Cloudy syrup?

[3fires]

I noticed yesterday that the batch I ran Saturday, 1 gallon, was a bit cloudy and today it appears to be settling to bottom, sugar sand?

I ran it thru 4 pre's and a flat synthetic. I figured that would take it out, but apparently it didn't. I noticed that over half the syrup ran right thru when I filtered it except for maybe a 1/4 cup.

Did I do something wrong or does this just happen sometimes?

[500592]

you may want heat it a tad so that the syrup is a bit thiner and it will go through it easier

[3fires]

My concern isn't the speed at which the syrup ran through, but that I have sugar sand in the syrup after running it through the filters, I'm trying to figure out why. I thought the filters were supposed to remove the sugar sand.

:confused:

[3fires]

If anyone has any tips to avoid this sugar sand I'd appreciate it. I did reheat the syrup after filtering, but was careful not to get it over 190, let alone 200.

I'm thinking the filter didn't catch it as most of the syrup ran right through the filter immediately and the last 1/4 cup within 5 minutes after removing one prefilter.

[brookledge]

I'm assuming the filters were bought for maple syrup. So my questions are, Do you touch the filter while it is filtering? If you use a spoon or something to scrap the sides or disturb the filter it can let nitre through. also do you wring it? The key is not to disturb it.
Another thing you can do is to hold the filter up to a light and look for a thin spot. You may have a thing spot letting it through. I have seen were some wring out the filters and end up tearing the fibers creating a weak spot.
Keith

[wnybassman]

If anyone has any tips to avoid this sugar sand I'd appreciate it. I did reheat the syrup after filtering, but was careful not to get it over 190, let alone 200.

I'm thinking the filter didn't catch it as most of the syrup ran right through the filter immediately and the last 1/4 cup within 5 minutes after removing one prefilter.

As long as I have been doing this I can honestly say I have never had syrup run right through a filter immediately. It starts out painfully slow and only gets slower from there.

[3fires]

I'm assuming the filters were bought for maple syrup. Yes they were, a flat filter and 4 prefilters.

...Do you touch the filter while it is filtering? No!

... also do you wring it? No, only wet it with hot water, and gently squeeze excess water out, no wringing whatsoever. I removed one prefilter after 5 minutes to let the last 1/4 cup thru, but was very careful not to disturb the others or to simply dump the stuff it caugfht into the next filter.

Another thing you can do is to hold the filter up to a light and look for a thin spot. You may have a thing spot letting it through. I have seen were some wring out the filters and end up tearing the fibers creating a weak spot.
Keith

Thanks Keith, these are brand new filters and I didn't see any weak spots, they have not been rung out whatsoever.

[3fires]

As long as I have been doing this I can honestly say I have never had syrup run right through a filter immediately. It starts out painfully slow and only gets slower from there.

That's what I don't understand. I was under the impression the syrup would slowly work through but it ran right thru and within 5 minutes or so it was done.

You can see me filtering it at 16:12 in this vid and how much syrup was left in the filter after i poured it through. As I'm pouring you can hear the syrup running through the filter into the pan below.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NxAFNeDQLfk

The start of this vid shows how much was left after 5 minutes as I removed one prefilter.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=etYEgt2YRkQ

In the above two vids you can see exactly how I filtered it so that should eliminate any questions as to whether it was done correctly or not. If not, I'd like to know.

That's why I make the vids, so myself and others can learn from mistakes or see what works. So, if I screwed up tell me, I can take it. :emb: I just want to get to the bottom of it and eliminate the sugar sand.

Thanks again for all the help.

[3rdgen.maple]

That is not filtering to fast at all. First thing I would do is get a hydrometer so you know you have syrup. One thing I was always told to do with new synthetic filters was to boil them in water for awhile to shrink the fibers and make the filter tighter to catch more of the niter.

[brookledge]

When I first watched the video I though you might be getting some more nitre to precipitate out after you begin filtering. But I didn't see anything really wrong. Definately your timing on the bottling will allow for the temp to drop. How much nitre settled out afrter you bottled it?
Keith

[3fires]

I have a hydrometer on the way. I'd say maybe a 1/4" of nitre, although it hasn't settled completely, it's sort of hovering in the bottom 1/4" of the bottles. I got the filters pretty hot in a pan before using, but it wasn't quite boiling.

If that doesn't appear to be running through too quick then it may be that I micro overheated the syrup in spots before bottling. I figured most would sit in the filter for at least a few minutes, but over half ran through immediately. When I finished filtering the temp was 170 so I put it back on the heat and brought it up under 190, but some spots could have gotten hotter I suppose, but I was pretty careful not to let it boil.

I'd like to get it figured out before this weekend as I'll likely be making another gallon or three, and hope not to have the sugar sand this time.

Again, I appreciate all the help.

