Sugaring vs. Lumber

[markcasper]

In the past years that I have made syrup, there's been many challenges and along with everyone else I'm sure. One of them is the loss of maple trees to the logger, as well as the loss due to foresters scaring landowners into making them think that tapping is a sin.

I was wondering if anyone knows the REAL facts on this? I'm also wondering on how much value the average tree loses b/c of tapping it?

I have a specific example of where several years ago I was asked to cease tapping in my neighbors woods because a "forester told us that we won't get grade 1 logs and we need the trees to heal up."

I had another case where a different landowner (his woods could be viewed from my living room window) sold his hard maple. There was 20 acres and in talking to him the other day, I found out that he grossed $17,000. It would have been wonderful to tap there due to the location. How is my piddly amount of rent going to stack up against this lumber $$$. His 20 acres was last logged in 1991. The mill that bought the logs originally quoted him $7,000. Because of the quality though after they were finished, the sale reached $17000. Now tapping the woods prior to this would have lowered this amount of $$$ considerably, theres no denying, so what do we as sugar makers do???

[forester1]

That is always a dilema and I concur that most foresters are biased against tapping. Other foresters ask me if I plan to tap my veneer quality trees and they are shocked when I say yes. It is difficult to compare values but say a sixteen inch butt log veneer might be worth $200 but only $50 if tapped. So to compare you could guess 1/2 gallon of syrup per year for that tree you would need to make syrup for about 8 years to pay back the lost value by tapping. This is overly simplified since you are paying back other things like equipment, time etc. If you don't own the trees then it is different. I don't know how the landowner would pay back the lost $150 at $.30 a tap. Sugar maple is worth big money, about the most consistant high value hardwood where it occurs. Of course not all maple is veneer quality, but if it has the potential for clear wood in the butt log, then tapping will decrease the wood value.

[John Burton]

It has typically been my experiance that hard maple , espically ones of any size will usually only have 2 or 3 logs in them. after the butt log the grade drops off quite rapidly. however there were a few mills that were crying for "tapped maple" logs becauseit gives a desired effect when sawn into boards. watched a guy rake in huge dollars for some enormus sugar maple butts 500 plus feet per log rest of the tree was firewood. remember most people will see beauty in the woods to some it means to look at it others may want to use it ... tap or log. beauty is in the eye of the beholder.just my two cents.

[markcasper]

forester 1, I thought there was no way to tell if a log would grade veneer or not until it was on the landing??

In the former woods that I used to tap on my neighbors property - I watched them cut and skid logs, ones in which I left tap marks. When the buyer came there one day I was there snooping and he was stamping LOTS of them that were going for veneer.

Now I thought tap marks in them would disqualify them from the that class.

It seems fair to say that the price of syrup and the price for maple wood are getting further and further apart.

Mark

[mountainvan]

I watched a program a couple years back, think it was hands on history, and a sawmill in nh was selling tapped maple as "hammered wood". the staining in the wood caused by tapping made beautiful unique boards that were sold for a premium to funiture and cabinet makers. I saw some boards that ron frisbee had sawn from a tapped maple to show how the tree is injured and the stain of each tap was different like works of art.

[Dave Y]

Mark,
to answer your question; what are sugar makers to do? We will have to work harder at finding tappable trees. By that I mean we will have to find trees that are not veiwed as timber. In my mind not every tree will make quality lumber,but most maples will produce colletable sap. In my situtaion I tap boundry trees, yard trees, road side trees, and small groves. all which are short stumped, large crowned trees. Now granted I spend a lot longer collecting than you would if you were tapping a large bush. However, not owning a large number of trees myself this allows me to participate in this very enjoyable activity. I guess you have to ask yourself how much do I want to make, How bad do I want to do it, and how hard am I willing to work to accomplish my goals? When you answer those questions you will know what to do.

[forester1]

Mark, It's true you can't tell a veneer log until it is on the landing. Or more precisely, until the veneer buyer says he will buy it. Veneer grade changes all the time depending on how short the mill is with timber or how well veneer is selling. An experienced person can see a quality log in the tree most of the time however. Right now around here the best prices are for white wood in maple and have been for quite a while. Tapping stains the wood dark above and below the tap for 3-4 feet and a few inches wide. Eventually by tapping around the whole tree, it will all be stained. It's true specialty markets can be made for the wood. A shop near here has a good business making furniture out of pine lumber with blue stain which is a defect. I think Dave is right in that roadside and yard trees will always be available for a hard worker. Sawmills usually stay away from those trees for fear of nails. It's unfortunate that forest land is getting to be more out of reach for most people.

