Maple syrup as a full time business, is it possible???

[Starting Small]

I have a couple of quick questions as I am considering the remote possiblility of starting a sugaring business in the next 5-10 years.

1. Is it actually possible to support a family on maple syrup or would a second stream of income be needed.
2. What would the costs be to start, assuming a building is already in place. What type of an initial investment would be reasonable to grow from a hobby to a business and have it be self sustaining?
3. Were your goals when you first started to jump into a business or did it evolve into one?

I cannot seem to find any reputable information anywhere about starting it as a business, just as a hobby. I appreciate your time, again I am probably 5-10 years away since my wife is pregnant and my daughter is 1 1/2 years old, if this even happens at all! Thank you again for any advice you could provide me, take care,
-Dave

[BryanEx]

Not sure if you've already seen it but this thread may be of interest;

http://www.mapletrader.com/community/showthread.php?t=7917

- Bryan

[markct]

i know of one producer who has maybe 5000 taps, and does it fulltime, has made a great market by advertising in many tourist info things and such and selling there syrup in many stores, but the amount of syrup they sell is more than a 5000 tap operation can make so its not so much making syrup as it is buying it bulk and marketing succesfully. and even then its still an income that needs to be supplemented with something else, ie retirement pension or other farm products etc. its doable but not an easy thing at all. i dont think i would even consider going fulltime at it till i am old and retired!

[Revi]

We know some full timers. They have around 40,000 taps and they sell most of it retail. Others we know have over 100,000 taps and they sell their products all over the place. There is a lot to it. I would say that selling retail is a good way to go. They sell their products at a lot of places on the coast of Maine, where there are lots of tourists in the summer. That helps a lot. They are both certified organic which brings a higher price also. I would say that it's a hard way to make a full time living, but it can be done. A good way to go is to get one of the big leases off the Golden Road up near St. Aurelie, Maine (and Quebec). They run from 65,000 to 100,000 taps and are just on the other side of the border.

[james ferguson]

i have spent about 200000 thousand investing in lines tanks ros evaporator vacuoms dumping staions stainless steel drums canners filter presses spar pans and list goes on i have 6000 taps and make about 1500 gallons syrup on good year have two full time guys when sap starts runing a load of sap is brought in every 45 min ro going boiling drumming we start at 600am and walk in house1000 pm you all most kill your self in 3 months time if you sell bulk base price per gallon is 30.00 2.75 x11 lb that wont make living if you use oil it will take about 800 gall x 3.50 2 men labor12000.00 elct 1400.00 and the list gose on and on we went from 1500 taps ten years ago to todays taps6000 like to get to 12000 that should give use about 38000 profit after all our cost if sold at 50.00 per gall average it is alot of workand long days oya walk all lines at least 4 times during season air leaks ie squrrie coydogs wind damage ice damage below o blowen lines and i could keep on going hope this dont scare you you should know all up front this is not get rich quik take long time and our lines get riped out after 12 yrs and replace:rolleyes:

[michiganfarmer2]

I think if yuor land was paid off, you lived frugally, didnt want to buy health insurance, you had a few thousand taps in your woods, your woods all sloaped downhill to the sap house so you didnt need to spend a lot on gas to haul or pump sap, and could reatail most of the syrup...

Yeah. I think so.

[adk1]

how about starting out small and saying "I jsut want to make enough to take a yearly vacation"

[nas]

how about starting out small and saying "I jsut want to make enough to take a yearly vacation"

Being in the sugar shanty is my yearly vacation:D

Nick

[PapaSmiff]

This year, I actually developed a business plan that projects my growth over the next three to five years to 500 taps. I'm hoping, if I can spread out my capital investment and equipment costs, that within 5 years I'll make enough each year for a good vacation each year. At least that's what I told my wife.

Year One (2012): My plan is to go from my Turkey Fryer to a Block Arch and Steam Pans next year - 50 taps. Selling mostly from my local shack.
Year Two: A home built 2x6 evaporator - still using steam pans - 100 taps. Try to find some local stores to carry my syrup and candy.
Year Three: Put some real pans on the evaporator - 200 taps. Selling retail, focus primarily on high-margin items like candy and small containers, sell some bulk, sell some sap, sell some retail.
Year Four: Invest in an inexpensive or used RO system - 300 to 400 taps
Year Five: 500 taps. Optimizing my 2x6 and RO system to it's maximum efficiency. Selling retail, focus primarily on high-margin items like candy and small containers, sell some bulk, sell some sap, sell some retail.
Into the future: Get my grandkids more involved, maximize profits on 500 taps, build a good supplement to my retirement income.

If this works, I'll be very, very, happy. Anyone have a crystal ball?

[upsmapleman]

Does your wife have a REALLY GOOD JOB with benifits? Then maybe

[gmcooper]

I think you can do it as long as the wife has a big enough trust fund!

[adk1]

This year, I actually developed a business plan that projects my growth over the next three to five years to 500 taps. I'm hoping, if I can spread out my capital investment and equipment costs, that within 5 years I'll make enough each year for a good vacation each year. At least that's what I told my wife.

Year One (2012): My plan is to go from my Turkey Fryer to a Block Arch and Steam Pans next year - 50 taps. Selling mostly from my local shack.
Year Two: A home built 2x6 evaporator - still using steam pans - 100 taps. Try to find some local stores to carry my syrup and candy.
Year Three: Put some real pans on the evaporator - 200 taps. Selling retail, focus primarily on high-margin items like candy and small containers, sell some bulk, sell some sap, sell some retail.
Year Four: Invest in an inexpensive or used RO system - 300 to 400 taps
Year Five: 500 taps. Optimizing my 2x6 and RO system to it's maximum efficiency. Selling retail, focus primarily on high-margin items like candy and small containers, sell some bulk, sell some sap, sell some retail.
Into the future: Get my grandkids more involved, maximize profits on 500 taps, build a good supplement to my retirement income.

