouldn't, but I try to avoid that.

adk1

03-28-2011, 10:55 AM

We recently tested this theory. We took enough solid ice off and let it melt. added the now unfrozen "water" to the hydro cup and with the sap hydrometer measured the brix. It was exactly 2%.

happy thoughts

03-28-2011, 11:14 AM

Dr Perkins posted something about this just a week or two ago. He cited research that concluded that there was enough sugar content in frozen sap to make it worth processing.

Personally, I would never toss ice, For one, I don't usually get enough sap to be that wasteful. And logically, to think that sap ice contains no sugar just makes no sense to me. The fact that if temps get low enough whole buckets of sap will freeze kind of blows the theory that only water freezes off sap, to my mind at least.

RileySugarbush

03-28-2011, 11:15 AM

Ice around the rim and top of a bucket will have nearly no sugar in it. If a bucket freezes nearly to the center then sugar is being frozen on the inner edge. As it thaws, sometimes the outer edges will thaw first releasing mostly water and leaving some of the more concentrated stuff locked in ice.

Once a bag has frozen solid we don't throw out the ice. Clearly all the sugar is still in there! If it is partially frozen, then the ice along the edges can be thrown away.

smokeyamber

03-28-2011, 11:34 AM

Whew, I have thrown some away, but mostly I have been using it. I found the note from Dr. Perkins and will keep it from now on. If I get buried in sap I may have to chuck some since I don't have enought storage or wood to do it all anyway, but for now I am keeping up boiling a few hours each night. Guess I need to ... upgrade :lol:

steve J

03-28-2011, 11:46 AM

Well you are not alone with frozen sap I have 50 buckets either full or 3/4 full frozen solid as a rock and two large holding tanks frozen solid. When the weather starts to warm tomorrow my holding tanks have some capacity left but 2/3 of the buckets are full and frozen this has been a tough spring so far but rest of week looks great once thise freeze breaks.

DrewCP

03-28-2011, 11:53 AM

I just picked up a sap hydrometer last weekend. My 20 gallon test bin with ice formed on top and sides had the liquid sap @ +/- 3.5% with the thawed ice sap measuring @ +/- 1.25%. We have always boiled down our ice but I may rethink now.

RileySugarbush

03-28-2011, 12:15 PM

Exactly, Drew!

If you value your time and fuel, think about tossing out the ice on the edge of the bucket. If you want every possible drop of syrup, melt and boil it all.

25 gallons of the freeze concentrated sap to get a gallon of syrup. 2.5 hours to get a gallon if SmokeyAmber's barrel evaporator boils at 10gph.

69 gallons or nearly 7 hours to get the gallon out of the ice, not including the time and energy to melt it.

It is all about priorities.

smokeyamber

03-28-2011, 12:29 PM

steve J, Bet you are loving the mud this year in Middlesex... I managed to get my buckets mostly empty, problem is my collection buckets froze solid !

Sounds better for later in week. Gotta go cut some more wood ( dead standing stuff... ) or I will run out of it just when I need it.

In Middlesex, Vt waiting on the sap.

seclark

03-28-2011, 12:45 PM

my first boil was 55 gallons and and yielded 154 oz's of syrup.Saturday I boiled what sap that I could collect that was not frozen and had 25 gallons and yielded 112 oz's of syrup and boiled it in half the time.As a small back yarder I will not boil the ice.However if it gets warm then the ice is welcome to keep the sap cold.Just my 2 cents.

steve J

03-28-2011, 12:56 PM

Were are you in middlesex? I am at the end of Notch road on the left just after the fish and wildlife parking lot. The roads have not been to bad yet but center road is interesting and by end of week I suspect its going to be down right nasty

John c

03-28-2011, 12:58 PM

RileySugarbush

03-28-2011, 01:24 PM

The secret is throwing out the ice!

seclark

03-28-2011, 01:25 PM

John c

03-28-2011, 01:57 PM

I guess the poor mans ro with the ice helped but I was surprised to get that much myself.Maybe I got super maples this year.:lol: but last year wasn't this good.Maybe the next boil will bring me down to earth.

I use to throw my ice out on the ground until a fellow Sapper saw me do it and corrected my evil ways by testing it and it turned out to be 2%!

Gary in NH

03-28-2011, 02:06 PM

If it's a little ice on top I'd dump it. If its more than just a coating I would let it melt and use it. Sap will freeze so if it's a couple of inches thick you will lose some sugar if you toss it. Collect some of the ice and let it melt in a bucket inside then check it with a sap hydrometer to see what percent sugar is in it.

Wardner in Tewksbury

03-28-2011, 02:11 PM

I have a digital maple sap refractometer. I tested a small piece of 1/4" thick sap ice this morning. It came in at 0.4%. At this point in the season, normal sap from this particular sugar maple is around 2.6% and that's what I got several hours later. That's six and one half times better than sap ice. I see no point in keeping thin ice. It can't even absorb alot of heat.

smokeyamber

03-28-2011, 03:07 PM

So consensus is thin ice out, frozen solid keep ? I can go with that. Shortening boiling times is always a good thing

More sap coming this week, so time to get my storage tanks empty !

at the beginning of Notch... waiting for Center road to grow some Volkswagens out of the mud...

steve J

03-28-2011, 03:18 PM

Oh I think I have seen your buckets they sit on the steep of the bank . Your house is down near the pond? I am the log cabin at the end of the road just pass the fish and wildlife area

smokeyamber

03-28-2011, 03:25 PM

That's it, buckets are new this year, I tapped trees last year on road near Leahy's place, but found 31 trees right on the hillside to tap. They are perfect for a gravity tubing setup, but I haven't decided to do that just yet.

First year boiling under cover too, so lots of upgrades.

Been by your place hiking the Notch, bet you guys see lots of wildlife up there !

John c

03-28-2011, 03:26 PM

steve J

03-28-2011, 03:32 PM

yes lots of wild life and I took a couple of deer last year one rather big at 193lb and son got a bear . I just put in all new lines last fall as my first set up did not work well . This set up is working very very well. The steep of the bank you have is ideal for the tubing.

CBOYER

03-28-2011, 04:02 PM

Dont have any scientific explanation, but sometimes sugar separate completely from ice in bucket, leaving a very little qty of sweet sap in it. other times, you can see in the ice block the difference of color in the middle when is really hard frozen. maybe is freezing time, very fast, slow, than could make the difference??

RileySugarbush

03-28-2011, 04:54 PM

Well here is a scientific explanation!

I haven't waded completely through it but freezing rate does seem to be a factor.

RileySugarbush

03-28-2011, 05:57 PM

http://www.foodscience.uoguelph.ca/dairyedu/freeztheor.html

1badsapper

03-28-2011, 06:36 PM

I have heard the same thing. We don't throw it away. I used to help friends with their operation, they sold syrup & didn't pitch it.

New sap guy
46 taps & buckets
Home made stainless evaporator.

maple island farms

03-28-2011, 08:12 PM

WE have tested some ice that we thawed and got better than 1 percent. We now keep it all.

70 Buick

03-28-2011, 08:24 PM

well I kept it all this weekend (No choice)
we only go up on the weekend & I run a tube to a 6 gallon pail on the ground
it was -18 & -22 on Thursday & Friday, so I had nothing but 35 6 gallon icebergs

I will boil it when it melts LOL

Then again it is all in fun , & I have at least 15 chords of free wood that is just for my maple fun
Wood is plentyfull & free around here , they build new roads every year & the guy who cuts the trees down is my neighbor
we are freinds & he dumps a few trees a week at the end of my driveway all cut to 6ft

Ahnohta2

03-28-2011, 08:31 PM

TapME

03-28-2011, 08:36 PM

we throw it all out. It doesn't make sence to burn wood for 1% sweet. If it warm out I will keep it to keep the sap cool. I can see both sides, htis is mine.