[maple flats]

Many use filter aid even on filters like you are. Check with Mountainvan for an amount to use. You should be able to get some from another producer who uses a filter press. Filter aid will enhance the filter's ability.

[Old-Timer]

Your problem is when reheating your creating more niter
with over temp @ the burner & syrup on the bottom of the pan! Reheat if needed in a double broiler if necessary.

[3fires]

I think you're right Old Timer, I'll give that a try next, thanks.

If that don't work I'll see about the filter-aid, thanks mapleflats.

[wnybassman]

Sorry about that. When you aid "run right through" it sounded like it was a matter of seconds. A few minutes or a little more is fairly normal.

Yep, sounds like overheating before bottling to me also. I did it for years and years myself, until I discovered this place. :)

[3fires]

That's alright, the way everyone talks I was thinking it should take like a half hour or so to filter. LOL! That's what I was expecting.:emb:

[Gary in NH]

An additional filtration step may help if you're not already doing it. I filter through synthetic filter sheets before bringing the syrup inside to finish. I cut the sheets so they fit a SS screen sieve with a handle so you can place it right on top of your pot. I'll plug up 4 or 5 small sheets per galllon. You would be surprised how much niter is already there. I also use a small amount of filter-aid. It coagulates suspended solids and makes them larger and easier to filter. I use the synthetic cone filters inside the synthetic felt cone. I hang mine from the corner kitchen cabinet door knobs and go into glass coffee pots that I bought specifically for syrup. I use a hydrometer and go a little past syrup to factor in what comes out of the filters for the first minute is diluted due to wetting them. I'm pouring it through at almost boiling temp. Once a coffee pot is filled I swap in another and go right to bottling. My filters never sit in the syrup as it filters. I think it's better to not submerge them so I just let them drip.

[3fires]

Thanks Gary.

I actually brought the sap to syrup this time around, :emb:, and it took a while to go through the filters, more than a half an hour. I removed two pre-filters before it all finally worked through. But, I made 13 1/2 pints this time.

I went ahead and used a cast iron skillet with some mason jar lids inside to suspend my pot for reheating the syrup before bottling, no micro boils this time. This morning the syrup looks nice and clear, but will wait until tomorrow or the next day to be sure.

Here's my double boiler, :rolleyes:... I made sure to keep it below 192, this digital thermometer works pretty good and has an alarm for high temp, plus it was pretty inexpensive.

http://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m50/shroomer69/Wild%20edible%20plants/Maple%20Syrup/DoubleBoiler.jpg

[BryanEx]

I went ahead and used a cast iron skillet with some mason jar lids inside to suspend my pot for reheating the syrup before bottling, no micro boils this time.
Very clever idea! :)

[3fires]

I figured i'd update this in case anyone else might have this same issue.

I have made 7 batches now this season and I got quicker and quicker with the filtering on each batch, just from getting used to the process. And, I think that may be the problem. As Igot quicker I was dumping the syrup into the filter quicker, and pulling pre's quicker.

For my last two batches I poured the syrup gently into the filters and let it set a good 5 minutes before starting to carefully pull pre's. These last two batches look pretty clear, so I may have just been rushing the filtering a bit.

Also, I'm using a larger pot inside a pot as a double boiler now for more even heat and bringing it off as soon as it hits 190. The deeper boiler heats the syrup up to bottling temp much quikcer too.

Another thing i've started doing is feeding my pans starting from the front pan only. I only add fresh sap to the rear pan. Since i've started doing this i notice very little sugar sand crusted up on the bottom of my front pan, so maybe it's being reduced by that as well. ??

I'm not sure which of these is helping, or, if it's a combination or simply luck of the draw. But, if i look at the mounds of sugar sand in my batches, bottle to bottle, it's like a hill with batch 4 being the top of the hill and batch 1,2 and 6 and 7 being the bottom. Batch 3,4, and 5 all have sugar sand, but 4 is by far the worst.

[Pete S]

We ended up with the same problem AGAIN!

We finished our syrup, then Ma re-heated to put into jars,..............did NOT boil.

ALL the jars are cloudy, and have sediment.

The stuff we just put in the other bottles that we didn't "seal" GIN CLEAR!

PITA!!!!

[BryanEx]

Pete S... try a different approach. Pour your syrup from this weekend into a stock pot or pan and leave it covered and undisturbed until next weekend. Next weekend carefully draw off the top syrup until you get to the sediment at the bottom of the pot and leave that part for last. The syrup you took off the top, bring to temp and then run it through your filter. If it does not look like it's been run through a filter press in your bottles then there's certainly a problem in your filtering process - perhaps the filter itself. Have you tried a different filter to be sure that's not the issue?

- Bryan

[Pete S]

We bring our pan to syrup. So I think when we bring it to syrup by the time the pan comes off,...........we're just a tad beyond.

