RO vs New Evap

[ADKMAPLE]

How do you know which is better to do? Would you invest in a larger evap from an existing one or invest in an ro?

Situiation:

Existing evap 2x6, currently tap 250.

Potential to tap 1000

Thoughts?

[mapleack]

It depends on how quickly you're going to add taps when you buy what, though I'd say both. :) I'd go for a bigger evaporator like a 2x8 or 30"x 8, add a couple hundred taps. Then add more taps and buy a small RO.

[Bucket Head]

I guess you would have to determine how long do you want your boiling sessions to be with the 2x6? There's nothing wrong with Andy's way of thinking. You will not dislike a larger evaporator, thats for sure. However, there are a handfull of users here that have 2x6's, an RO and over 1000 taps and do fine like that. But going back to the 2x6 and 250 taps, thats still going to be a long boil. I know because thats where I was! I just bought a used 160gph RO because that will allow me to do three things all at once. I will have shorter boil times for this season, I will save a fair amount of wood with less boiling and I will be able to add many taps down the road and still be ahead on the boiling time. I think you would gain more with the RO right now, but thats just my way of thinking. Maybe some others on here with comparative evaporators and tap counts will chime in and share what worked for them.

Steve

[SSFLLC]

ADKmaple i'm in the same boat as you are right now. I'm leaning the way of the RO first. Than when I get to the point that the boil time is to great. Bigger sugar shack and evaporator. I'm looking at in the next 2 or 3 years of having between 1500 and 2000 taps. Thats 500 more a year. so Ro to start for me. Happy boiling Keith

[Russell Lampron]

When I had to make that decision I went with the RO. I currently have over 700 taps and last season I concentrated and boiled almost 12,000 gallons of sap. I only used about 2 cords of wood to boil the concentrate and turn that weak 1.1% sap into 153 gallons of syrup. When it is time to upgrade again I am going to keep my evaporator and get a bigger RO.

When I decided to get the RO the choices were redesign and add on to the sugar house so that a bigger evaporator would fit and then purchase a bigger evaporator. The bigger evaporator was in the range of $10,000 for a 3x8 or 3x10 at the time. The cost of the sugar house remodel not figured in. My Lapierre 150gph RO cost $5055 brand new and it was about $500 to build a room for the RO, plumb it up and get it wired. The RO was the logical choice and the one that I am glad that I made. That was in 2004 so the prices are higher now.

[heus]

ADK I am in a similar situation. 2x6 currently tapping 331. I have about 1000 potential taps in our woods and probably 1400-1500 if I also tapped reds. After a 16 hour straight boiling session I have been thinking about a small RO. Interested in the Waterguys 2500 model. I would like to know how much it would cost to build my own RO. Not a Merlin, But a real maple RO. I have toyed with the idea of getting a bigger evaporator but like One Leg John once told me it is nice to have a smaller evaporator if for some reason I could only tap 100-200. My advice would be to get an RO.

[Brent]

The other option to consider is a Leader Steam-Away. They are pretty well liked by different folks that use them and they likely have the least maintenance and smallest impact on the sugar shack. They are about the same cost as a small RO but on a 2 x 6 the motor is only 1/3 Hp. The guys I bought my 30" x 8' from had one on it and when they upgraded to a new larger evaporator with Intensofire arch, they ordered a new bigger Steam-Away to go on it. The Steam-Away on the old one was dumping 100 gallons of 200 degree water an hour.

With the RO you need a new filter every day, a big tank to collect permeate for rinsing and caustic soda washes, a pH meter to get the strength of the caustic correct, about an hour to do a wash every 12 hours of running. about 20-30 minutes to do a rinse every 4 hours of running, a heated room so you don't freeze the membranes and a big enough power supply for 4 to 5 Hp total load ... a bit over 15 amps of 220.

Just another option to confuse the issues.

[tuckermtn]

RO hands down...

[wiam]

I have about 900 taps a mason drop tube 2x6 and a very old memtech 225 ro. Last year I made 425 gallons and did not boil more than 5 hrs most nights. I had always said I would get a steam away before an ro (less power, less maintenance, no worry about freezing in off season) Push came to shove at begining of season last year and I went with ro. Now I look back and would not change. The ro will still fit if I get a 2x8 and I think an ro will hold it's value better than a steam away.

William

[danno]

So - I guess the question is - can you find a producer who went over to an RO who will say, shucks, I made a bad decision - I should have gone to a larger evaporator/steamaway/max flue pan, etc instead of the RO. Doubtful;)

2nd year on the RO and loving it! Both in reduction of wood consumption and boiling time. I love to boil, but with a family and a full time job, I get my boil fix from a 3 hour as opposed to a 12 hour boil.

[Maple Hobo]

Go with the RO. Look at the fuel costs VS RO... it will be the RO.

[maplwrks]

ADK--RO all the way! I think you could run 2000 taps on your 2x6 with a 600 gph RO. I considered a larger evaporator a couple of years ago when it looked like I might get a couple thousand more taps. I found, that I like the way everything is set up in my sugarhouse, and it would require some serious reconstruction. By expanding the RO, I was able to handle all of the sap I wanted and didn't have many long boils. I have handled as much as 5600 taps on my evaporator with my RO.

[Maple Hobo]

The RO can reduce a 10 hour cook down to 5 or 4 hours for a fraction of the space. You would need 2 or more evaporators running at the same time to get close.

Just realize that the concentrate will come off a LOT faster from your evaporator.
It will also jump up to foam and let your pan(s) scorch is you run it too shallow.

If used, you will need adjust your floats and drop sensor until you get it remastered.
Concentrate cooks a bit differnt then raw sap.

[Mike N RI]

I would say RO if you can get a decent price. We have 300-400 taps, a 2x5 drop flue. and a 100GPH RO that works on 110V and doesn't need a warm room. The RO reduces the 100 gallons per hour to about 30 gallons of concentrate. It doubles the sugar content (2% becomes 4.25%) and we can recycle the 4.25% if we wish to 9%+ The evaporator boils off 30 GPH (used to do 25GPH but with higher sugar% it does 5GPH faster) so as a result we can process 100GPH on a 2x5 evaporator withj this set up. We use 1/3 of the wood, boil 500 gals in 5 hours--not 20hours, and make much lighter syrup!

[Jim Brown]

My suggestion would be an RO.I know they are pricey but if you figure your time is worth anything they will pay for them selves in fuel(weather wood or fuel oil) in a year or two. Also you will be able to sleep some in between.We run around 14-1500 taps with a 2x6 and a steamaway and RO. Longest boil this year has been 6 hours with 1300 gallon of sap. We concentrate to 7-8% on one pass.

Our two cents
Jim

[DaveB]

I've thought about this myself and I think I would go with the RO because it is something that I can add to me equipment line no matter what I have. Long time ago I decide that I wanted to stick with the 2x6 frame because it seemed the most efficient size to me. I manage 600 taps fine on it and I've never had a really long boil. I just shut down for the day and start the next day!

I have another 600 or so taps that I can add and I've thought about how I would manage that. A Steamaway would probably get me about 90GPH. However, 10% sap concentrate from an RO on a evaporator giving me 50+GPH now is way more than 90GPH for about the same amount of money. I'd keep the 2x6...you'll use less wood and I calculated once that you should be able to handle around 3,000 taps with a Max pan, Steamaway and an RO.

I'm liking what I hear about the Waterguys ROs...good prices and (from what it sounds) better equipment made in the USA.

Dave

[mtcrumpit]

I am in the same dilemma. Leaning towards an RO and watching the posts for the waterguys ROs. I have read a couple of posts about buying a 2x8. I have one and I would not recommend that size to any one. reason being, remember my opinion only, is the fire box is too small. When I boil the back end (about 1.5 feet)of the flue pan doesn't boil, almost like it too long for the fire. I've added air, reduced air you name it. Now I have added bricks at the end near the flue to precisely control the opening, I made it the same area as the stack, at the end before it drops to the flue. I have limited the clearence between the pan and the arch. To me the rig seems like a glorified 2 x 6. With that said the workmanship is flawless. If you are going to spend your money at least get a 2.5 x 8. good luck to all this season

[Ozy]

What do users of RO do with the waste water? Wondering if it is pure H2O that could be bottled for $1 gal.

[mapleack]

What do users of RO do with the waste water? Wondering if it is pure H2O that could be bottled for $1 gal.

It gets saved to rinse the membranes with.

[SUGARBROOKMAPLE]

as long as you have an evaporator that is in good shape and is reliable i would go with the r/0 there great gives me extra time to pay attention to details in the sap house that would be over looked to get boiling now i attend to those details while the r/o is running then liesurely fire up the evaporator and get ready to handle lots of syrup quickly

[OhioMapleMan]

Go with the RO, I have a Lapierre Jr 200 gph and have not regretted buying it. This is our second year with this machine and have been processing sap from 300 taps on a drop flue 2 x 6 with steam hoods & Inferno arch. Drop off the first load (210 gallons of sap) and start the RO before going out to gather again. I may do this three times depending on the run. Also cuts down on the amount of sap storage that is needed. I check the RO before going out again or up to the house to eat dinner with my wife which has been nice for a change. The machines are so consistent on there performance you just need to keep track of time and it will be very close to the brix you want, just check the sap brix before you start and divide it out.

