Sterilize Check Values to Reuse?

[Hawk's Hill]

Hi Gang,
I know that the Leader check values are designed to be used once then toss. However, why couldn't you sterilize them and safely reuse? Options might include: (1) soak in sanitizer solution; (2) set out in the sunlight [the sun is afterall The Great Sanitizer]; (3) zap with some sort of microwave, blacklight, anti-mater ray :rolleyes:.

Thoughts?

[wiam]

I think you are missing the point of a piece of THROW AWAY plastic to get you more sap.

William

[brookledge]

you are not going to kill everything. Even though the plastic looks smooth under a microscope it is porus and bacteria will thrive.
I'm sure Dr. Perkins can elaborate.
Keith

[Wardner in Tewksbury]

Have you tried boiling a couple to see if the taps can take the heat? It may be that the thermoplastic has a much higher melt point than 212 Fahrenheit.

Look up "medical autoclave" to see how hospitals sterilize surgical tools and syringes. That process might be applicable to taps.

Also bear in mind that Legionaire's Disease is prevented by heating domestic hot water to 140 degrees. I think milk is pasteurized at 150. Some micro-organisms do not need the whole nine yards.

[3rdgen.maple]

There is about 100 threads on the cv's already discussing every thing you can you could possibly think of and then some. DO some searching on here and you will find the answer.

[markct]

for what its worth, jeff mason tells me he has excelent results with reusing his plastic adapters, not check valve just regular straight thru type. he said that after talking with a engineer who said that many plastics can be sterilized in the medical industry, he decided it should work for taps also. i believe he said he boils them in his finishing pan and then pours a bleach solution over them and of course rinses well.

[3rdgen.maple]

for what its worth, jeff mason tells me he has excelent results with reusing his plastic adapters, not check valve just regular straight thru type. he said that after talking with a engineer who said that many plastics can be sterilized in the medical industry, he decided it should work for taps also. i believe he said he boils them in his finishing pan and then pours a bleach solution over them and of course rinses well.

Yes but medical equipment is sterilized in an autoclave and I highly doubt any maple producer has one lying around the sugarshack to achieve complete sterilization. I am also trying to figure out why a producer would go and buy check valves to get an increased sap yeild to turn around and reuse them only to be back where they started before they bought them to begin with. Theres a reason they are disposable.

[markct]

yea i understand that, i think the comparison he pointed out was just that plastic can be sterilized to some degree. im still not sure what im gona do for next year, check valves or just straight thru adapters, the check valves sure are still running strong, but its buddy on my soft maples now so hard to decide if i get the effect of the check valve before the buds are out or not. i think they are worth it even so, and some years it may get a longer time before the buds are out, and the price difference is only about 70 bucks on my 500 taps so thats realy just an extra couple gallons of syrup it needs to get me, and i think they do

[Wardner in Tewksbury]

There's a reason they are disposable.

Sure, it promotes annual sales.

Don't think there is anything special about autoclaves. My father had one in his office but I was too young (6 years) to understand its operating principal. Probably not much different than a pressure cooker that every kitchen has.

[3rdgen.maple]

[QUOTE=Wardner in Tewksbury;146133]Sure, it promotes annual sales.QUOTE]

I do believe that mindset is all wrong. They were invented by a scientist who frequently visits this site and has explained a hundred times the reasons why they are disposable and why he invented them. They are a tool for a maple producer to increase their yeild of sap during a maple season. There effectiveness after one season is gone and not to mention they can be damaged after using them once. So does it being disposable keep sales going? Of course BUT if the return on the investment far exceeds the cost of the cv in one season and the level of production is gone when you reuse them can you tell me why you would not invest in new ones if it puts more money in your pocket? This whole topic reminds me of my late grandmother who would buy styrafoam plates and cups for a dinner and then clean them all and save them for later use. I asked her all the time why did you bother buying them if you planned on washing them instead of using regular dishes?
Also an autoclave is alot different than a pressure cooker. It involves more than just making steam. Air needs to be removed, pulsation needs to occur if it were that simple they wouldnt be 10's of thousands of dollars.

[Maplewalnut]

who said that many plastics can be sterilized in the medical industry,.

Speaking from over 20 years experience, plastic polymers are not reused in the medical field. Regardless of sterilization technique... heat, radiation, chemical, none can completely penetrate biofilm on plastic once it is set up. The fact of the matter is that all silastic and plastic based components in the pharma/medical industry are disposable.

[markct]

thats very interesting and make sense. i am just relaying what was said to me, and he seemed to be having good results with it, still not sure if i may try something simular or just toss them out, gota give it some thought both ways especialy with so many red maples that have a shorter season anyhow

[onthehill]

At the 2011 NY winter maple conference in Verona, Steve Childs asked how many were planning to reuse CV's. After shaming several to confess, he shared some research data that he and his Cornell team had conducted that showed that to save the $0.35 for a new CV it actually cost just over $5.00 in lost production! This was based on a trial comparing new and used CV's. I don't remember the "cleaning" method used on the used CV's. Bottom line...send them to the recycle bin.

[maple flats]

It is not worth the savings. Spend your thrift genius for other factors to improve the operation. Such as thinning the sugarbush, or over fire air, or a pre-heater, or cutting wood sooner and store it dryer, or any number of other proven or even new ideas but believe the research on 1 yr use on the CV's.

