View Full Version : Galvanized garbage can?
Birdland Sugarbush
03-07-2011, 08:21 AM
I'm having a hard time finding large food grade containers to store my sap. What about galvanized garbage cans? Has anyone used one of those?
mapleack
03-07-2011, 09:26 AM
You're better off with a plastic tote than a galvanized garbage can. The galv can have lead in it. Not sure where you're located, but search around for food grade drums that have held things like juice. Also check with bakeries for empty five gallon icing buckets. Good luck.
highlandcattle
03-07-2011, 09:30 AM
If you are using it for yourself, I guess go ahead, lots of people from what I'm reading do worse. I go to all the Cornell workshops to try to stay on top of things, and this along with plastic trash cans is a big no no. Bad things leach out of this stuff, with aluminum also. Got rid of everything, for my canning also and have gone all stainless steel. We also belong to CNG, so we ae organic(Yes, everyone argues over what this means) For us, it's NO chemicals, our trees are sustainably managed,no blow-over from our nearsest neighbooring dairy farm(they don't use sprays) our sugarbush is isolated, so no road dust, and everything is food grade if someone happens to stop by for an inspection. Dept. of Ag. is known is make visits. Beer kegs are ok,milkcans, food grade plastic containers, check with maple supply catalogs, Tractor Supply, etc. Good luck.
reddeer
03-07-2011, 03:16 PM
A used 275 gal IBC tote with a food grade liner and a new valve added would make a good cheap sap tank.
MapleOak
03-07-2011, 08:12 PM
I have found that galvanized garbage cans tend to leak after a short time of use... never used it for sap just to hold water...
500592
03-23-2011, 01:40 PM
A used 275 gal IBC tote with a food grade liner and a new valve added would make a good cheap sap tank.
Were can I get one of those
Careful, there are some folks on here who are gonna blast you for even posting that. I am not one of them though. I plan on buying a 180 gallon galvanized stock tank from tractor supply for $130..The HPDE tank for 125 gallon is $300+..aint gonna do it. sap wont be in there long enough!
DrTimPerkins
03-23-2011, 07:45 PM
...sap wont be in there long enough!
Perhaps not, but the lead will be in your children's blood and brain for quite a while.
Perhaps not, but the lead will be in your children's blood and brain for quite a while.
ok, point well taken.
cvmaple
03-23-2011, 08:04 PM
I read a lot of posts on here that say if you are making it for yourself (syrup) then go ahead and use whatever you think you can get away with!! When your neighbour saunters over to see what all the steam is about and offers to buy some are you going to tell him you collected sap in old oil jugs boiled it in a used galvanized bath tub and filtered it through unwashed underwear OR are you going to be neighbourly and give him a bit of a discount because he's really not that bad of a guy!! Just curious how you handle that situation.
Doc
a question.
if the galvanized stock tank tests negative for lead with a modern home lead test kit. how would it be differant than the galvanized buckets sold for sap buckets?
I read a lot of posts on here that say if you are making it for yourself (syrup) then go ahead and use whatever you think you can get away with!! When your neighbour saunters over to see what all the steam is about and offers to buy some are you going to tell him you collected sap in old oil jugs boiled it in a used galvanized bath tub and filtered it through unwashed underwear OR are you going to be neighbourly and give him a bit of a discount because he's really not that bad of a guy!! Just curious how you handle that situation.
are you asking me personally??:confused: if so, I have no idea. woudlnt give him a discount though, probably just give him some syrup..if he provided the container that is...
John c
03-23-2011, 08:11 PM
So what I am hearing is that the old school, galvanized sap buckets are the wrong way to go and that all the old houses that our parents and grandparents grew up in with galvanized water pipes are all gonna kill us?
My grandma must have carried 1000's of galvanized buckets of water from the well for her family to drink and filled up her galvanized bathtub and soaked in it 100's of times.