[Dill]

I was thinking about this last night. I built my sugarhouse wrong. It fits a 2x6 perfectly. But that's it. I could go to a 2x5 x8 but I would have to stand outside to load wood. And I can't swing the evap against the far wall cause it would be the same issue.
I know that ROs are great but honestly it seems complicated to me. I think I'd like the steamaway, but the issue is you never see them used. So while I know they'll hold their value, I'll have to pay full retail which is 5k, where as you can find decent used ROs.

[MapleMouse]

I would say RO if you can get a decent price. We have 300-400 taps, a 2x5 drop flue. and a 100GPH RO that works on 110V and doesn't need a warm room. The RO reduces the 100 gallons per hour to about 30 gallons of concentrate. It doubles the sugar content (2% becomes 4.25%) and we can recycle the 4.25% if we wish to 9%+ The evaporator boils off 30 GPH (used to do 25GPH but with higher sugar% it does 5GPH faster) so as a result we can process 100GPH on a 2x5 evaporator withj this set up. We use 1/3 of the wood, boil 500 gals in 5 hours--not 20hours, and make much lighter syrup!
Mike - it sounds like a good thing that your RO does not need to be in a warm room, can you provide details on the unit?

[brookledge]

One thing that I didn't see mentioned is what is your pans made with.If you have lead solder or tin pans and considering expanding then I'd either get a larger evaporator or new welded stainless pans then the next expansion look at the RO.
When Uncle Sam finally says everyone needs to be inspected and food grade materials in every part of production you don't want to be the last one holding it
Keith

[3rdgen.maple]

Am I the last old school thinking guy on this site? To me part of the fun of producing syrup is making syrup. An RO to me is cheating the process, I said this once before and I will say it again but it to me would be like going out fishing and you hook the world record fish and the darn thing is almost dead and gives you no fight and you sit there and just reel it in, or it would be like the biggest buck of your dreams just walked out in front of your shooting lane and just as you draw the bow back it falls over dead. Okay so yeah to me its cheating the whole process but I dont frown upon you guys using them they just are not going to find a way into my sugarhouse. I will be the last old school sugarmaker and will advertise the heck out of that when the day arrives and outsell all you maple producers lol. So incase nobody figured it out yet I would with out a second thought get a bigger evaporator, not only is it much more impressive to me and visitors it is alot more fun than watching one tank empty and look over and see another one fill up half as full as the first one.

[802maple]

I guess it all comes down to whether you are in this to make money or you are in it just for the hobby of making syrup, it is as simple as that. I too, can be as old school as the next, if I want to just make syrup. I hate hoods, would rather filter my syrup thru flat filters and not a filter press, and love buckets, having said this though if I am going to make any money at this then I will have to a RO, have pipeline atleast, and use a filter press so as to speed up the process.
The RO means I only have to use 20 percent of the fuel I would use and it allows me to be in the woods more where the money is made anyway, pipeline means I don't have to have a tractor and gathering tanks plus the labor gather them and the filter press will push the syrup thru faster to the barrel because of you making more per hour. I know this post is a little off the subject, but it is also things to think about.

[green4310]

802
Well said!!

[Kev]

As "just a hobbiest" I can not see continuing without using an RO.
after this season running at 80 to 1 for 3/4 of the season, combined with 3.50
fuel. I for one will never look askance at an RO system again. Its not like it means you do not boil and make steam and draw of that delectable golden goodness. You just do it in a more practical way.
Last night I totaled up the fuel for the sap hauler(dads PU) 265.00+ over 800 in fuel for the evap.(I boiled for about 20 hours on a vegi oil mix to finish the season out or it would have been higher yet)
thats not counting the propane to bottle. or the cost of the jugs. I made right at 24 gallon. I can not sell syrup, so for a hobby this borders on insanity. when fuel oil was 1.25 it was not so bad. but those days are gone forever I am sure.

But to each their own I say.
Yet it seems(to me) if you are so "traditional" that you scoff at an RO do you feel the same about a vac system? if not why? both are the same, your are using modern technology to be more effiecient and increase productivity.

[Dill]

I scoffed at vacuum until I tried it. I'm sold on vac now.
I didn't understand RO until I was dropping a load of sap off at Amber Gold's SH, and instead of running around like a chicken with his head cut off trying to boil. He was just making the sap sweeter.
I'm sold on the RO. Now I just need to find the money.

[Maplewalnut]

To add to Dill's post

As a first generation sugarmaker in a non traditional sugaring area who boiled on a flat pan...