As I said the stuff we just bottled with twist tops for quick consumption is GIN CLEAR.

Last night we brought it to 55 brix. We're letting it set as we did beofre, but were going to test it COLD for it's brix.

I know it's not rocket science, but it is a learning process.

Thanks!

[sap seeker]

I struggled with this same problem all season. The syrup has a "hovering cloud" near bottom. I used my orlon with pre-filter at boiling from my big pan to my stock pot. From there I made it to syrup (with hydrometer) and immediately filtered again, adding it to mason jars after it cooled to 180-190. I finished my last batch yesterday and saw this same scenerio this morning.:cry: Even though for personal use, I really want to redo it and get it "right".

Even though slower to strain, wouldn't filtering at 180-190 mean no more nitre is being produced after the final filtering?

[Pete S]

Well the stuff we "took off" at 55 Brix let set, and we had NOTHING for sediment/sugar in the bottom. Again Gin Clear!

Ma checked Brix cold and it was dead awn!

SO, we're thinking that with all the heat and time it take to get it off when we have HOT Brix readings at 59, allows it to "cook further".

SO,.............with new found confidence, took the cold syrup heated to 180* using a digital and mercury thermometers, (to be darn sure) then canned.

Guess what! CLOUDY SYRUP with sediment AGAIN!

What is going awn here?

Do we get this from the syrup actually getting TOO HOT at the base of the stainless steel kettle at the burner!

It's a bit embarrassing as we're selling a lot of this but friends and family don't seem to mind as the flavor overcomes the asthetics of the bottled stuff.

We need to figure this out as we intend to do more as time progresses.

Help!

Thank you!

[Brent]

This whole problem is very common.

When you re-heat the bottom of the pan will be over 200 degrees even though most of the syrup will be less than 190. That part in contact with the pan will start to percipitate fresh nitre. You will get that any time you re-heat in a single layer pan with a gas or electric burner under it.

The double boiler rig will solve that.

Larger producers use water jacket canners where the ele ctric heater heats water and the water jacket totally surrounds the syrup, right up the sides. With these the syrup is heated gently to 185 degrees. I have left syrup in our water jacket canner for 24 hours and it did not make any new sugar sand.
You need to try to copy that model and a double boiler pot set like in the picture above is a good economical way to do it.

[sap seeker]

This whole problem is very common.

When you re-heat the bottom of the pan will be over 200 degrees even though most of the syrup will be less than 190. That part in contact with the pan will start to percipitate fresh nitre. You will get that any time you re-heat in a single layer pan with a gas or electric burner under it.

The double boiler rig will solve that.

Larger producers use water jacket canners where the ele ctric heater heats water and the water jacket totally surrounds the syrup, right up the sides. With these the syrup is heated gently to 185 degrees. I have left syrup in our water jacket canner for 24 hours and it did not make any new sugar sand.
You need to try to copy that model and a double boiler pot set like in the picture above is a good economical way to do it.

I understand what you are saying about re-heating to 180-190, makes sense. Any thoughts on my situation, filtering immediately into a two quart mixing cup and then letting it cool to 180-190 before putting in Mason jars:confused:

[Brent]

It would work great IF you could keep it hot enough. I think that by the time it goes through a filter and wait a few minutes while you get enough to pour off, it will cool too much.

Preheating your bottles may help. We heat all our bottles in the oven. Especially with small bottles they chill the syrup so fast that you can't get the cap on an keep it sterile without preheating.

It's worth a try.

[sap seeker]

It would work great IF you could keep it hot enough. I think that by the time it goes through a filter and wait a few minutes while you get enough to pour off, it will cool too much.

Preheating your bottles may help. We heat all our bottles in the oven. Especially with small bottles they chill the syrup so fast that you can't get the cap on an keep it sterile without preheating.

It's worth a try.


I guess my real question is if you are running it through your filters at 215-219, isn't it making new nitre until it cools below 190 or so? Is that the amount I'm seeing in my bottles, the "new" nitre? Thank you for your help, backyard hack here.

[Brent]

Hmm, interesting thought. I can tell you that just trying to get a hydometer cup full and taking a reading at 211 deg is not easy. That's why we use the Acu-cup with a built in thermometer. Most tests are taken at 190. It really cools fast. Even just the pouring of or passing through a valve will drop the temp. I can't really answer that. I think it will cool so fast it's not likely to be an issue but you'd have to measure to test it.

I can say that any time, to my knowledge, someone comes to the forum to complain about cloudy suryp, they have re-heated to generate it or used sub-standard or abuse filter (wringing them out).

I wouldn't be afaid of it making more as you filter.

[sap seeker]

Hmm, interesting thought. I can tell you that just trying to get a hydometer cup full and taking a reading at 211 deg is not easy. That's why we use the Acu-cup with a built in thermometer. Most tests are taken at 190. It really cools fast. Even just the pouring of or passing through a valve will drop the temp. I can't really answer that. I think it will cool so fast it's not likely to be an issue but you'd have to measure to test it.