KenWP

03-28-2011, 08:37 PM

If I threw the ice away I would have nothing to boil.Sort of neat to watch a big ice cube melt in the pan also.I ladle the hot sap over the chunks and see how fast I can make a hole in it.

collinsmapleman2012

03-28-2011, 08:41 PM

if you have a lot of sap (like i did tonight) then chuck it. i waited until a freeze up (for a few reasons) to boil and instead of the 6-7 gph i was getting i am now getting a bit over 10 gph. helps when you have 70 gals. lol

Ausable

03-28-2011, 08:46 PM

To Me - it depends on the year. This has been a cold one here and none of the sap ice is getting pitched if I'm gonna have enough syrup. Other years - when the sap is really coming at me fast like in 09 - I pitch it. This year 1% sap ice or liquid is a keeper --- Gotta admit - liquid is a heck of a lot easier to work with ----- Mike

Revi

03-28-2011, 09:35 PM

We chuck the ice. We have had some discussion, but the only ice we can pitch is in the buckets, since the tubing all shows up liquid. We always check the sugar content and on Saturday we got the highest ever, over 5%, because we chucked the ice from the buckets. I think of it as Nature's RO.

supersapper

03-28-2011, 09:46 PM

as far as hydrometers go, will one for beer making work?

Rossell's Sugar Camp

03-28-2011, 09:53 PM

My friend used one and he said he had to do some mathematical conversions and stuff with tempurature. but yes it will. sugar content is brix and that is in percent so 66 is what you look for

RileySugarbush

03-28-2011, 10:20 PM

"Well here is a scientific explanation!

http://www.foodscience.uoguelph.ca/d...reeztheor.html "

--------------------------------------------------------------

:-|

So in two sentences or less what does this really mean???

Here is my take on it:

Slowly freezing a sugar solution will freeze water first, forcing a higher concentration of sugar into the remaining liquid.

Higher concentrations of sugar further lower the freezing point of the remaining liquid.

Freezing too fast and this doesn't happen as efficiently.

Sorry, three sentences!

70 Buick

03-28-2011, 11:21 PM

RileySugarbush

03-29-2011, 12:51 AM

Dead link error 404 for me

The link got screwed up by being quoted...

Try this:

http://www.foodscience.uoguelph.ca/dairyedu/freeztheor.html

maple6275

03-29-2011, 07:18 AM

Yeah, I'm an ice-chucking back-yarder. My rig's slow enough that I'm willing to lose the 1% ice in exchange for cutting hours off my boil.

On a related note, you can use this same freezing trick to make the world's best apple cider! Just throw a gallon in the freezer and let it freeze partially, more or less depending on how you like it. Then pour out a glass of the sweetest cider you've ever had!

PerryW

03-29-2011, 07:44 AM

I filter all my sap as it goes into my gathering tank. I also filter the sap when it is transferred into my sugarhouse holding tank. Personally, I can't see any easy to deal with the ice besides putting a separate box in the back of my truck and filling it and emptying it by hand.

soooo, i chuck it, usually like a Frisbee.

Ausable

03-29-2011, 08:41 AM

as far as hydrometers go, will one for beer making work?

You serious? If You are - it is ok to check the sugar content in your sap - beer or wine. But - will need a syrup makers hydrometer for maple syrup and they work great..... Mike

smokeyamber

03-29-2011, 09:57 AM

The research paper helped a bit, great discussion here.:) I did some chucking last night when I boiled. It was the thin ice on the top of the barrel, it was nice and clear. Seems like it freezes much slower as mentioned, my guess is on buckets on trees with a thin layer it too froze slowly so chucking it is ok too... I will do that as well. With the temps in the single digits that froze the collection buckets solid I know they froze FAST:lol:, they will have to thaw and the bergs melted down.

Heck I even skimmed ice off the back pan that formed overnight. The almost syrup pan didn't freeze.

Boil went much nicer last night, warmer out ( 20's ) and I didn't freeze in the shack;).

Almost caught up... ready for another run. Hope the wood holds out !

supersapper

03-29-2011, 10:02 AM

sorry for the dumb question. i didn't know if there was a difference, thats why i asked.

steve J

03-29-2011, 10:29 AM

Smokey brace yourself as all hell is going to break loose tomorrow with them there trees running hard and looks like we should fireing the rigs for several days. I hope enough of mine has unthawed that I can start tonight otherwise I will go to the deer meeting in Montpelier tonight.

DrTimPerkins

03-29-2011, 11:27 AM

On a related note, you can use this same freezing trick to make the world's best apple cider! Just throw a gallon in the freezer and let it freeze partially, more or less depending on how you like it. Then pour out a glass of the sweetest cider you've ever had!