If this works, I'll be very, very, happy. Anyone have a crystal ball?



how are you gonna sell bulk when your only talking about 125 gallons of syrup max? I watched a big producer the other day where his automatic draw off drew 7.5 gallons in one rip..My jaw hit the ground..it was neat..he had this tall pipe looking thing that it drew off into..to it at the bottom was connected a clear hose which went straight to his very large filter press..every once in awhile he would turn o nthe press and the syrup in the large pipe went down..the press hosed into a 40 gallon SS drum. what an operation

[PapaSmiff]

There are a couple producers nearby that buy sap and syrup. If I can't sell it all through the higher-margin outlets, bulk will be a last resort. I don't think I'll be shipping anything to Bascoms.

But who knows . . . . maybe my grandkids will really get interested, and I'll be able to expand beyond my planned 500 taps. Let's hope.

[Revi]

You won't have to worry about bulk syrup at that scale. We sell all of ours retail, and we have around 300 taps. This season has been intense. We have boiled every night for the past two weeks. It's been fun. For some reason I love this stuff. I wouldn't count on it being a big money maker, however. It doesn't seem to pay much when all is said and done. Some people have horses, some have snowmobiles. We have the maple habit. At least we get some syrup out of it!

[Squaredeal]

I do it, but I am used to living on 50 cents an hour.

[Dill]

My take on my farming is yea it could be full time but then it wouldn't be as fun. Plus there aren't many hobbies that are tax deductible.
The syrup itself will never be the only source of farm income for me but it fills an empty part of the year.

[forester1]

What if you have a bad year? For me this was my retirement job. I saved my money and paid cash for all equipment over the years. I do about 1000 taps on vacuum which seems to be about all I can handle alone on a 4'x12' evaporator. I have a gas generator to run vacuum and no RO. My sugarbush is too remote to make real money. It's a nice supplement to my pension and retirement savings but I doubt I could make it on syrup alone.

[Mark]

I do but had 300 acres of trees and $300,000 to buy equipment. The key is not to owe any money.

[sapman]

That's what the business experts will say, don't carry debt, or very little. Wish I could say I have adhered to that motto!

[BryanEx]

The syrup itself will never be the only source of farm income for me but it fills an empty part of the year.

That's perfectly said. Maple starts at a time of year when you are itching to get out of the house but it's too early for yard work. By the time the season ends your are sick of doing it anyway.

- Bryan

[danno]

This year, I actually developed a business plan that projects my growth over the next three to five years to 500 taps. I'm hoping, if I can spread out my capital investment and equipment costs, that within 5 years I'll make enough each year for a good vacation each year. At least that's what I told my wife.

Year One (2012): My plan is to go from my Turkey Fryer to a Block Arch and Steam Pans next year - 50 taps. Selling mostly from my local shack.
Year Two: A home built 2x6 evaporator - still using steam pans - 100 taps. Try to find some local stores to carry my syrup and candy.
Year Three: Put some real pans on the evaporator - 200 taps. Selling retail, focus primarily on high-margin items like candy and small containers, sell some bulk, sell some sap, sell some retail.
Year Four: Invest in an inexpensive or used RO system - 300 to 400 taps
Year Five: 500 taps. Optimizing my 2x6 and RO system to it's maximum efficiency. Selling retail, focus primarily on high-margin items like candy and small containers, sell some bulk, sell some sap, sell some retail.
Into the future: Get my grandkids more involved, maximize profits on 500 taps, build a good supplement to my retirement income.

If this works, I'll be very, very, happy. Anyone have a crystal ball?



Hey, I'm living your business plan. That was just about my progression:), just a bigger evap. I only make 100-200 gallons a year and sell half bulk. The bulk is usually a nice $1000-$2000 payday. I usually boil until the sap stops, so I make a bit of commercial and bulk is the best market for commercial. Also, frankly, retail selling is my least favorite part of sugaring. I like the production side best.

[markct]

"I usually boil until the sap stops, so I make a bit of commercial and bulk is the best market for commercial."

isnt that the only market for commercial? i cant think of any use for it otherwise and have never seen it for sale in retail size containers.

[PATheron]

Guys- For what its worth Ill share my experiances with my sugar operation. When I started four years ago I dreamed of quitting my town job and making syrup for a living. Ive basically been thinking that way till this year. Ive devoted every day to that end for four years. I wanted to have a super high efficiency operation to produce bulk syrup. I have never had any interest in selling one jug retail. I started out with new equipment and soon went to buying good quality used equipment. That is what I have now mostly and my little sugar shack packs a big punch for what I have in stuff. I went through it the other night and added up what it would cost to buy the stuff I have new as apposed to how I bought it used and came up with 70000 in about a couple minutes. I have made good averages for our area especially since I have started. Id have to look up exact numbers but Im guessing as of last year I think I had spent around a 100000 dollars and had sold almost exactly that in syrup. This last year I spent a bunch more. I have taken no money from the business becouse I didnt need it with my town job. Next year will be five years and it will be the first year I may come out ahead. Ive worked pretty darn hard to get to this point and had the benefit of not needing to take money from the business to get to this point too. Im probly going to be able to customarily make 1500 to 2000 gallons a year of bulk syrup. Also my dad is nice enough to help me and works real hard too. Without his help I definitely couldnt do it. So take the bulk value of 1500 or 2000 gallons of syrup and subtract all the stuff you need, maybe tap rent depending on your situation, If you dont have a retired dad able to help you out you might have to hire some help. Take all that in to consideration and see if you think it would generate enough money for you to live on. It might, it would be a bit meager. Now if you stayed home all year you could probly do more volume or sell a bunch of jugs and that would help a lot. Ive decided Im going to keep going to my town job. Im not all bummed out about it its just the smartest thing for me. Its easy work compared to the syrup, it pays good, and its a for sure paycheck. Hope this helps. The thing I really like about my setup though is I run without worry about jobs and such. I ever lose my job no problem. Itll be a happy ride home. I may not make as much but Ill have a real good time and I wont go hungry. Theron

[PapaSmiff]

I'm hoping to minimize, or eliminate, the need for selling bulk. I actually like the Retail Selling part (from the shack). I like meeting and talking to people. I also like the margins. :) My oldest grandson (10-years old) will talk, and talk, and talk your head off. He's a born salesperson. And people like to buy from kids. They feel they are contributing to his agricultural and economic education. He gets a commission on everything he sells (or I sell).

I figure if I sell mostly, or exclusively retail, the margins will be good enough so that I don't need to have 5000 taps and paid labor. Perhaps I'm being overly optimistic about my future energy levels, but I think I can (mostly) handle 500 taps by myself - especially if I can use tubing. With forced air into the evaporator and an RO (hopefully), I should be able get by with reasonable boil times and operational costs.

Of course my entire business plan assumes that I'll be able to find the trees for 500 taps. I'll be going door-to-door to every land owner in the county for a few years. I'm also assuming that I'll have enough yearly traffic to my shack to support the sales. I'd like to avoid Internet sales, if possible.

Anyway, that's my story and I'm sticking to it.

[PATheron]

Papa Smiff- I agree with you on the retail thing. You can have half the investment and make half the syrup and make the same money. I just dont like dealing with it. Its a great way to do it though if you have the time. Way better money. Theron

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

I think if yuor land was paid off, you lived frugally, didnt want to buy health insurance, you had a few thousand taps in your woods, your woods all sloaped downhill to the sap house so you didnt need to spend a lot on gas to haul or pump sap, and could reatail most of the syrup...

Yeah. I think so.

Guy down here I know owns a small wrecker service and is 55 and didn't have health insurance and had a heart attack and now has $ 300,000 in medical bills. Take a lot of syrup to pay that much in medical bills besides all the other issues he will deal with the rest of his life.

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

With all the new taps being added every year and technology, we could easily see syrup prices of $ 1.50 @ pound or less within 3 to 5 years and then many of the people that are making syrup full time then are sucking air or going bankrupt.

[PATheron]

I think it would probly be more feasable to make a full time living off maple if you sold it retail. You could still do a lot of volume if you were home all year but youd have to spend the off season selling it in the jugs. Then if there is a lot of bulk syrup it wouldnt really affect you that bad. I think living off bulk syrup would be a challanging gig. I know you can do it but you better not miss a trick and you better have a bunch of start up money some how. Thats just how it looks to me. I want to do it as much as anybody and Im not quitting my town job after a taste of what it takes. Theron

[sfsshadow]

We are almost at the point of making a living from maple. Between my wife, myself, and one hired hand, we can comfortly produce around 1000 gals. We try to push higher profit items, like candy, cream, nuts and smaller container sizes. I hate to see gallons go out the door ($52), but much rather 4 qts ($80). Candy and cream both bring back over $100 gal. Even selling wholesale to stores brings in more than a retail gallon (smaller container sizes). The only thing we bulk is our c grade, and usually swap it for equipment. We also open our sugarhouse in December. Sales are real good around christmas.

[Bucket Head]

Someday I would like to make maple my full-time occupation. It will at least be a large part of my income in years to come even if it is'nt a "full-time" thing. I'll keep progressing like I have, like most of you here have over the years, and we'll see what happens. I have a long ways to go, but I have come a long way from where I started in the last few years. Most of us grow a little bit each year and plan carefully for the future. However, I've seen many folks recently dive head first into sugaring, with deep pockets but not a lot of experience. Like Theron said, "a lot of start-up money" was spent- either their own money or the bank's money, I don't know. Pretty much an instant full-time sugaring business.

If you have the personal capitol for that, great. But I'm not sure if a big payment book is the way to go. You need to produce and sell an incredible amount of product to pay for the "new" business and have money to cover living expenses too.

Steve

[Kev]

Someday I would like to make maple my full-time occupation. It will at least be a large part of my income in years to come even if it is'nt a "full-time" thing. I'll keep progressing like I have, like most of you here have over the years, and we'll see what happens. I have a long ways to go, but I have come a long way from where I started in the last few years. Most of us grow a little bit each year and plan carefully for the future. However, I've seen many folks recently dive head first into sugaring, with deep pockets but not a lot of experience. Like Theron said, "a lot of start-up money" was spent- either their own money or the bank's money, I don't know. Pretty much an instant full-time sugaring business.


Steve
and that is true in any bussiness venture. those with the funds to invest without hurting their ability to survive in the interm are much more likely to still be in bussiness by the time they can turn actuall profits.
starting out on shoestring is hard enough without a large debit to "service"
it makes more sense to start small and grow as you can than borrow to the hilt.
most people realize you can not borrow your way out of debit, why can the politcos not get it through their heads?( sorry soapboxing again)

[PATheron]

The way it has seemed to work for me is Ill borrow a bit of money through out the year and then mostly pay it all back when I sell my syrup and Im close to even up again or even up. Then I borrow some again do a bunch of work make my syrup and sell it and then Im close to even up again. Thats how its worked about the whole way along. Then Ive tried to get the best deal on things as I go to like all the used equipment. It still has added up to quite a bit of money though. I think in the end it will be worth it for me becouse if I pay my stuff off and stop expanding and then be real efficient and productive I will have a nice side income that may put my kids through college? Be a back up for me for full time work if Im ever out of work? That kind of thing. I dont think going head over heals in debt would work selling bulk syrup. The real money is in the retail. Im just not dealing with the people. Theron

[michiganfarmer2]

The way it has seemed to work for me is Ill borrow a bit of money through out the year and then mostly pay it all back when I sell my syrup and Im close to even up again or even up. Then I borrow some again do a bunch of work make my syrup and sell it and then Im close to even up again. Thats how its worked about the whole way along. Then Ive tried to get the best deal on things as I go to like all the used equipment. It still has added up to quite a bit of money though. I think in the end it will be worth it for me becouse if I pay my stuff off and stop expanding and then be real efficient and productive I will have a nice side income that may put my kids through college? Be a back up for me for full time work if Im ever out of work? That kind of thing. I dont think going head over heals in debt would work selling bulk syrup. The real money is in the retail. Im just not dealing with the people. Theron
I hear that. All of it. My thgouhts exactly

[Thad Blaisdell]

The way it has seemed to work for me is Ill borrow a bit of money through out the year and then mostly pay it all back when I sell my syrup and Im close to even up again or even up. Then I borrow some again do a bunch of work make my syrup and sell it and then Im close to even up again. Thats how its worked about the whole way along. Then Ive tried to get the best deal on things as I go to like all the used equipment. It still has added up to quite a bit of money though. I think in the end it will be worth it for me becouse if I pay my stuff off and stop expanding and then be real efficient and productive I will have a nice side income that may put my kids through college? Be a back up for me for full time work if Im ever out of work? That kind of thing. I dont think going head over heals in debt would work selling bulk syrup. The real money is in the retail. Im just not dealing with the people. Theron


Theron, How many years have you been seriously doing this? Now look at the amount of syrup you made this year compared to years past. Without the upgrades would any of that been possible?

Any business needs reinvestment. Especially a new business. I will make enough money in two years to live on year round. The key is how many taps you put out. 5000 is the ultimate low end of taps in my opinion. That is just selling some retail and the rest wholesale. Now of course that is give or take. At 5000 taps you should be able to make 2000-2500 gallons of syrup. That is a bare bones minimum of $60,000. But should easily be turned into $75,000 with a little retail going. At 10000 taps it is quite easy to make it into a living. With both scenario's it requires most of the original machinery to be paid off. But with 10000 you are able to make substantial upgrades annually, both to help save time and to help make more syrup.

[Sugarmaker]

Interesting thread! I think it would be a challange to live off syrup. I believe its just like farming. You have to be big to make a living at it, or rich to support it, or work your but off and be veruy lucky and smart.
I will not have 10,000 taps, I probably will never have 1000 taps. I try to work with in my means as best possible.
I agree that this new maple equipment can be quite pricey. I try to build or buy good used and make do.
Since I am within 5 years of retirement I look at making syrup as a small portion of retirement income assuming my health is good.
Love making it, still like to cut wood, like to meet folks, interested in maximizing the profits per gallon by making value added.
I still put too much time into it. But also continually looks for small ways to improve our operation.
Regards,
Chris

[Brian Ryther]

I started a thread a few months ago with the question of how many taps does it take to make a living. I know now that that was the wrong question. There are a few factors that are way more important than how many taps. The two factors are how much syrup and what percentage is sold retail. If you wholesale your entire crop then yes 10,000 is a good number. if you retail your entire crop then 4,000 is a equil number. Or is it. 10,000 taps requires much more processing eqiuiptment and time and yearly expenses (cv's, filter aid, oil, power,,etc ..) so maybe 3,000 is closer to the retail equilivent of 10,000. For me it is important to make as much syrup per tap as possable and retail, value added, as much as possable. With this formula I feel that is it a reality to make a decent living making maple syrup with as few as 3,000 taps, if done right.

[3rdgen.maple]

I started a thread a few months ago with the question of how many taps does it take to make a living. I know now that that was the wrong question. There are a few factors that are way more important than how many taps. The two factors are how much syrup and what percentage is sold retail. If you wholesale your entire crop then yes 10,000 is a good number. if you retail your entire crop then 4,000 is a equil number. Or is it. 10,000 taps requires much more processing eqiuiptment and time and yearly expenses (cv's, filter aid, oil, power,,etc ..) so maybe 3,000 is closer to the retail equilivent of 10,000. For me it is important to make as much syrup per tap as possable and retail, value added, as much as possable. With this formula I feel that is it a reality to make a decent living making maple syrup with as few as 3,000 taps, if done right.

I just dont see a 3000 tap operation being able to make a living on it alone. If you get an average year and pull a quart a tap and can retail for an average on the high side of 60 bucks a gallon your looking at 45,000. Minus all the equipment expenses, containers, land taxes, electricity fuel oil or wood, fuel for collection, help etc, your not getting enough return to survive off it. Now if you have a banner year maybe but like 2 seasons ago alot of us did terrible so your in deep trouble. Its a agriculture business and relys on mother nature to fill you bank account with money. With the cost of living on the rise I just dont see a 3000 tap operation even getting close to making it alone. Now if your retired and have another source of income I say hell yeah it can be done.
I also see your at 2800 taps so are you ddoing it? If so I am proven wrong which this wouldnt be the first time or the last time that has happened.

[maple2]

we have around 4000 taps and make two thirds of our income from maple, mostly retail and value added products. neither my wife or i punch a timeclock,but we do work some long hours plowing snow or making triple batches of candy.BUT,we dont have a morgage and our kids (6) have all moved out of the house. every year we watch the numbers grow. yes,i think its possable to make a living from maple.ill let you know in 2 years when we hit 5000 taps

[forester1]

I talked to a guy with over 15,000 taps last year about this and he said at 30,000 taps the numbers begin to look "real interesting". At the same time he told me his wife thinks he's crazy. It's easy to get carried away with new equipment. I think the theme running through the comments here is to start small, stay clear of excessive debt, sell retail especially value added products, and grow your business until the point just before it's no fun anymore.

[Red-bellied Woodpecker]

Can one make a living of maple I would say yes but how much you need to make a living is another thing…..do you have kids/plan on having kids and how many. A person with no kids can get by on a lot less then someone with kids.

For me maple will make up a good part of my yearly income…to go along with what I make off of my honeybees. This year I will have 2000taps and hope to get up to around 3000taps in 5-6yr. One thing that I have found out is if your willing to load the truck up with syrup and hit the road for a few days and sell to smaller stores in towns out of the main syrup producing states the sky is the limit to how much you can sell.

[maple flats]

I attended a seminar session at the Verona Maple Conference earlier this month and Glen Goodrich said he has one advantage, He makes a living off maple, no "real job". Then one must consider, he has 30,000 or more taps, but that is only part of his income. He is an equipment dealer, does seminars, installs tubing systems, buys and sells bulk syrup, gets royalties from his inventions (steam Away and ?) and who knows what else. Maple might be his only income, but every day he makes money on maple. He is not just making and selling syrup and added value products.Likely the only ways to make a living on maple are to do like Glen or inherit a HUGE sum of money and make maple until it is all gone.
Good luck. Have fun and keep another source of income.

[Red-bellied Woodpecker]

One thing that I have leard from honey is that some yrs your above ave. and others your below and a big mistake people make is when they have a above year they spend that money on things they dont really need but get it because they have the money.....when they should put that money away for a year when you have below ave year so you have some money to dip into to get your self through the year. I would think the same goes to maple.

[Bucket Head]

Red,

I don't know how many taps it would take to make a living, but what you said about "loading up a truck" and taking syrup to folks is part of the equation. The trouble with selling it in your area, and its the same for all of us, is there are multiple outlets for it. When your in a syrup producing area, its taken for granted. But get the syrup to an area that does'nt normally have it..., then watch profits increase. Have you ever looked for syrup outside of the "syrup belt"? Ever tried to find it down south or out west? Its hard to find in those areas, and its priced accordingly because of its rarity.

Steve

[Brent]

I think the devil in the details was mentioned higher up in this thread. I don't know the details of ObamaCare but if you quit your day job you could be up the proverbial creeek without a boat or a paddle. Health insurance is a big issue for some of us. ( not me in Canada ) and working in the bush on 5000 or more taps is not exactly the same risk profile as a librarian. Health insurance is a big bite out of the income from 5000 taps.

Our 500 taps last year made enough to cover the equipment upgrades we did last year alone. All previous years the equipment ate a hole in the day job income. This year, year 6, will be the first year we make more than we spend ( uh um ..... if its a good year ).

We figure in 2 years we might consider that we make a buck and hour. Minimum wage would be spectacular.

In it for the money? Forget it. It's a semi-paid hobby/recreation.

[Greenwich Maple Man]

Sorry but I have to disagree with many of these posts. I know many sugarmakers that make a great living doing just sugaring. I myself am working in that direction.If you do the math and figure your cost you will see there is a very good profit to be made IF DONE RIGHT. I don't believe someone is going to make a living on 500 taps. You need to be up to date with production equipment and buy what you need not what you want. I feel there is a very strong career in sugaring.

[Bucket Head]

Your right Brent. Insurance and the overall cost of living would put quite a dent in the profits of a maple-only business, at least down here. However, there are a handfull of folks down here that have pulled it off. But they have thousands and thousands of taps, dabble in a few other maple related things, market their syrup and services throughout the country, etc., etc. The rest of us can only run as tight a ship as we can and through wise decisions and hard work, make a profit from our sugaring operations. But we can still dream big once in a while, lol!

Steve

[Red-bellied Woodpecker]

Bucket I will have 2,000 taps this year (will be up to 3000 in a few years) and if things go good will make around 500gal of syrup and I sell it for $50gal...I will only have $3500-$4000 put into it this year. Thats were I find it hard that guys say they cant make a dime even when I was at 100 taps I made a few hundred the first year. I must say that I'm lucky from the stand point that I dont count the gas I use to go down south and out west as I go down south every spring to get my bees and out west turkey hunting every year even if I wasnt making syrup. I still say one can make a living on maple but it is more likly to be able to make it a good % of your yearly income then make a living. Also like I said before if your a guy that is never going to have kids you can get by on a lot less then somone with kids.

[Mark]

I tap close to 20,00 taps on 300 acres and that is all I have done for the last 11 years. As always looking back I would have done it different. I would rather have a very nice 40 acres or a little more on a well travel road. I would go for marketing rather than production and it would be more for show. You could make a lot of syrup on 4000 taps and high vacuum. Buy bulk syrup if you run out.

[Greenwich Maple Man]

I believe one of the key pieces to being a profitable sugarmaker is vacuum and making your money in the woods. If you can make 1/2 gal. per tap you are doing a great job in your woods and won't need as many taps to meet your goals. That being said you will need fewer tanks, pumps, releasers etc. and less cash up front. So my question is how many guys out there are making 1/2 gal. per tap? Any tips? Is high vacuum a must?

[gmcooper]

There are a number of families making a living from maple syrup. I know a couple that did other things farming that kept them busy but it was the maple that paid the bills and bought the groceries for many years.

With that said currently there has been a lot of expansion in tap numbers and a lot of new and improved vacuum systems install over the last couple years that has been increasing production a bit faster than markets have grown. If that trend continues and we have a few more really good years bulk prices will certainly drop as they have some this year. How many want to make more syrup if you knew you might only get $2.00 lb or maybe less?

[Greenwich Maple Man]

There are a number of families making a living from maple syrup. I know a couple that did other things farming that kept them busy but it was the maple that paid the bills and bought the groceries for many years.

With that said currently there has been a lot of expansion in tap numbers and a lot of new and improved vacuum systems install over the last couple years that has been increasing production a bit faster than markets have grown. If that trend continues and we have a few more really good years bulk prices will certainly drop as they have some this year. How many want to make more syrup if you knew you might only get $2.00 lb or maybe less?

The sugaring industrie has 1% of the sweetner market. If the maple markets gained 1% there aren't enough trees in the world to cover it. It has concerned me in the past as to the markets getting flooded. However sugaring is a huge amount of work (as we all know) how many of todays new generation are going to want to be large producers?

[Thad Blaisdell]

You can make a pretty good living doing maple. I have stated before and will state again. In my estimation 5000 taps is the magic number to make a decent living. Doing this many with modern equipment will make you 2500 gallons. $30 bulk price gives you $75,000. Take out $25,000 for general expenses and upgrades every year. leaving 50k. I can live on that. Now you take that same amount and sell 1000 gallons retail and make an extra $10, thats 10k extra. 60k per year and you dont need to leave home. I can live with that.

[Starting Small]

Thad, I think that is well put. My question is how much would you need to spend for the equipment needed for 5000 taps? Also how much part time help (if any) would you need for this type of operation? I have no idea but appreciater your help/advice!

[wiam]

I believe one of the key pieces to being a profitable sugarmaker is vacuum and making your money in the woods. If you can make 1/2 gal. per tap you are doing a great job in your woods and won't need as many taps to meet your goals. That being said you will need fewer tanks, pumps, releasers etc. and less cash up front. So my question is how many guys out there are making 1/2 gal. per tap? Any tips? Is high vacuum a must?

For the last 3 years I have pulled over .4 gallons per tap out of my woods. That is running between 22-24". I will never say "you can't make money sugaring". It is a large part of my income.

[wiam]

Thad, I think that is well put. My question is how much would you need to spend for the equipment needed for 5000 taps? Also how much part time help (if any) would you need for this type of operation? I have no idea but appreciater your help/advice!

I can't help on cost, but I would want at least a 3x8(or 10) and a 600 gph ro. I have heard around $10 per tap for tubing. And Thad does 10,000 by himself.

[Thad Blaisdell]

For 5000 taps from scratch my estimated cost

$40,000 for pipeline installed by you. 65k if hired
$10,000 tanks
$10,000 vacuum and releaser
$ 7500 good used arch and pans
$20,000 1200 gallon ro minimum
$------- Sugarhouse. mine was $30000
$15,000 for all the other crap you need to get started, taps,fuel, snowshoes, drillbits, batteries, new boots, gloves, etc etc etc
$------- barrels you can borrow the first year if you get it set up with someone ahead of time. Buy some after that.
$ 3,000 10 inch filter press, I recommend getting a double 10 with diaghram pump. more money

So you are looking at a little over $150k to get started, break that into 5 years and its doable. Now add more taps the only number to really change is pipeline.

[spud]

I just set up my 5000 tap woods and it cost me $45,000 Keep in mind though that i am selling sap for the first few years. Everything i bought so far is brand new and my set up should get me .5+ GPT. When I bought my home in August it already had a sugarhouse ( 20x64) in very nice condition. Therefore I still need to buy a good used rig and RO Then I will buy a new filter press, barrels and a zillion other things before i can boil. I know that $30,000 more will get me everything i need to have a top notch set up. I could have done it all this year but we home school our 7 children and i just ran out of time. On a good year i should make $50,000 selling sap and if I was boiling it would be $75,000 at $30.00 a gallon bulk. I plan to show a small profit the first year. Only time will tell.

Spud

[ennismaple]

Most of the "large" producers that I know that make their living from maple don't just sell syrup. They sell maple equipment, have pancake houses, cut and sell wood, etc... If you're looking to get rich maple isn't the best choice. If you want to make a decent, honest living and aren't afraid of some hard work then maple is very rewarding - in more ways than just the balance in your bank account.

[sjdoyon]

For 5000 taps from scratch my estimated cost

$40,000 for pipeline installed by you. 65k if hired
$10,000 tanks
$10,000 vacuum and releaser
$ 7500 good used arch and pans
$20,000 1200 gallon ro minimum
$------- Sugarhouse. mine was $30000
$15,000 for all the other crap you need to get started, taps,fuel, snowshoes, drillbits, batteries, new boots, gloves, etc etc etc
$------- barrels you can borrow the first year if you get it set up with someone ahead of time. Buy some after that.
$ 3,000 10 inch filter press, I recommend getting a double 10 with diaghram pump. more money

So you are looking at a little over $150k to get started, break that into 5 years and its doable. Now add more taps the only number to really change is pipeline.

Thad,

You're math is pretty close for a start up. Only thing you left out is if you have to purchase the land. If you already have the land, there's no reason you can't make it with 4-5,000 taps, after four years all your expenses should be paid. I was able to cut down on the cost by building the sugarhouse for $10,000, used Stainless Steel tanks (pressure wash and just like new), install pipeline on our own, spent $10,000 on stuff, seems like there is always something needed. Majority of investment in the equipment and sugarbush.

With an efficient operation (5lbs per tap), you can do well on 5,000 taps. Of course the one variable is mother nature.

3x10 Inferno Arch
4,000+ Taps
7,5 HP Vacuum pump
Lapierre 600gph RO
3 SS 1500 gallon tanks
24x32 Sugarhouse

[sugaringman85]

For 5000 taps from scratch my estimated cost

$40,000 for pipeline installed by you. 65k if hired
$10,000 tanks
$10,000 vacuum and releaser
$ 7500 good used arch and pans
$20,000 1200 gallon ro minimum
$------- Sugarhouse. mine was $30000
$15,000 for all the other crap you need to get started, taps,fuel, snowshoes, drillbits, batteries, new boots, gloves, etc etc etc
$------- barrels you can borrow the first year if you get it set up with someone ahead of time. Buy some after that.
$ 3,000 10 inch filter press, I recommend getting a double 10 with diaghram pump. more money

So you are looking at a little over $150k to get started, break that into 5 years and its doable. Now add more taps the only number to really change is pipeline.


just curious what kind of system you were using for your tubing installation. based on information that i've gotten its about 20-23 bucks a tap for new high vac with wet/dry lines. if so your numbers would be a lot higher

[bowtie]

i was just browsing this thread and the numbers are big. it seems to me to get 5000 taps,at least where i am from you are going to have to have around 150 acres or so. i tap on 92 acres and i probably could not get 500 on it because of the lack of maple trees. when you factor in land $1000 an acre, taxes around $4000-$7000 yr, you could be talking about $300k to do it. then factor in gas,repairs,fuel for evap,electricity and all the other variables, if you made 2500 gallons a yr at $30 bulk,75k gross you are realistically talking about 8-10 yrs to break even. then you will probably have to replace half your equipment. also can one person do that much realistically for 10 yrs, if you have to hire someone on the books then you insurance, workers comp and salary that will lengthen your "break even" time. as a pro though you will have land and equipment for equity down the if you choose to liquidate. i run a small buisiness and until you actual see the costs involved it's hard to imagine how many there are. working for yourself can be rewarding but it can wear on you also, nobody to take your place if you are sick, or hurt. listen i would never tell someone not to try it on their own , i am working toward a plan where hopefully i will only have to work part-time outside my other interests but it will take at least 5-8 yrs if it even works, but sometimes the equation does not equal reality.
i want to take small steps foward instead of one big jump, the landing can be much softer.
i am just a beginner in the maple thing, so what do i know about it!!:lol:

[maple maniac65]

For 5000 taps from scratch my estimated cost

$40,000 for pipeline installed by you. 65k if hired
$10,000 tanks
$10,000 vacuum and releaser
$ 7500 good used arch and pans
$20,000 1200 gallon ro minimum
$------- Sugarhouse. mine was $30000
$15,000 for all the other crap you need to get started, taps,fuel, snowshoes, drillbits, batteries, new boots, gloves, etc etc etc
$------- barrels you can borrow the first year if you get it set up with someone ahead of time. Buy some after that.
$ 3,000 10 inch filter press, I recommend getting a double 10 with diaghram pump. more money

So you are looking at a little over $150k to get started, break that into 5 years and its doable. Now add more taps the only number to really change is pipeline.

Now take those numbers to your lending agency and watch them laugh when your business plan states that you only produce a product maybe 20 days out of the six week season. I would not give up my day job for maple just yet.

[lastwoodsman]

My goal is when I retire in a few years is just to suppllement #SS and retirement income.
Bottom line--I am not working at WAL-MART. Get your darn cart.

Woodsman

[Greenwich Maple Man]

Now take those numbers to your lending agency and watch them laugh when your business plan states that you only produce a product maybe 20 days out of the six week season. I would not give up my day job for maple just yet.

I guess the lending agency is'nt very bright then if they can't see the light though the trees. I have never gone to a lending agency but boy there are a dozen sugarmakers right in this area that all have loans. So I guess they don't think it is all that bad of a risk. Espcialy when the syrup check comes for couple hundred thousand each year. One good thing is the ones that don't want to go full time leave a very nice opening for the ones that do.

[spud]

Bowtie,

Your right in saying it would be hard to make a living in your area based on the land your talking about. As you know there is a difference between sugarwoods and a forest with scattered maples. My 5000+ taps is on 64 acres of my property giving me about 80 taps per acre. As for Maplemaniac 65 saying good luck on getting a loan. There are many people getting loans for sugaring in my area. I would rather set up a sugaring operation then a pizza joint in town and i feel my chances of making a profit would be much better. I only have $45,000 invested in my 5000 tap operation. I sell sap and should get around $50,000 on a good year. Even on a bad year I should get $25,000-$30,000 in return. If i spend another $30,000 and set up my sugarhouse for boiling then i could make $75,000 on a good year and around $37,500-$45,000 on a poor year. These prices are bulk prices. Once my sugarhouse is set up to boil I also can buy sap and make another $8.00-$10.00 per gallon after paying the seller 65% for his sap. I say theres money to be made in sugaring and the future looks bright for all those who do it.

Spud

[Maplewalnut]

Now take those numbers to your lending agency and watch them laugh when your business plan states that you only produce a product maybe 20 days out of the six week season. I would not give up my day job for maple just yet.

I for one am not quitting my day job, but if I had access to 5000-10000 taps I would seriously be thinking about it. In talking with key opinion leaders within the industry, lenders are on board with the maple trend to expand. Why not join?

[bowtie]

spud

i agree with you that there is a good living to made in maple production and who knows someday maybe with the right property i can try. right now with the economy in shambles and the banks or other lending institutions being stingy you would hard pressed to get a loan as a fresh start up business. you had better have a very business plan in hand when you walk in, even if you have outstanding credit and have had dealings in the past with the bank. if you have the cash in hand why would you want to work this hard to make more money, obviously you have either done very well for yourself or you did it the old-fashioned way, you inherited it.

[bowtie]

sorry i should have stated that the amount of a loan would 200k-300k and if you are already an established profitable syrup maker then your chances are much better than somebody that just started out in the trade.

[spud]

It is possible that banks in other parts of the country do not look at sugaring in the same way as banks in Vermont. I also understand that buying a 5000-10,000 tap sugar woods in Northern Vermont may be far more affordable then buying one in another state. This could put others at a huge disadvantage because their start up cost would be far more. Land in my area loaded down with maples can cost $2000-3000 per acre. Although i know of one very close to my home that has 8000 taps and is selling for $125,000 There are deals out there and you just have to keep looking for one. When i bought my home it was listed as a newer home with a 1000 tap sugar woods. The person who owned my house never sugared and was told by a friend that a tree had to be 30 inches to be tappable. When i walked the land for the first time there was a 64 acre portion of the property that was nothing but 10-16 inch sugar maples. Had the owner known this and listed the home with a 5000+ sugar woods the price would have been $100,000 more and i would not have been able to buy it. If a person wants to buy a sugar woods it's best to look for a wood lot for sale. Then go walk the wood lot and you may be surprised what you see. To a lot of people a maple tree is just another tree and they see no value in it at all. These people look at a potential sugar woods as nothing more then a wood lot. I hope all that dream of sugaring full time are able to make their dream come true.

Spud

[Starting Small]

Spud, the property for the $125,000 does that include equipment or just the land? I am not in bthe market, just curious

[spud]

The property is being sold with no equipment. You could set the woods up for $60,000 and sell sap to a dozen different people in town. You could make $80,000 in sap sales your first year if the season was good. Even a bad year should get you $50,000+ The land is in Richford Vermont

Spud

[Starting Small]

Is $30/gallon bulk the going rate now or is it closer to $40?

[spud]

The going rate for bulk is around $30.00 although i wish it was higher.

Spud

[larrboy]

The first question you have to ask yourself is how much money do I need to live?? Then go from there, I know couples making 80k-100k per year and they are in debt up to thier eyeballs and people making less and they have no debt and live comfortable. When you know how much you need to live on then start runnning numbers to see how much money you need to generate. Its like a football game, how many points does my offense need to score? First thing I need to figure out is how good is my defense.