I can say that any time, to my knowledge, someone comes to the forum to complain about cloudy suryp, they have re-heated to generate it or used sub-standard or abuse filter (wringing them out).

I wouldn't be afaid of it making more as you filter.

I came home after work and re-did it, it was bugging me that bad, using suggestions contained in this thread. Looks good so far, we will see what it looks like in the morning. Thanks for your help and input Brent, much appreciated.

[sk8heaven]

Ok, I am far from an expert, but I have gone through the cloudiness and the "morpheus blob" hovering near the bottom of my clear 1/2 pint and 3/4 pint bottles. A little embarassing to sell with that in there. This year, I was determined not to have that situation. I have done just 10 gallons of syrup this year but it is all crystal clear. My changes this year were:
Running through paper pre-filters when drawing it off the evaporator at about 217 degrees (+/-). This helped immensly whith how fast it goes through my final filters before canning. Then I would finish in the house right to the line on the hydrometer and immediately remove from the burner and dump through a prefilter and orlon filter into my canning unit (16x16). While the syrup was finishing on the stove, I was pre-warming all of my bottles and filters in the oven at 200 deg. I also lit the burner under my canner for a few minutes to preheat it but made sure it was only "touchable" warm before running the syrup in. I am not sure which part of this helped (I actually read about pre-heating the bottles on this site somewhere). I go immediately from my canner to the bottles and only light the burner under it at very low on the batches that are over a gallon if it cools below 185. Usually (especially the large batches) the mass of syrup retains heat pretty well.

[Brent]

sk8heaven
so after doing all that did it come out clear ?

[sk8heaven]

Brent
Yes, I attached a couple of pics - it was all clear this year. Pretty stuff if I do say so myself :)

[Brent]

That makes your bottle almost priceless. Well done.

[GramaCindy]

brent
yes, i attached a couple of pics - it was all clear this year. Pretty stuff if i do say so myself :)

gorgeous!:)

[3fires]

Well, it took a good week to notice, but my batch 7 has sugar sand, so problem is not solved. My 8th batch is sugar sand free though, so it's quite confusing what's causing the drastic changes in sugar sand from batch to batch.

It's getting through the flat filters I bought. I can't trust these filters. I will use them next season to remove large particles and rely on letting the syrup settle for a week before re-heating and bottling. That way if I get sugar sand, I'll know it's from the reheat process, or something after the filter process.

It's definitely frustrating as I've literally babied these new 20 dollar filters, and spent a great deal of city water $$ on rinsing them clean afterwards following the instructions to a tee. No wringing, and I'm not heating the syrup or any part of it over 190 after filtering.

Bottom line: The synthetic flat filters I bought don't work 100% of the time for removing sugar sand. I need something I can rely on 100% of the time. :mad:

[buck3m]

Every time I think I have it figured out I eventually get some sugar sand.

This year I had some syrup sitting about two weeks to settle before bottling. There would be one container clear as could be, and the very next one would be all cloudy, still full of suspended particles. All the syrup I filtered subsequently. Canned two big batches over the last two days. The first batch appears to be all clear. The second has some cloudy bottles, but in this case I think it was because in the swirl of activity I let a couple of kettles full get too hot.

Two different big maple suppliers told me that there is no foolproof way short of a filter press. For me, I think almost every time I end up with sugar sand in the bottles it's because I didn't stir enough so a layer of syrup on the bottom of the container got too hot, or I let the syrup heat above 195 while distracted.

[Jim Brown]

buck3m/3fires; We fought the sugar sand battle also and the folks that told you the only way to fix the problem is with a filter press is right! The small 5 inch presses that are sold on the trader are a good investment for the small backyard producer.
Our two cents

Jim

[SDdave]

I too had this same problem with the niter build up...I wish I would've kept my batches seperate and taken records of temps while filtering and bottling. Scratch that one up to inexperience I guess.

I have a silghtly different problem with some of my other batches. I seem to have a clear like line in the syrup. The amount would be less than 5 ml per any size bottle. (I cannot capture this on photos.) I guess it would resemble oil in water (a drastic comparison). I am just chalking it up as a having some of the syrup beyond the correct density. But am interested in any input.

Had a great year!
SDdave

[seclark]

I looked at some of my bottles last night and seen some were cloudy so I did them over today and used 3fires method of heating the syrup back up to 180 after filtering with the syrup in a smaller stainless pot inside a bigger steamer pot that has an insert to keep the inner pot off the bottom about 1.5".I think like someone else mentioned that the very bottom of your pan when reheating gets hotter first thus giving you more niter.So I will see if this trick works and if so I will use this method next year,come on march:lol: