Diaphram Vacum Pumps

[highway]

How many of you have used these and what are your thoughts? A local sugarmaker has one he installed this year and swears by it. No releasers and very simple pump assembly.

[Wardner in Tewksbury]

No releasers and very simple pump assembly.

Why no releasers? Does the sap pass through the pump and gets ejected through a spring loaded exhaust port? Can't see as how that would work without a small piston or gear type scavenger pump running at the same time.

Can he run 24/7? Probably not if ice crystals enter the diaphram chamber and contact the diaphram. Other than that, does it have a 100% duty cycle?

What is he getting for inches of hg?

[michiganfarmer2]

I have two of them. Ive never put a vacuum guage on them. I was told that they come with hard black diaphragms, and if you change to the soft white diaphragms, you can get 18 inches of vacuum.

Call Rick at sugar bush supply in Lansing Michigan. He sells them and is very knowlegable about them. He has a website with a phone number

[highway]

He is claiming 18 inches of vacume at the end of a 300 mainline with about 300 taps on it.

The pump runs 24/7 and he has not had issues with feeze up. The pump sits inline and simply dumps to the holding tank.

Pump has an electric motor that has a 100% duty cycle. He thinks it has saved his but this year when gravity kines did not do so well.

[michiganfarmer2]

electric motor? both of mine are 5 horse honda gas engines. IM thinkiing about selling one of them. If you want to talk about it call me at my sharpening business. 231-941-8003

[DrTimPerkins]

How many of you have used these and what are your thoughts? A local sugarmaker has one he installed this year and swears by it. No releasers and very simple pump assembly.

There are several threads on these types of pumps on this list. They're called "Sap Pullers" (not Sap Suckers, which is another type of pump for a small producer) and are essentially a diaphragm pump made to move liquid rather than air, however they will also move some air. They work well for smaller producers, and do not require a releaser. You can get 15-18" Hg as long as you keep your tubing very tight. They can't move much CFM, so any leak will drop the vacuum quickly, as will gases coming out of the tree on a really warm day. They should either be placed in a heated space, shut down and drained prior to a hard freeze, or propped at an angle so they'll drain naturally in order to prevent freeze damage to the diaphragm(s). They come in either electric or gasoline powered models. Good choice for a small producer. You should change the diaphragms every couple of years as they tend to dry rot.

http://www.goodrichmaplefarm.com/sap-puller-pumps.html

[500592]

Does that mean you can use a diaphragm pump from harbor freight or northern?

[DrTimPerkins]

Does that mean you can use a diaphragm pump from harbor freight or northern?

Never tried.

[500592]

Would this pump work http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/FLOJET-Electric-Sprayer-Pump-2XE86?Pid=search

[C&C maple sugar bush]

so with one of these Sap Puller Pumps u just hook it up to your main line and and plug it in? Do you need any thing else or just a sap puller pump?

[500592]

Would this pump work http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/FLOJET-Electric-Sprayer-Pump-2XE86?Pid=search

Yea it is suppose to be that simple but I wan to know if that pump from grainger will work

[sniperdodo]

Yea it is suppose to be that simple but I wan to know if that pump from grainger will work

Hi 500592
I just finished making my own sap puller with a 1 HP treadmill motor and a hand diaphram pump. It works great but I was surprised at the amount of pressure on both the suction and discharge side of the pump. During my trials and errors I have torn 2 diaphrams and had to change from V Belts to chains because of the amount of force required. On aprox. 500 feet of 1/2" mainline I am able to maintain 10" hg with my pump. My main lessons learned are that good quality spring loaded check valves are absolutely neccesary and the discharge should be at least twice the size of the suction to help relieve the pressures on the diaphram. I am trying to post a video of my pump and I will let everyone know the link.

[Tmeeeh]

This is the one I'm using on 750 taps. http://www.thebosworthco.com/pproduct.php?ID=GE-2600A-0 I added a 1 1/2 swing check valve on each side. It's in a heated room with the RO. No releaser. I added a piece of sap tubing from the sap tank to the input side of the pump. I choke the flow of sap in this tubing with a 1/4 inch valve. This keeps the pump and in particular the valves wet enough to hold vacuum better. As I write the sap is running hard and the vacuum is holding at 24". Come take a look.

[ronr]

Would this pump work http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/FLOJET-Electric-Sprayer-Pump-2XE86?Pid=search

It may work but it is only rated for intermittent duty, see link under "LF series"


http://www.ittflowcontrol.com/files/itemdoc158791.pdf

[500592]

It may work but it is only rated for intermittent duty, see link under "LF series"


http://www.ittflowcontrol.com/files/itemdoc158791.pdf

whats so special about the lf series

[collinsmapleman2012]

we use one of the sap puller pumps at my school for 200 taps, soon to be 250, and it works great. we made quick disconnects to attach the mains, and pvc for the rest. works great, and i had it going up to 24" before. need to walk these lines again though, an requires a tight system to work really well.

[ronr]

whats so special about the lf series

It is the model series of the pump in the link to Graingers that you posted.

From Grainger page link: Mfr. Model # LF112301A

[peckfarm]

We have a double diaphragm on 2- 1 inch mainlines that are 500 ft long connected to 3/4 mainlines that are 2000 ft. With 750 taps and only minimal line repair we run 16 inches all day long. The taps will almost double in count and with a little more effort I can't see why the puller wouldn't take care of it. As for other pumps, they are likely to work however the "Sap Puller" is all set up ready to go and only needs attention when ice cuts the diaphragm.

[markct]

the sap puller on goodriches website sure looks like the base of a bosworth company hand pump, just like whats on a filterpress and whats in the homemade one someone mentioned

[Wardner in Tewksbury]

Yea it is suppose to be that simple but I wan to know if that pump from grainger will work


That pump only lifts water to 3 feet. Seems to me that would equate to roughly 3" of Hg. Those Flo-Jets are configured for either high flow or high pressure. Not sure what would be better but it is probably the latter. When I looked at the Flo-Jet site, it appears that the highest lift in their product line was around 10 feet whereby other positive displacement pumps can achieve 23 feet of lift.

The intermittent rating on all their products has me concerned. There is a double asterisk next to "Duty Cycle" on one of the pumps but I couldn't find an explanation.

They can all run dry which is good. Looking at the valves in and out of the diaphragm chambers, they appear to be small and probably won't pass ice crystals. Repair and maintenance on those pumps might be an issue.

I wouldn't purchase that pump until I talked to a Flo-Jet engineer or applications guy.

I'm also looking for a puller. It seems to me that such a device needs to be protected from ice. That could be accomplished with either an indoor installation or heat trace wire.

My desire for a puller is predicated on my need for a pump that can suck and pump at the same time.

[DaveB]

This sounds interesting. I have an area by someone's house with 75 taps, all with a good slope that would be great to add vacuum to. I saw someone link to the Bosworth company and I wondered if one of their "lower end" pumps such this one would work:

http://www.thebosworthco.com/pproduct.php?ID=GE-0400D-0&Num=&S=0

For $334 it surely would make adding vacuum there appealing. It has a stated list of 5-18'. My understanding is that would translate to 5-18" of vacuum, correct?

They have more expensive units, but if you're talking under $800 for a small set of taps, it wouldpay for itself sooner. I would just want to know that this would work before spending the money.

[Wardner in Tewksbury]

I searched on "Bosworth" on eBay. There are four new pump bases for the Guzzler with a Buy-it-Now of $12.99 each. If one is handy, the only other thing to source from Bosworth is the diaphragm. The other parts such as check valves, gear-reduced motor, Heim Joint, aluminum plate, and misc small parts can be bought on eBay, found in your junk pile, or elsewhere. It would appear that a complete pump could be built for $100-$200. There is no indication on the eBay listing of what size the pump base might be. You can spend over $1500 new for the largest ready-to-use Guzzler.

Tim Meeh, from the North Family Farm in Canterbury, NH bought the biggest several years ago and likes it. You can search on tmeeeh here for more details.

eBay listing:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Bosworth-Guzzler-P-N-5400-1-bilge-pump-housing-New-/330522111610?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4cf4a72e7a

I did a little more snooping around the Bosworth site. It appears that the eBay pump base is a Bosworth 400 series part. The diaphragm for that base is $15.00. However, one can purchase a complete hand pump for $67.00. From there, one could attach their own gear-reduced motor and crank arm. Or just buy, as noted on a previous post, the factory complete electric pump for $334. 00. At this point, one has to figure out if the pump is large enough for their sugarbush.

I wonder what would happen if two of the small pumps were connected in series but separated by an air cushion vessel tee'ed into the center connecting pipe. Or maybe a flow restrictor fitting, such as a needle valve, as well.

[CBOYER]

1 inch Hg = 13.59 inch water, so 18 ft head mean 15.89 in hg for the maximum head. remember maximum head = minimum gpm

[500592]

Would this one work. http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ShurFlo-Diaphragm-Pump-Water-RV-1-0GPM-60PSI-12VDC-_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQhashZitem4cf5f9284cQQitemZ33054 4261196QQptZMotorsQ5fRVQ5fTrailerQ5fCamperQ5fParts Q5fAccessories#ht_573wt_948

[markct]

hate to say the old food grade thing, but bosworth makes a pump thats food grade fda approved white nylon, and one thats just plain plastic, and if it were me i know which i would want to buy. each to his own, but just throwing the thought out there for those who may not know

[DaveB]

hate to say the old food grade thing, but bosworth makes a pump thats food grade fda approved white nylon, and one thats just plain plastic, and if it were me i know which i would want to buy. each to his own, but just throwing the thought out there for those who may not know

That's a good point. In case anyone is wondering, here is what Mar

http://www.thebosworthco.com/pproduct.php?ID=GE-0400N-0

I'd like to know if someone uses something like this before I try it. It seems like it would work for a cheap vacuum system for areas with a low tap count.

Dave

[Wardner in Tewksbury]

I'd like to know if someone uses something like this before I try it.

Dave


If you read the entire thread, you will see that the North Family Farm is using a larger Guzzler with success.

Seems like they might have other uses as well. They could replace energy (vacuum) stealing sap lifts and do it at a much higher head. Yes, you would have to bring in electricity, photovoltaic panel plus battery (big cheap ones at Harbor Freight now), or compressed air for power.

They could replace releasers at the sap house and, at the same time, pump the sap to storage or head tank.

They might also work as vacuum boosters. They can be set up with variable speed controls, motor to pump ratios, and horsepower requirements. One has to bear in mind that these applications are all limited should freezing occur. The freezing concerns could be engineered out .

[DaveB]

If you read the entire thread, you will see that the North Family Farm is using a larger Guzzler with success.

Seems like they might have other uses as well. They could replace energy (vacuum) stealing sap lifts and do it at a much higher head. Yes, you would have to bring in electricity, photovoltaic panel plus battery (big cheap ones at Harbor Freight now), or compressed air for power.

They could replace releasers at the sap house and, at the same time, pump the sap to storage or head tank.

Yeah, I saw that...I also saw that they have 750 taps on that particular device. If you read my previous post as well (as I'm sure you did), I'm looking at a location at someone elses house that has 75 taps and I'm wondering if the smaller unit would work there.

I understand the limitations and I think this is a great idea. Even if it does not work there, I think it would be worth the investment to purchase. I think this is one of those ideas that doesn't get a lot of attention and I think a lot of smaller guys could benefit from it, especially if a $400 option is on the table.

[NH Maplemaker]

I have a water pump out in the barn to pump sap to the head tank. To keep it from freezing I built a styrofoam box with heat tape around the pump to keep it warm. It has worked well for maney years! Would think it would also work well on one of these pumps!JimL.

[maple33]

has anybody tried hooking up to battery for power with inverter ?? was told would run 8 to 10 hrs on car battery !!! also price i found is about $1000 is this good ????

[500592]

For 1000 why don't you buy a milk pump on eBay

[monktonmaple]

I am a small producer with less than 300 taps. This year I had about 260-270 taps. About 80 buckets and 220 on gravity tubing. We produced a little over 57 gallons this year. I want to get the benefits of vacuum. Ask a dealer and the entry point for getting vacuum set up and you are looking at something near $4000. Loooooooong pay back at that price. Thought about putting together my own vacuum system and still get close to $1500 if I went with a decent quality releaser. So the plan is to go with a diaphragm pump. The pump I am looking at is the GE 401. The motor selected will give 3.3gpm and 25 ft head. I went through some calculations. First with the 25 foot head I should theoretically get about 22inches. I know I will need to keep everything tight to get that kind of number but then with a regular vacuum system you need to keep after leaks to get the most benefit as well. I also did a calculation if the 3.3gpm was going to do the job as well. Using info from PMRC I came up with a .2 gallon/hour/tap with high vacuum for moderately high flow times. So with 250 taps@.2g/hr during high flow times I need a pump with less than 1gpm capability. I am looking at the umbrella flappers since they are suppose to be good for clear fluids and also a good choice for vacuum. I am planning to put a controlable leak back to keep the system wet since the performance of diaphragm pumps is supposedly improved when they are wet. The base price of this pump is $460. I figure with the pump configured as mentioned and other plumbing needs I will be setup for about $600. I am hoping that I will gain 40 gallons of syrup by doing this. If I was to go buy the syrup wholesale @$30/gal this should pay back in less than half the season. I can live with that kind of payback. See any holes in my logic??? Have I missed something???

[allgreenmaple]

I am a small producer with less than 300 taps. This year I had about 260-270 taps. About 80 buckets and 220 on gravity tubing. We produced a little over 57 gallons this year. I want to get the benefits of vacuum. Ask a dealer and the entry point for getting vacuum set up and you are looking at something near $4000. Loooooooong pay back at that price. Thought about putting together my own vacuum system and still get close to $1500 if I went with a decent quality releaser. So the plan is to go with a diaphragm pump. The pump I am looking at is the GE 401. The motor selected will give 3.3gpm and 25 ft head. I went through some calculations. First with the 25 foot head I should theoretically get about 22inches. I know I will need to keep everything tight to get that kind of number but then with a regular vacuum system you need to keep after leaks to get the most benefit as well. I also did a calculation if the 3.3gpm was going to do the job as well. Using info from PMRC I came up with a .2 gallon/hour/tap with high vacuum for moderately high flow times. So with 250 taps@.2g/hr during high flow times I need a pump with less than 1gpm capability. I am looking at the umbrella flappers since they are suppose to be good for clear fluids and also a good choice for vacuum. I am planning to put a controlable leak back to keep the system wet since the performance of diaphragm pumps is supposedly improved when they are wet. The base price of this pump is $460. I figure with the pump configured as mentioned and other plumbing needs I will be setup for about $600. I am hoping that I will gain 40 gallons of syrup by doing this. If I was to go buy the syrup wholesale @$30/gal this should pay back in less than half the season. I can live with that kind of payback. See any holes in my logic??? Have I missed something??? Interesting. What calculations are used to determine inches of vacuum? By any chance, are you utilizing one of these units... http://www.thebosworthco.com/pproduct.php?ID=GE-0400N-0

[monktonmaple]

The pump I am planning to use is the following.

http://www.thebosworthco.com/pproduct.php?ID=GE-0401D


The rated head for this pump with the configuration I am thinking of getting is 25 feet. This pump can be configured when ordered to different head and gpm capabilities. I used the calculation of 1inch Hg = 13.59 inches. So 25ft = 300 inches divide by 13.59 = 22 inches.
Obviously this a theoretical max. Head is also influenced by friction in the pipe ...which is determined by the fluid, ID of pipe, flow rate etc. Head is also influenced by temperature(vapor pressure) and altitude.

At the 25 foot head rating the pump is rated to pump 3.3gpm. The formula to covert to cubic feet from gallons is gallons x 0.13368. So theoretically the maximum for this pump as configured is .44 cfm (3.3x0.13368). The recommended cfm for sap collection systems is 1-2cfm per 100 taps.

What I am debating with right now am I better off configuring this pump with higher flow rate and sacrifice some of the head. ????????? I can double the flow rate but then will drop to 18inches Hg.

The other thought is to use a diaphragm pump as a releaser and get a vacuum pump sized to 25inches and 5cfm.

There is no such thing as a free lunch.


Bill

[Wardner in Tewksbury]

The other thought is to use a diaphragm pump as a releaser and get a vacuum pump sized to 25inches and 5cfm.

There is no such thing as a free lunch.


Bill

Whadda you mean there is no free lunch? Eat maple sugar soaked in maple syrup.

The Bosworth diaphragm will pump air (vacuum) and water at the same. The inlet side will produce vacuum and the outlet side will eject air (gas) and sap and send it to a storage tank.

How does the factory manipulate vacuum and flow? Do they alter the stroke? I haven't seen that in their literature.

My idea for maxing out a Bosworth is to get the large diameter 600 series bare pump (without motor) and two-stage it with a 400 or 500 series (basically same pump but different size ports). They would be mounted piggyback facing each other. One motor would drive both. Chances are that there would be a small ejector between them as I think the sap should not go through the second stage as it might lock up the smaller pump. This set-up would deliver very high vac and good flow.

BTW, I just bought a new Bosworth 500 hand pump on eBay for $25. The seller has the 600 hand pump for $250. The larger pump is made with metal (brass or aluminum).

[monktonmaple]

Hey Wardner....you giving away some free syrup so I can enjoy my free lunch?

If you click on the options on the Bosworth web site you can get different motor options...one difference is rpm and the other is torque. There is also an option for getting variable speed for the motor. What I found confusing is that lower rpm can achieve higher head values.


So are you thinking running them in series?? If running multiple pumps I would think there would need to be a syncing of cycles on the pumps....using a single motor would keep the pumps synced.

Wondering if multiple pumps on a manifold would make sense???

Bill

[Wardner in Tewksbury]

So are you thinking running them in series?? If running multiple pumps I would think there would need to be a syncing of cycles on the pumps....using a single motor would keep the pumps synced.

Wondering if multiple pumps on a manifold would make sense???

Bill
Yes, one motor, one crank, two connecting rods. Yes, in series. That is the operating concept of two-stage. Second stage has to have smaller displacement

Multiple pumps in parallel (two or more on a manifold) will only increase volume and may cause wave interference if driven by different motors. Get a bigger pump.