I think that we should be a bit less complicated and realize that we all probably grew up on syrup that was not only collected in galvanized buckets, but most likely boiled in galvanized as well and we're still alive! Or are we?
cvmaple
03-23-2011, 08:13 PM
No I am not centering you out adk. Just the whole do whatever you want nobody else will get hurt or learn anything from your mistakes mentality. Maybe I am just having a bad day and need to rant.
it is a very interesting topic. Maybe todays galv coatings are not the same as yesteryears? Dont know if they are less or more harmful... And yes, you have a point where galvanized was used pretty much exclusively in sugaring and everyday use. I just dont know. Interesting how plastic came around in what, the late 30's or 40's, and everyone started to use it for everything. And look what is happening.
happy thoughts
03-23-2011, 08:36 PM
it is a very interesting topic. Maybe todays galv coatings are not the same as yesteryears? Dont know if they are less or more harmful... And yes, you have a point where galvanized was used pretty much exclusively in sugaring and everyday use. I just dont know. Interesting how plastic came around in what, the late 30's or 40's, and everyone started to use it for everything. And look what is happening.
Lead is a major concern in galvanized buckets but I would also be concerned about zinc which is used to galvanize them. I think it is the denture adhesive poligrip which has recently been associated with zinc poisoning and zinc has since been removed from it.
For a long time I lived near Palmerton PA, which is now an EPA superfund site because of the one time zinc processing industry there. There are still thousands of acres where no vegetation grows, not even a blade of grass. Most is attributed to heavy metals in the ore processing. It is a sorry site to see.
DrTimPerkins
03-23-2011, 08:50 PM
if the galvanized stock tank tests negative for lead with a modern home lead test kit. how would it be differant than the galvanized buckets sold for sap buckets?
Not a lot....I wouldn't use either.
Galvanized prior to 1994 contained some lead. Galvanized buckets and tanks prior to 1994 also had lead solder, or on older buckets, ternplate (50% lead) bottoms.
Newer galvanized does not have much lead...but does contain a LOT of zinc, which will solubilize somewhat in sap (which is often slightly acidic...and the sap can sit in the bucket for a while). Zinc in moderate doses can cause diarrhea and vomiting. In higher doses it can cause anemia. Children are far more susceptible than adults to any heavy metal exposure.
For drinking water, galvanized pipes and tanks aren't necessarily bad (not good either), but water is not generally acidic. If you have very soft (agressive) water, it could be a problem.
To my knowledge, galvanized has NEVER been an FDA approved material, or USDA approved for food contact surfaces. So why use it? If you're trying to cut corners on making food that someone else will consume....then perhaps you shouldn't be making a food product.
DrTimPerkins
03-23-2011, 08:57 PM
Maybe todays galv coatings are not the same as yesteryears? Dont know if they are less or more harmful...
True....but they also used to xray people's feet to get their shoe size. The science of toxicology has come a long way since galvanized buckets were introduced. Might be a can of worms you don't want to open.
DrTimPerkins
03-23-2011, 09:02 PM
So what I am hearing is that the old school, galvanized sap buckets are the wrong way to go and that all the old houses that our parents and grandparents grew up in with galvanized water pipes are all gonna kill us?
Sap (or syrup) is NOT the same as water. Put some water in a galvanized pail for a few days and it's fine. Put some sap in there for a few days....you'll find you have a really nasty bit of sap in a very shiny bucket. The acidity of the sap (as it ferments) will leach the zinc right off the bucket. Then you boil that sap down and concentrate the zinc. Very different situation between water and sap.
Then again.....why isn't there still a lot of galvanized iron pipes for water being made these days? Companies wouldn't sell it to you if you said you were going to use it as water pipe.
Sap (or syrup) is NOT the same as water. Put some water in a galvanized pail for a few days and it's fine. Put some sap in there for a few days....you'll find you have a really nasty bit of sap in a very shiny bucket. The acidity of the sap (as it ferments) will leach the zinc right off the bucket. Then you boil that sap down and concentrate the zinc. Very different situation between water and sap.
Then again.....why isn't there still a lot of galvanized iron pipes for water being made these days? Companies wouldn't sell it to you if you said you were going to use it as water pipe.
yes I think I have seen that with small amounts of sap in a bucket for a few warm days . it looks so nasty I toss it and rense the bucket well. I did not know it was the zinc reacting. I just thought it was bad from the heat and brackish
500592
03-24-2011, 05:38 AM
oh so its not good for us but for animals its fine? and why do they sell them at bascoms if they aRENT safe
DrTimPerkins
03-24-2011, 05:49 AM
oh so its not good for us but for animals its fine? and why do they sell them at bascoms if they aRENT safe
Animals typically live far shorter lives than humans, and we (as individuals and society) are far less concerned about possible health and cognative problems in animals than humans.
As I've said, galvanized has been used in maple and other industries for a long-time....that still doesn't mean it is OK. Most food industries have phased it out, or are in the process.
John c
03-24-2011, 07:46 AM
This topic is a good one and it has me playing "devils advocate" in my own mind. I agree 100% that galvanized metal contains things that we wouldn't or shouldn't consume in high doses, however the human body is an amazing thing and I think if a person is eating enough maple syrup that was produced with "galvanized metal" to poison their body to the point of concern, then maybe that person should consider changing their diet because that much sugar isn't that good for them either and they will most likely die of a heart attack due to obesity long before the zinc or lead will show signs of harm!
Just for the record, I don't use galvanized anything for any of my syrup. I use only stainless steel, but only because I have been blessed by God to be able to afford it and I think it's pretty and so easy to clean!
Anyway, that's my 2 ignorant cents!
I am wondering what the "food safe plastics" have in store for us.. Never know and time will tell. But I will shell out the additional funds for the 125gal HPDE tank at Tracter Supply now.
I am wondering what the "food safe plastics" have in store for us.. Never know and time will tell. But I will shell out the additional funds for the 125gal HPDE tank at Tracter Supply now.
the plastic industry sets those standards....
it is known that several types leach out known carcenigens. Those crushable plastics are the worst. These have a 1 in the triangle, the institute says they do not leach MUCH unless they are reused and are safe enough to be used once....
hpde is not "known" to leach much if anything
pvc although it is used for water pipes in some places, leaches all kinds of bad stuff from carcinagens to other known toxins. heat makes it worse and BTW is not food safe by anyones standards that I have found.
bowtie
03-24-2011, 11:08 AM
i use galv buckets that were sold to me at a d and g store they also had a used stock tank for sale. i also store in a 100 gallon stock tank, but am going to get bigger poly tank next year. i realize that we have better tech now and that older galv has lead but who is to say that the "food grade plastic" we use now will not be found to be harmful in 10 to 15 yrs. if you use plastic microwavable containers you are probably subjecting your family to more harm than using galv buckets. 1994 and newer use lead-free solder. i am calling tsc to see if their stock tanks use lead-free solder also. zinc is trace element that we get in our cereals and other foods, how is too much ?? really do not know. most everything we ingest is posionous if comsumed in large quantities, people have died from ingesting to much water. if galv buckets are really harmful then shouldn't we start a movement to have banned or removed?? i would be on board with that if it is true, and would question why maple equipment stores sell them.
bowtie
03-24-2011, 11:26 AM
i would guess in response to kev seeing nasty sap in buckets on warm days that it is due to bacteria growing the buckets,ie microorganisms. also if you use clip on tops you probably have insects, small flies and moths in your buckets if it was a warm night. just 2 days ago when i checked my buckets i found a dead flying squirrel in one. if most of us knew what our "safe" food went through before it reached the supermarkets we would more than likely puke!!
i would guess in response to kev seeing nasty sap in buckets on warm days that it is due to bacteria growing the buckets,ie microorganisms. also if you use clip on tops you probably have insects, small flies and moths in your buckets if it was a warm night. just 2 days ago when i checked my buckets i found a dead flying squirrel in one. if most of us knew what our "safe" food went through before it reached the supermarkets we would more than likely puke!!
LOL you got that right
I worked for the soy place I get my food grade barrells as seasonal help one year...
we could not sweat on the beans (makes sense) everything in the plant had to be food grade. but we scooped rotten beans off the tunnel floors (wet concrete) back onto the conveyers on the way to the cookers and extruders:rolleyes: and we unloaded beans out of trucks and trailers that haul asphalt and all sorts of other stuff all year long and just haul grain during the harvest season.
DrTimPerkins
03-24-2011, 12:29 PM
i would guess in response to kev seeing nasty sap in buckets on warm days that it is due to bacteria growing the buckets,...
It is not the nasty sap that is of concern, it is the fact that the metal underneath is now shiny and new looking. This is because fermentation of the sap causes it to get more acidic, and the acidity of the sap leaches the surface metal off of the bucket, leaving a nice looking shine. So where did the surface metal go....into the sap.
And that is why some folks leave their pans with sap in them for a month..I ehar it cleans them right up!
DrTimPerkins
03-24-2011, 12:34 PM
i would guess in response to kev seeing nasty sap in buckets on warm days that it is due to bacteria growing the buckets,...
It is not the nasty sap that is of concern, it is the fact that the metal underneath is now shiny and new looking. This is because fermentation of the sap causes it to get more acidic, and the acidity of the sap leaches the surface metal off of the bucket, leaving a nice looking shine. So where did the surface metal go? Straight into the sap.
And that is why some folks leave their pans with sap in them for a month..I ehar it cleans them right up!
Yes and most all pans are stainless so there is really nothing going to come off or out of the metal.
It is not the nasty sap that is of concern, it is the fact that the metal underneath is now shiny and new looking. This is because fermentation of the sap causes it to get more acidic, and the acidity of the sap leaches the surface metal off of the bucket, leaving a nice looking shine. So where did the surface metal go? Straight into the sap.
once you toss the sap and rinse the bucket. are you still going to pull more zinc with fresh sap than you did when the metal was dull?
500592
03-24-2011, 02:19 PM
So could someone get me the link to the right tank TSC please
http://www.tractorsupply.com/leg-style-storage-tank-525-gal--2125848
bowtie
03-24-2011, 03:06 PM
dr. perkins
if we do not want to use tubing, what would you recommend that i use to be safe. is there a liner i can put on/in galv buckets to make them safe. i am not afraid to spend some money but $20 for an alum. bucket is a lot when compared to a used galv./lid $6.50. espcially whan i want 100-150 buckets next year. i appreciate your advice
I would go with the sap sacks and holders.
johnallin
03-24-2011, 03:24 PM
Bowtie, If you're thinking about plastic liners; you may want to look into sap bags. The holders are normally priced in the $4.50 to $6 range and bags are about 50¢ ea depending upon quantity. We've used them for 6 years now and other than the occasional 'blow off" in high winds, we are very happy with the results.
Storage space is minimal - 24 will fit into a box about 12" square - and there is nothing to wash out at the end of the year, and you can see what's in them without having to walk up to the tree.
There are also threads in here that show what others have done to make their own out of PVC. Good luck.
I ahve a contact to get the holders for alot less than what the professionals sell them at
John c
03-24-2011, 05:01 PM
Is there any chance that the bags would fit into the galvanized buckets as a liner? I Wouldn't know because I don't use either.
nope sorry, at least not wrapping over the rim. you might be able to rig something up though.
happy thoughts
03-24-2011, 08:11 PM
Here's an old thread that discusses food grade plastic pail liners. It looks like someone found a source of food grade plastic bags that would fit their buckets- the liner discussion starts about post #49
http://mapletrader.com/community/showthread.php?t=2493&highlight=plastic+liners&page=4
Judging from some of the FDA petitions for packaging submitted for review that I read last week, a food grade plastic barrier of at least 4 mils thick would seem adequate where temperature extremes aren't a factor. Just be aware that I am absolutely no expert, just a concerned consumer. It's entirely possible lead could still migrate through such a barrier. You might want to contact a maple research program like the ones at UVM or Cornell for more guidance. They may have some specific recomendations.
DrTimPerkins
03-25-2011, 09:02 AM
if we do not want to use tubing, what would you recommend that i use to be safe. is there a liner i can put on/in galv buckets to make them safe. i am not afraid to spend some money but $20 for an alum. bucket is a lot when compared to a used galv./lid $6.50. espcially whan i want 100-150 buckets next year. i appreciate your advice
Galvanized buckets are currently fine to use, especially if they are no-lead, as they are deemed "suitable for the intended purpose" of collecting sap as far as the regulators are concerned. It is the use of a galvanized trash barrel (or any kind of trash barrel) or a stock tank (intended to water livestock) that I have an issue with. Trash barrels are intended for use with trash. So for now at least, galvanized (or aluminum) buckets are OK.
Jim Schumacher
03-25-2011, 09:24 AM
Sap (or syrup) is NOT the same as water. Put some water in a galvanized pail for a few days and it's fine. Put some sap in there for a few days....you'll find you have a really nasty bit of sap in a very shiny bucket. The acidity of the sap (as it ferments) will leach the zinc right off the bucket. Then you boil that sap down and concentrate the zinc. Very different situation between water and sap.
Then again.....why isn't there still a lot of galvanized iron pipes for water being made these days? Companies wouldn't sell it to you if you said you were going to use it as water pipe.
Wisconsin has perhaps the most prohibitive plumbing codes of all fifty states. Galvanized water pipes are still code compliant. They are considered to be suitable for a water service, whether above or below ground, or to be used for water distribution systems. They are no longer used (often) because they are not cost effective and are habitual for clogging shut with rust.
Jim
Galvanized buckets are currently fine to use, especially if they are no-lead, as they are deemed "suitable for the intended purpose" of collecting sap as far as the regulators are concerned. It is the use of a galvanized trash barrel (or any kind of trash barrel) or a stock tank (intended to water livestock) that I have an issue with. Trash barrels are intended for use with trash. So for now at least, galvanized (or aluminum) buckets are OK.
I will be checking every bucket I own for lead (some I am positive are leaded and I have never used them, they oxidize to the same color as an old bullet)
I hate my aluminum buckets due to the aluminum oxide that is there a few days after cleaning. although I did use them this year for half this season.
I kow dad spent a bunch of time locating a lead free stock tank for the head tank. it was new and has never had anything but sap or water and sanitizer in it. Yet I WILL replace it before next season. Sigh. I have less faith in plastic than I do in that tank.
I am convinced that the risks of toxins from the plastic is under reported and
under tested. but its good for the petrol industry.
the known leaching from those products are concentated in the evap proccess just like the zinc.
Thank you for the time and effort you put into educating us idiots :D
on all aspects of sugaring. from efficency and production to safety.
Kev
CBOYER
03-25-2011, 11:56 AM
You talk about aluminium oxyde?? i never see oxydation in my aluminium buckets, However, never clean aluminium whit Chlorox or worse caustic! you only have to clean whit dish soap and brush.
WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER
03-27-2011, 06:12 AM
I wash my aluminum buckets with bleach water and they never oxidize.
stoweski
03-27-2011, 06:41 AM
Keep an eye on craigslist for someone with an HDPE stock tank (or a stainless tank for that matter). Once you find one the size you are looking for go and talk with the guy/gal about what they used it for and if they were the first owner. If it sounds sketchy, move on.
The tank I picked up was used for potable water when the dam on a pond burst a few years ago (Hadlock Pond for those of you in the GF/LG area). After finally getting water back the guy listed the tank on craigslist. It looked brand new. With a little bleach and triple rinse (pressure washed too) just to be safe it's definitely brand new.
Though a 200 gallon tank is a bit small for my needs now. Guess I'll be taking my own advise here and finding another tank. :rolleyes::rolleyes:
I was just given a 225 gallon polyethelene tank! Come to find out a friend of mine had it. IT was given to him by his neighbor who bought it to use in the dry summer months when his well would go dry. HE would trailer it down to my friends mothers house and fill it up and take it home. HE then gave it to my friend when he drilled a new well and no longer needed it. My friend used to water his garden with. SO as far as I know, it has only been used for water.
Right now it is under a pile of snow so once it melts, I will check it out. Might have just saved myself $400+!
802maple
03-27-2011, 08:57 AM
I think because we are making a food product, that, we should try as hard as we can make a safe product. Stainless is the best way to go if you can find it and afford it.
Now having said this, I would like to offer the following.
I do believe that I was a kid once upon a time and I had syrup made from sap that was stored in galvanized tanks, boiled in leaded galvanized pans, stored in turn plate milk cans that were soldered with lead that even had a occasional broken mercury thermometer in it. Also I probably chewed on leaded paint on the windowsill along with my brothers and sister (this could explain my sister, though) I wish I had a couple hundred customers like myself that used as much as I do, then I could just make a living with maple. I can't see where it has effected anyone in my family or friends. I think sometimes we overreact about things.
Again we should Like Dr. Tim says, take every possible chance to make the safest product that we can and not use dirty underwear to filter with, oil cans to store it in and half a oil drum to boil our wonderful product in. I have big shoulders so let me have it.
802,
What about clean underwear?
802maple
03-27-2011, 11:16 AM
Clean underwear would be fine unless somebody had thought about wearing them, then you would have to toss them. LOL
KenWP
03-27-2011, 03:23 PM
We all know this food safe thing gets taken to a extreme on here. I bet everyone of the people who say they worry about what they will feed their kids also drives the speed limit and reads all the labels on every food product they use also.
I will have to say I had to get all the old metal army fillings taken out of my teeth a few years ago due to them killing me off and have new ones put in so heavy metals can hurt you once in a while.
captian niko
03-31-2011, 07:50 AM
I also have concerns about galvinized tanks, my 300 gln storage tank is about 30 years old and it does have a coupla small (quarter size) shiny spots.
I am definatly more concernd about plastic (remember the hype about nelgene bottles?) I use as little plastic as posible.
I'm thinking to build a wooden tank to replace the galvinized, I'm a boat builder so not concerned about leekage. My concern is with bacteria and cleaning. would a 1/20 bleach sulution before and after season be good or does eny one have sugestions?
I have considered coating my galvinized tank with epoxy sealer this is suposed to be food safe. it would work for the fellow who has galvinized bukets (epoxy needs to be coated if exposed to sunlight) any comments on epoxy?
happy thoughts
03-31-2011, 08:34 AM
I wouldn't use wood imho. Wood was the original standard and it's been replaced for good reason. It seems an excellent medium for bacterial growth. I can't see how you could ever really clean a wooden container. Because wood is porous, there's always going to be some residual sugar left in it. That's food for sap bacteria to grow on, especially if the container is damp in storage.
The bleach will kill any surface bacteria at the time of cleaning but new bacteria could grow there even after sanitizing. Bleach also seems likely to soak into the wood beyond the reach of a very good rinsing so I might also be worried about off flavors.
If you're that concerned and against plastic, maybe you should consider stainless.
captian niko
04-01-2011, 05:53 AM
thanks for the advice, stainless is expensive but would be great. my gathering tank is alluminum. would alluminum work for storage tank?
happy thoughts
04-01-2011, 07:07 AM
thanks for the advice, stainless is expensive but would be great. my gathering tank is alluminum. would alluminum work for storage tank?
Probably, but I'm the wrong person to ask being such a small home-use-only producer. They make aluminum sap collecting buckets so that would make it seem OK.
For long term storage the cons might be the potential for pitting and corrosion if the sap sours and turns acidic. You might end up with a metallic taste to your syrup. Also, I think there's an old myth about some relation between aluminum and Alzheimer's which I believe has been discredited, but right or wrong, some people still won't go anywhere near an aluminum cooking pot.
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