[markcasper]

Jerry, Good answers! How can you explain the fact that there was a veneer buyer buying maple logs and you could see the tapholes on the logs at the landing.? I witnessed this back in the spring of 1995 and just could not believe it. Most of the logs that had marks in them were on the outer cicumfrance. I started tapping in that particular woods in 1988, by 1998, my drill was idled in that woods. Mark

[forester1]

Mark, On some veneer they will patch the holes like you see in plywood at the lumberyard. Cut and paste the sheets as they come off the cutter. There are also two types of veneer, rotary and slicer, slicers bring the most money. Rotary logs are turned and the slicers are cut and sliced longitudinally. Sometimes they just butt off a piece of the log. Logs are bought individually and price varies widely. One birdseye log could go for over $1000. Even a log with tapholes may be worth something, just not as much as an equal quality untapped log. I'm not a log buyer but I work with a guy who did it for many years. Also the loggers I work with tell me a few things about it. It's a global market so prices, taste, and demand are always changing. Sugar maple logs however have had a good market for a very long time and that will probably continue due to it's wood characteristics.

[TR Hardwoods]

Here are some examples that you can take a look at. I just sold a 14' soft maple log that was 24" on the small end. I have tapped this tree for about 5 years, didn't see any evidence of previous tapping. 4 clear faces on the log with the exception of the tap holes on two faces(southern side of tree). This would have graded as a slicer veneer but due to the tap holes it only graded as a #1 common. It scaled out at 350bf and I was paid $210 for this log. Slicer veneer prices for soft maple are $1000/mbf in my area so if I would not of tapped this tree I would have yeilded $350. Now I harvested approx. 2.5gallons of syrup from this tree over the five years which provided me about $90gross. So overall lumber $ decrease was $140 and this was compensated by $90 in syrup money for a net decrease of $50 on this tree. This difference would be magnified if you were tapping in sugar maples as the lumber value is approx. 50% more. I no longer tap any of my nice lumber trees and have soley concentrated my tapping on the #2's and #3's. Oh, there are a few nice ones that I have previously tapped and continue to do so, afterall, how can you put a value on the enjoyment of maple syruping!

[Parker]

You are not going to be able to compeat with a log buyer monitarily if there is high grade rock maple involved, and the landowner just wants the money,,luckily for me in my area there is not a lot of high grade growing,,there are alot so sugartrees though,,, the other thing is that to many landowners there goals and objectives dont involve squeezing every penny out of the woodlot...many landowners priorities involve things like the way the woodlot looks,,wildlife, recreational oppertunites,,long term managment for timber, and here is an important point, befor you set up a tubing system you can harvest the very best veneere trees and thin the garbage out of the sugarwoods,, by doing this you improve the health and vigor of the residual stand, the sugartrees have room to grow,,you encourage regeneration (if thinned properly),,and the landowner gets some money, NOW you can hang you tubing wait 15 years and do it agine, and the landowner is getting tap rent money while the next crop of timber is comming along. Granted, by tapping the trees you do devaluate them,,but to some landowners the tradeoff is worthwhile...the sugarbush in Hill for example has a conservation easement on it so it will always be under mulit use management,,,,the thing I worry about the most around here is development,,not timber harvesting,, once there is a house there it is all over,,my 2cents

[markcasper]

Thank-you for all of the comments! And to Parker, you are so right about the development! Once there is a house and probably more of a problem, some of the people that live in these houses are not farmer friendly!!

One thing I forgot to mention, at least in Wisconsin, is a huge reduction in property taxes if you are using and tapping a woodlot for syrup. Most all woodland is classified as "recreational land" and is taxed to the max! Since maple sap production falls under agricultural, its taxed according to its use rather than land value.

There was some legislation going on to provide a tax break to woodland that was part of a farming operation, but I don't know how far it has gotten. There has been alot more woodland enrolled into the managed forest law since taxes have hit the ceiling, but even that program has accumulated alot more red tape than when my family enrolled ours in 2000.

I have not heard of any specialty markets for tapped maple logs like some of you have said. Mark

[hookhill]

This debate has hit home to us. We just finished setting up tubing in a neighbors woods. Theses trees have never been tapped and some of the trees are nice big veneer looking trees. The landowner does not care since he is pretty well off. We will just tap the nicer looking trees as low as possible. As far as veneer quality trees it has been my experience that many log buyers hang that out as a carrot to get trees into thier yard. In reality very few logs end up being graded as veneer quality.

[mountainvan]

I'm lucky that the woods I have permission to tap, the owners have all had bad experiences with their woods being logged. Mainly high grading and leaving their woods looking like a tornado came through. Until about 5 years ago there was a mill that made baseball bat blanks and went through a lot of ash. So they took the ash and left the maple!! Lucky me. I would agree that foresters are not always maple friendly. One of the landowners whos trees I tapped was going to contact the local forestry association, which I kind of talked him out of. He did make an appointment for them to walk his woods, they were a no show. If they ask me for help, I'm there the next day.

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

The way I see it is if I can tap the maple trees before they can timber, they won't likely timber the ones I tap. Most of mine are on family and they don't mind me tapping the trees or all the free syrup.

[Russell Lampron]

The trees that I tap are on land that has been in my family for over 100 years. One of the things that I was taught as I was taught how to identify trees when cutting wood was that you never cut a rock maple. My parents and grandparents were all sugarers so the rock maple was for tapping not for lumber or firewood.

Russ

[Fred Henderson]

Russ, don't you take out some hard maple that were bad and starting to decay. I had one that I could hang 5 bucks on it and it just would not produce sap. One spring as the leaves started to form and they got heavy with rain drops, half of it felt down so I cut the rest. I figured more nutrients for the healthy trees.

[Russell Lampron]

Fred,

There are rare instances where a rock maple will get cut. I have cut some small ones on my property to thin them out so that others can grow better. We have had a couple of the old big ones get blown down by the wind but for most part the wind takes them down we don't.

Russ

[maple flats]

I am behind on my plan, but we should all read and follow the sugarbush improvement ideas set out in the North American Maple sYrup Producers Manual. We will get more sap and higher sugar% if we do cut and thin correctly. As I understand it there is a 2-3 year lag between the improvement cut and the realization of MORE sugar but that is the time it takes the trees to react and take advantage of the sun you are giving their crowns. This IS easier to make the time to do if it is YOUR woods and YOU will reap the benifits now and in the future, now in fire wood and logs and in the future in both catagories again. I have marked my trees for thinning but will not get much of it done until after I get my new house built in about 2009 There is room for both timber and sugaring in most woodlots. We should get the education to know how to accomplish both. When we see a truly well shaped Sugar in the woods it SHOULD be directed towards saw logs and marginal trees should be managed for syrup production. A prime log is the butt log, must have good shape, no limbs ans no flaws for the highest value. It should not be opened up to the sun too much or it will develope epicormic branches (the trees have thousands of undeveloped branch buds on the trunk awaiting being triggered by enough sun to be worth growing, in other words they do not start if nature tells them that they will not grow enough to produce a positive sap flow for the trees sugar reserve). I feel that sugar makers actually do like this epicormic branching for the fuller crown but log value is not there then. We can have a few veneer potential trees growing thru out our sugarbush where the trees giving the proper shade to the timber tree for tall straight growth are the ones we tap. IMHO

[markcasper]

The past few weeks I have been actively searching for a private forester. In Wis, we have what they call the Managed Forest Law. They have other similar programs in other states, but call them something different. Its a program that lowers the property tax, while agreeing to keep the forest a forest, for 25-50 years.

You must have a management plan with your objectives and stuff. The woods is scheduled for a cut this year. Since starting on this, I have found out that most foresters are booked with jobs at least one year out.
When we placed the woods in the program in 2001, we made sure to make it known to the DNR, that I was actively tapping this land. They said that was ok and the management plan reflects this. They said there is lots of MFL lands being tapped.

I talked to 5 foresters already in trying to select one. For any syrup producers in Wisconsin that are reading this. DO NOT call A and K Forestry out of Eau Claire. The forester there (and there are 4 of them) gave me the run around about tapping, saying things that were plain nasty!

He got on the usual how tapping degrades the lumber so bad and that financially it is irresponsible to be tapping due to the fact the syrup will never make up for the lost value in the lumber.
He stated that "You won't get many bids on something like this....you won't get any high bids at all, financially speaking, there won't be enough money for you or me."
I was appalled and politely said that I'd keep looking.

I really would like to see a cost calculater for comparing this. Yes there are examples on this site of a tapped log vs untapped log, but on the whole, by the acre and over many years its hard to believe you can't make more from doing syrup. For one thing, people shout out a story, but don't have the numbers to back it up.

With vacuum, we are getting close to twice the production as what we did years ago. So that has to be figured in as a plus towards syrup production. Last I heard, high-grade veneer maple has not risen in price the last year or two like syrup has. My dad was telling that back in the 70's and before, there was no such thing around here as mass $$$$ for lumber of any kind. He said back in the 40's and 50's when they broke land alot of good trees simply got pushed into a pile to rot and burn, b/c they needed farm land. Now doesn't that turn some peoples heads. Who knows what these lumber markets will do or won't do.

Does Proctor or any other school of maple have a chart or something showing the levels of income from maple production vs. timber??

[twigbender]

This has been an interesting discussion. Lot's of wisdom typed out across these posts by a few guys that obviously know what they are talking about. I agree with forester1, he's hitting the nail right on the head. It all comes down to deciding what you want those trees for. If you want to have the best of both worlds, then your going to have to go out and do some grading or get someone to do it for you, e.g., a forester. Save the quality ones for lumber/veneer and the poor ones for syrup. Those trees with big, wolfy crowns don't make for good lumber or veneer but they'd be the best for tapping.
One thing you might consider: When I worked as a forester in SE Minnesota, we would never age (drill in with an instrument to get a core out) a quality tree at 4.5' which is standard. We always stump drilled them. You might want to consider tapping as low to the ground as you can get. Then, if it's a quality log, there'll just be a couple of feet bucked off at the landing -- makes great firewood!

[halfast tapper]

Around here it is hard to find a good forester. Most of them have only one concern and that is to line their pockets.
A friend of mine and I were renting a sugar lot , and after about 8 years renting and getting our sap stolen, and lines sabotaged all the time we decided it wasn't worth our efforts. The owners decided to log off the sugar lot, which was already logged about 9 years ago. A forester came in told them sugaring is no good , bad for lumber, blah, blah , blah, the usual song and dance.
When they were done logging this land there was nothing left, I mean nothing! They took everything, left the half dead trees , and the ones that they broke the tops out of .
What they left half of it will probably die from sun shock. They have nothing left on their land now. It will be another 75 to 100 years before there are any mature trees there to tap or harvest. What a waist.
In my opinion I would cut it myself or find a logger you can work with and only cut out the non-maple's. Keep the maples and thin out the rest with very conservative logging . You will have better woods and a real nice sugar lot.
Just as an estimate:
1000 taps = 1/2 gal. syrup per tap with vaccum
20 to 25 dollars a half gallon= 20 to 25 thousand dollars a year in syrup sales.
25,000 dollars x 75 years of tapping = 1,875,000
In my opinion tapping is better over the long run.

[hookhill]

This issue has come up again in our neck of the woods, Orange County, Vermont. All the land around us is under Vermonts Current Use Program which provides a tax break for landowners. The landlowners have to hire a forester to assess the land value and come up with a forest plan. Usually the forest plan is for timber management......period. There is almost never any provisions for sugaring unless the landowner requires it. I have had such a headache trying to lease trees. We keep running into the same song and dance from foresters about how sugaring degrades the value of the timber. All this does is scare the landowners. We setup a 400 tap pipeline on a neighbors land, spent 2k and hundreds of hours of labor only to have the forester bark to the landowner about the damage. Now we have to tiptoe around the landowner in order to stay there. It sure takes the fun out of it. The main moral of the story is what does the state of Vermont want out of its forest land. There are thousands of acres that are now unavailable to sugarmakers. Are we going to think of Vermont as the Maple Syrup State of the maple veneer log state?

[mountainvan]

I ran into the same thing here in New York last year. At least the landowner did'nt tell you take out all your taps!

[Brian Ryther]

When I went to the town to request to have a sugarbush changed from abandon ag back to ag I was told that a sugar bush was not considered ag land. Has anyone been able to have there sugar bush considered farm land?

[Thompson's Tree Farm]

Bryan,
I have several different deeds. Some are farm land, some abandoned farm land and some private forest. All have some sugar bush on them. New York considers Sugar houses agricultural buildings for real estate tax purposes (ten year exemption). Try explaining to your local officials that maple syrup income is considered farm income by the IRS and is reported as an agricultural activity on the US census of Agriculture. Most of my maples are on land that is considered ag land. If worst comes to worst, put a fence around it and call it pasture. I discovered the hard way that forested farm land was assessed higher than pasture land.

Hookhill,
I work with a local forester here in NY. He used to work as a county forester and is now on his own. He will provide a plan for whatever the landowner wants, wildlife, water conservation, timber or maple. But the landowner must request. With no specific request, he usually looks at improving the timber value of a woodlot. If there are areas that have many maples that are most suited for sugar production, he will suggest that as a possibility, but many land owners do not realize that there are people willing to lease trees or buy sap. In addition, the reported high prices for maple timber in the recent past has $ signs in peoples heads. Many do not realize that timber prices have fallen and that the high prices they have heard do not reflect the average stumpage that landowners receive.
Doug

[Russell Lampron]

My land in NH is in a current use plan. I pay a little more in taxes on it because I have it as just "Forested land" and not as "a Forest with a Stewardship plan". I can pretty much do as want with it as far as the timber and maples are concerned and I don't have to hire a forester to tell me which trees to cut and which trees to save. It is up to the land owner to decide but the money for leasing the trees for sugaring or selling the sap over time may be worth more than saving the trees for saw logs. After the butt log is sawed off there is still plenty of unblemished wood further up the tree that will still bring good money at the saw mill too.

[jrthe3]

i guess i got it ez the bush i just got from i guy up the road he is not real big on loging he told me i could do what ever i needed to do as long as i did not cut any living trees down
around here any land that is used for growing anything that can be ate by human or animal is cobsider ag leaves it wide open for interpiting

[PATheron]

Down here if you refer to it as horticultural purposes that fits the agricultural bill as I understand it. I may have not spelled that right but you get the idea. Theron

[Gary R]

I've spoken with county asseror's (? at least the first three letters are right) before in Venango county. They way I understood it for realestate tax savings you need to be a farmer or have your land as "forest reserve". To qualify as a farm at least 50% of your income has to come from the land. Forest reserve (which I have some) is forested with no buildings. As soon as we built our house on our second parcel, they greatly reduced any tax savings.

I'm sure every state is different.

[jrthe3]

i also think in PA it is local laws not state laws cause i now here all you have do show is that your land is used for farm and dose not have to be used by land owner i got my land as ag cause my dad and uncle use the land for hay and for pasture but i also get away with the syrup biss. on noconmercel land cause the syrup is made from the land so i can run the biss and sell the syrup out of my house with out con. zoneing then any building i build like the new sugar house i don't need a permit cause it ag use

[Russell Lampron]

In NH if I put up a building on the land that is in current use I only have to take the land that the building sits on and enough room around it to set up a ladder for maintenance purposes. The rest of the land stays in current use and gets the tax break.

Gary R check the current use laws at the state level. I found that the town and county people knew less about the laws than I did. They tried to pork me for a $2500 penalty 1 year because of improper use of the land. Half of the land they were trying to tax me on belongs to my daughter and come to find out what I was doing was perfectly legal to begin with.

[Gary R]

In this county, 1 acre of your parcel, wether you have a building on it or not is assest at $10,000. I know what you mean about the county level people. It may be there interpitation of a tax law. They couldn't give me any document's to show how this taxing is done. Unfortunately most of the tax is school tax for the Franklin district. If I lived 2 miles west, in Mercer county, taxes would be about half. I suppose I'd have to pay an attorney to figure this one out.

[cncaboose]

Brian, In NY, I don't know about other states, there are certain gross farm income values you have to meet in order for the land to be treated as "ag" for tax purposes. I believe it is $10000 gross (not profit) for the year. My syrup operation doesn't do that much $ but since I rent out the fields on the land to a farmer for crop production, his crops count toward the total. Find out where your nearest USDA office is and they can run you through it. You can have several separate parcels and have all qualify as long as the "farm" grosses $10000 overall. I had to get a property map from the county, fill out lots of paperwork, and have the USDA people do some additional paperwork. When all was said and done I got my school tax bill this SEpt and it went up significantly. I called and the town assessor told me that the Potsdam, NY school district does not recognize "ag" assessments. The town and county do so I will see easing on those taxes in Jan. You might check on your local school district to see what their position is. If they won't accept it, the whole process might not be worth it depending on your town and county tax. Try the following website for answering questions for NY.
www.orps.state.ny.us/pamphlet/exempt/agassess.htm

[cncaboose]

the website didn't transfer correctly. I'll try again.
www.orps.state.ny.us.pamphlet/exempt/agassess.htm

[cncaboose]

Not sure why this site won't put the whole thing in. Google "NY ag assessment" and you should be able to get the info.

[markcasper]

The ball has started rolling with my thinning project. Our forester that we hired, Jim Bryce, Cumberland, WI, will be working next week marking trees. We spent almost 4 hours in the woods today evaluating things and we each were picking each others brains. I have to say....at this point, I am very satisfied with the way he is going to evaluate and mark those for removal. My worst fears are gone now, and if anything, I tended to recommend cutting a little too much this time around.

I was amazed at his knowledge that he will apply in identifying what trees to remove. And he certainly portrayed his willingness to manage for syrup production, unlike alot of others that I interviewed last spring.

There were a few instances, however, that he recommended cutting a good maple to save and add value to (2) perfect white oaks that were extrodinare. I agreed with him on that as well after he explained that he figured both oaks were of veneeer quality. I was very pleased with what I saw and heard today.