[Starting Small]

For 5000 taps from scratch my estimated cost

$40,000 for pipeline installed by you. 65k if hired
$10,000 tanks
$10,000 vacuum and releaser
$ 7500 good used arch and pans
$20,000 1200 gallon ro minimum
$------- Sugarhouse. mine was $30000
$15,000 for all the other crap you need to get started, taps,fuel, snowshoes, drillbits, batteries, new boots, gloves, etc etc etc
$------- barrels you can borrow the first year if you get it set up with someone ahead of time. Buy some after that.
$ 3,000 10 inch filter press, I recommend getting a double 10 with diaghram pump. more money

So you are looking at a little over $150k to get started, break that into 5 years and its doable. Now add more taps the only number to really change is pipeline.

Besides the sugarhouse, can the other expenses be reduced by half or to 75% if you reduce the number of taps proportionally? Also, what is a reasonable amount of taps that can be run and have it be 100% retail without having a store, just website and word of mouth?

[Vermonner]

I was on a crew for the 1st time this year after wanting to try my hand at sugaring for a long time. They run 17,000 taps, admittedly a HUGE operation. For a rough idea of production and gross, they made 9,000 gallons of syrup in 2011, this year of course was far less. They have been at it for 23 years so they have grown and expanded. The owner's mantra and advice to me was "start small, get to love the work, never borrow more than you can afford to pay back tomorrow morning if you have to and there is a good living to be made in sugaring". He has been able to get all top of the line equipment, but he admitted he did a fair amount of "doing the best he could with what he had" in the early going. It's like I say with my small, one man furniture making business "noone starts at the top". Good luck to anyone thinking of taking the plunge

[spud]

The sugar maker that gave you this advise is a very wise person. Getting 9000 gallons of syrup out of 17,000 taps is outstanding. Learning to make due with what you have is great advise also. If someone wants to learn how to be a real sugar maker they need to talk to your friend. I hope to someday soon have the production per tap your friend has. In order to do that I would have to do everything right, and I'm not there yet (but I will be) if I keep reading Maple Research and taking advise from top notch sugar makers.

Spud

[Walling's Maple Syrup]

The sugar maker that gave you this advise is a very wise person. Getting 9000 gallons of syrup out of 17,000 taps is outstanding. Learning to make due with what you have is great advise also. If someone wants to learn how to be a real sugar maker they need to talk to your friend. I hope to someday soon have the production per tap your friend has. In order to do that I would have to do everything right, and I'm not there yet (but I will be) if I keep reading Maple Research and taking advise from top notch sugar makers.

SpudGood attitude and outlook toward sugaring Spud. It's good to admit that you don't know everything. There is always so much to learn in this business with all the new research and technology constantly being updated. I am always going to seminars and lectures to improve production and learn new ideas. Even after producing syrup for 20+ years, I learn many new things every year. Neil

[Starting Small]

I am wondering after rereading this thread and the last post being made in March of 2012, how many people who commented on how much they would expand in the years following the start of this thread (2011) actually expanded to the levels they predicted? Did anyone end up making the plunge into making syrup either full time or a larger percentage of their income?
-Dave

[sjdoyon]

I was planning on adding 3,000 taps this fall, at about 2,600 new taps to date, still installing drop lines and the bulk of mainlines with the most taps still not done. Thinking we're going to be closer to 4,500 - 5,000 new taps added when all done. Some warmer weather would help things.

[maplwrks]

I can't see adding a whole bunch of taps to get paid a lot less $$$ for my product. I have a real bad feeling that the maple bubble is about to pop, and we will be like dairy farmers, getting nothing for our product.

[spud]

The market for maple world wide is growing. It is possible that the bigger operations will hurt the smaller sugar maker's a bit. The big Maple boy's with their money might try to talk the government into a whole lot of costly regulations that will wipe out the little guy's. State inspections for all sugar maker's will be mandatory in the day's to come. As far as making Maple a full time business I think you need 8-10,000 taps minimum. Those numbers could go down if you had little to no debt.

Spud

[madmapler]

For what its worth, my wife is from the south and she just went down to visit family. While she was there she visited several shops and such to see what the syrup market was like down there. She spoke with a few owners who were very interested in selling our syrup. Most places dont even have it. They sell things such as pancake syrup or strawberry flavored syrup. One or two places sold sorghum syrup so I had her pick up some to try and it truly tastes disgusting compared to maple. Its not cheap either. I think maple is perhaps the best tasting sweetener out there. Its all natural for which there is a growing awareness/market. Nobody tries it and says they dont like it. She gave some to her family members and one of them texted her the other day to ask us to ship a case of quarts so they could give some to friends at christmas.Theres several valid reasons for optimism with this industry. I truly dont think maple has been marketed effectively. Its yet to be discovered in many parts of the world. A previous poster said in this thread that maple only makes up 1% of the sweetener market and if it were to go to 2% there would'nt be enough trees. I'd really like to know where that info came from but it does "seem" possible to me. Look at how much is sold locally and we're all swimming in the stuff.

[Starting Small]

Do you guys think that Maple Assoc. is making strides on a national level to promote and market maple? Most people I sell to seem to purchase it because it is a novelty, but I do not think that many of them will scramble when their quart runs out to run and buy more.
-Dave

[BreezyHill]

The market is what you make of it. If you do not get out and talk to prospective clients, wholes or retail you will not sell to them. It is like selling insurance, how many people are going to buy a policy if you never talk to them?
I have made in roads to sales that will increase my sales to where I will be buying syrup in bulk rather than selling 40% bottled and the rest in bulk. Our farm only has a capacity of 1200 taps. Our 2 year goal is to sell 1500 gallons, 3 year is for 2500 and 5 year is 5000 gallons all in glass.

In three years I will have an on staff artist with a degrees in bussiness and marketing, and an avid love for all aspects of farming and a graduate in Ag engeneering & Ag Business.

My business model has been run thru a SUNY College class and was ranked as superb.

I do think that a person can make a living doing maple, provided they are a good marketing and business person.

Selling at bulk rates of $30 rather than bottled at $125 plus is a dream killer.

Nobody plans to fail...they just fail to plan.

Ben

[madmapler]

Nobody plans to fail...they just fail to plan.

Ben

I like that.