Or add in some brewer's yeast to the cider, let it work on the sugars for a while to produce hard cider (also called apple wine, several websites detail the procedure). You can then freeze it and pour off the liquid portion and you've got Apple Jack (concentrated hard cider) -- although technically this is not legal as the freezing process is considered "distilling", which you can't do without a license. Sweet and potent. Great stuff (so I've heard ;) ).

TP

Ausable

03-29-2011, 08:02 PM

When I was in the Navy - about 50 years ago (wow - I'm getting Old) A Chief told me a story about boring thru the ice into a keg of hard cider on his Grandfathers Farm and that it was one of the best alcohol drinks he ever had in his life. Until now - I've never heard of anyone else mention the possibility of doing this - Thanks Doc - and no - I'm not going to try it - getting too old for anymore experiments with alcohol..... LOL --- Mike

Wardner in Tewksbury

03-29-2011, 10:14 PM

I wanted to get a better feel for the sap ice and sap sugar content/controversy.

I partially froze about two ounces of 2.6 sap in the freezer section of my refrigerator. It was chilled to approximately 50/50 ice and liquid sap. I poured off the liquid and measured it at 5.7. Melted slushy ice came in at 1.6. Melted solid ice came in at 0.7. All measured samples were allowed to reach room temperature in the test well of my Hanna digital refractometer. Repeated activation of the test button did not change the values.

I see no reason why I should save solid ice unless the weather forecast and my schedule indicate sap spoiling conditions.

KenWP

03-29-2011, 10:42 PM

I know a lady who makes 1000s of gallons of wine a year.She freezes it all and pours off the strong stuff and throws the rest away. Probbably why she's so bloody old.

DrTimPerkins

03-30-2011, 07:41 AM

I see no reason why I should save solid ice unless the weather forecast and my schedule indicate sap spoiling conditions.

Like many things, it depends upon your personal situation. If you have an RO, saving the ice means no loss of sugar. If anyone with an RO was passing 0.7 brix sap in the permeate, they'd be rather unhappy about it.

If you don't use RO, but have lots of evaporator capacity, saving the ice is also OK, as you don't lose any sugar that way.

If you have too many taps for your evaporator, or not enough time to boil, tossing the solid ice makes sense.

RileySugarbush

03-30-2011, 08:30 AM

[QUOTE=DrTimPerkins;147394 If anyone with an RO was passing 0.7 brix sap in the permeate, they'd be rather unhappy about it.

[/QUOTE]

Yes, they would be unhappy about it, but I bet they wouldn't save and boil it!

I agree. Depends on circumstances. For the small operator on a block arch it can be a tremendous deal

steve J

03-30-2011, 10:10 AM

Well I took about a dozen completely frozen buckets and dumped them into a collection barrel yesterday and if they unthaw and I get caught up I will boil them but I am heading back up there now and will boil right thru the weekend and I expect the trees to be gushing doubt that ice will ever get boiled

Wardner in Tewksbury

03-30-2011, 11:02 AM

If you don't use RO, but have lots of evaporator capacity, saving the ice is also OK, as you don't lose any sugar that way.

I'd certainly be willing to lose the 0.7 sugar ice. From an economic perspective, who can make money reducing that? That's like ice burning a hole in your pocket considering the time and fuel. You'd be better off buying good sap (2.5 to 3.5) to replace the wasted sugar, or, setting up a few more taps.

I tested more than twenty trees this year. My average has been over 3% until the last few days. Why chase diminishing returns?

It's like scrapping metal. Why go to the trouble and expense when prices are low? There will be better days.

Although, this is off topic, I don't see why people don't ream tap holes. It doesn't take much time and, as far as I can see, the results are spectacular and well worth the effort. Several test taps have gone from zero to 1.5 gallons per day. Of course it makes more sense if you are using buckets and each tree can be monitored. I'm not sure yet, but maybe two reamings may be necessary. It will depend on quality of sap. That increase of sap volume will certainly offset any "wasted" sugar/ice many times over.

Arnie

03-31-2011, 07:58 PM

We are in an area where there are times the sap freezes completely. How would you handle that, throwing out the ice seems to be throwing out the sugar content too. Should we wait until it's half thawed? Or something else.