[Gary R]

I work for the largest sterilization company in the states (possibly the world). Every day I maintain sterilizers of all types in hospitals. Plastics are routinely sterilized. All the medical devices have been tested by the manufacture. This testing is submitted (510K) to the FDA. If it can be proven to be sterilized, it is labeled so.

The pressure cooker could work if the check valves can take the heat. Precleaning is essential. All table top sterilizers (dental, tattoo) have a reservoir of water in the chamber. This is heated to boiling with electric elements. Once temperature is reached, timing begins. Usually for 20 minutes. Gravity and liquid steam sterlization is the same. Air is removed by thermostatic traps. On a pressure cooker you keep the weight off the top port for a period of time. This removes the air. Prevacuum sterilization has pulses to remove air faster and out of wrapped items.

I do believe though that trying to reuse the taps is a waste of time and money for almost everybody.

I also maintain the sterilizers in the Microbiology departments at local universities. I'm thinking of having one of them do a test for me. Give them new; cleaned only; cleaned and sterilized check valves just prior to next season. Swab and culture the samples. We'll see how much bacteria is left. It won't be a scientific study, but it could give us independent insight.

[maple maniac65]

The problem is sugarmakers are like farmers they hate to throw anything out.

[DrTimPerkins]

As a few have said already....this has been covered multiple times.

What most are talking about here is santitizing spouts...NOT sterilizing them. I really dislike hearing the term "sterile" when applied to maple spouts. That condition is extremely difficult to achieve.

There are two things going on when you use the CV adapter. One is the "new plastic" effect. This will get you about 10-15% increase. The second is the "CV" effect. This results in an additional 10-50%+ increase (depending upon a lot of factors). You get the first effect by using ANY new plastic spout. You get both effects (additive) if you use a CV spout adapter.

Different sanitizing (cleaning) approaches will get spouts cleaner. Most will not totally irradicate all microorganisms. Cleaning of spouts will improve sap production, slightly, but WILL NOT result in production that comes close to that of new plastic. We've shown that....Cornell has shown that...researchers 50 yrs ago showed that. You can argue all you want about it, but our results are fairly solid and have been replicated by other groups. All the maple companies subscribe to this....which is why they all push replaceable spouts for best sap production.

The CV spout adapter is not your typical spout. It is a precision piece of equipment. Although you may sanitize it to some degree in various ways, if you end up with a piece of dead biofilm on the ball or on the mating ring, the ball may not seat properly, could leak, and thus allow backflow into the taphole to occur, thereby negating the design advantage.

It has been shown by both UVM PMRC and Cornell University (Steve Childs) that using a new plastic spout is economically advantageous, often by a large amount, in every year that the work has been done. So in my mind the choice is to either use a new piece of plastic and get a lot more sap or reuse spouts and get far less sap. Your choice. But don't complain about the CV not working if you reuse them....that is not the way they were designed.

[DrTimPerkins]

The problem is sugarmakers are like farmers they hate to throw anything out.

Yes, but when the choice is to:

A) keep reusing the old spouts and produce far less sap,
B) try to clean the old spouts and produce less sap, or
C) buy new spouts and produce far more sap

...then it should be pretty clear from an economic standpoint.

[driske]

Thank you Dr Tim.
Wisconsin production was off 47% last spring. We used check valve adapters and posted our second largest crop ever.
There's a 55 gallon drum of old CV's setting in our pole shed. Free to a good home. :lol:

[TF Maple]

Thank you Dr Tim.
Wisconsin production was off 47% last spring. We used check valve adapters and posted our second largest crop ever.
There's a 55 gallon drum of old CV's setting in our pole shed. Free to a good home. :lol:

So, is there a recycling program, or is someone going to start one?

[Gary R]

I'll apply a sterile process to someone's CV's. I can't guarantee sterility at time of delivery though. Too hard to control and maintain. .50 per CV, you pay all shipping and handling:lol:

Thanks Doc, I'm sure these questions will never go away.

[driske]

TF,
That's a really good question, and one I haven't taken time to pursue an answer to at this point. But I will. Off to the transfer station at our Town Hall. We'll see what the tender thinks and I'll get back to you.
Here's the scoup from one of western Marathon co's rural townships.
Plastics up to #7 are being accepted. He would put the used CV's in with co-mingled plastics. Also old tubing would be taken, but he would like to see that cut into shorter pieces.(The tender and his son have around 1100 taps on vac. tubing so they are familiar with the materials.)
I guess that gets things back in the product stream and is preferable to landfilling it.

[Maplewalnut]

I work for the largest sterilization company in the states (possibly the world). Every day I maintain sterilizers of all types in hospitals. Plastics are routinely sterilized. All the medical devices have been tested by the manufacture. This testing is submitted (510K) to the FDA. If it can be proven to be sterilized, it is labeled so.

.

Gary- I know your company and we have a few of your autoclaves in use now. I acknowledge that plastic can be sterilized initially, I was talking about re-use and after biofilm has been grown up. In any case I hate to throw them away also but the savings just isnt worth it when you look at the numbers.

[ejmaple]

a side note regarding cv's on gravity. i tapped my gravity bush with half cv's and half tree savers, after pulling taps the other day you could realy tell the differance. the holes with cv's were still pouring and had a small amount of that white film on the inside, the tree savers were only dripping and inside the holes there was a white film.