I couldn't understand the hype about a raised flue evaporator with hood,preheater and blower... until I got one
didnt believe vacuum could increase your sap that much...until I added it
I balked at an RO as too pricey and not worth it...until I got one

I maintain my traditional side by putting out buckets every year and I still love the sight when they are overflowing, otherwise I am happy to add more improved methods and equipment where I can and as money permits

[sapsick]

i certainly would not knock anyone for improving their setups going bigger faster stronger and such. much the same as watching a shiny new sports car blister by at top speed. i think stuff like that is cool to watch but my heart still flutters at the site of a classic hot rod!!
you can see this separation building between ROd and non getting bigger by the ads be posted on places like Craigslist. fellas like myself are going to need every edge to sell our product when we cant produce as much as someone who has an RO.
just think if you guys with ROs make enough of it cheap enough maybe you can get your own shelf at Walmart!! Just kidding to each his own in whatever they do but you wont find me tending one. not my style.

[danno]

Even for the hobbiest, boiling concentrated sap is just plain fun. Even on my 3x10, before the RO I was drawing just over a gallon an hour. And before the 3x10, back over the outside arch, is was a 1/2 gallon/day. So, boil, boil, boil, draw, wait, wait, wait, draw. Nothing wrong with that, I loved those days too, and they were less complicated.

No doubt the fuel and time savings of an RO are enourmous, but aside from that, I really like continously drawing 5-10 gallons an hour. The syrup just keeps coming off.

[Kev]

I scoffed at vacuum until I tried it. I'm sold on vac now.
I didn't understand RO until I was dropping a load of sap off at Amber Gold's SH, and instead of running around like a chicken with his head cut off trying to boil. He was just making the sap sweeter.
I'm sold on the RO. Now I just need to find the money.


right now you can pick up 100 gpd(thats at 50 psi they will take much more)membranes for 28 bucks, housings for 10 bucks each. add a prefilter and a pump some fittings and hose.
pick up four of them. that will give you 50 gph of concentrate give or take.
and I bet you have less than 300 bucks in the whole system.
this can be set up how ever you want. from 1 pass through to 4 passes in one.
just one guys opinion

[Kev]

i certainly would not knock anyone for improving their setups going bigger faster stronger and such. much the same as watching a shiny new sports car blister by at top speed. i think stuff like that is cool to watch but my heart still flutters at the site of a classic hot rod!!
you can see this separation building between ROd and non getting bigger by the ads be posted on places like Craigslist. fellas like myself are going to need every edge to sell our product when we cant produce as much as someone who has an RO.
just think if you guys with ROs make enough of it cheap enough maybe you can get your own shelf at Walmart!! Just kidding to each his own in whatever they do but you wont find me tending one. not my style.

I think if I were in the bussiness. I would not be undercutting my neighbors that do not RO. I would be investing the extra profit from the additional income :D plenty of "market" out there it seems. how many people that actually do this for income are still sitting on last years product.? not counting personal stash!;)
Who knows I might feel completely the same as you Sap if I lived where firewood for the arch could come out of the woods Im tapping. :D

[3rdgen.maple]

Like I said I dont frown upon anyone using an RO. Its there choice and if it works for them that is great. It is just not for me. I like to have a few hundred buckets to keep the tradition of them going, I like my vac as well cause it brings me more sap. I like to boil and its the best part for me. I like big shiny evaporators. Between camp and my home I have over 175 acres of woods so the cost of wood is little, Profit heck yeah I make money every year after expenses. I also dont use the profit for anything other than improvements and upgrades. If I didnt make enough for the whatever I want I wait till the following year. No loans no beg,barrow ,or stealing. Its the way I like it and the way I keep growing little by little. I also like no hoods and a steam filled sugarhouse but if the 2013 deal takes effect then that is gone as well. I like the challenge of having too much sap and long nights and hard work. Theres too much tech and too many shortcuts and too much of a fast paced world for any of it to be in my sugarhouse. It just plain nice to leave that stuff behind for a few weeks out of the year and enjoy some good old hard traditional work. Go ahead guys pick away lol.

[Bucket Head]

3rdGen,

Whats the 2013 deal that you mentioned? I must have missed the memo. Thanks.

Steve

[3rdgen.maple]

I will have to dig back to earlier in the year but I think it was in a note sent from a packer I believe stating some changes that are in the thought process begining for 2013 to be able to sell bulk syrup. It was mentioned that a hood was required. My mind is starting to slip but I remeber making a phone call about it and the thought was that steam rising and then dripping back in the pans was a no no. Dirt and other crap like mold in the rafters dripping back in the pans. I had to chuckle cause I was trying to figure out what dirt or mold could withstand the temps that the sap reaches and cause any ill effects but what the heck do I know I dont like RO's LOL.

[Bucket Head]

I sort of remember hearing, or reading something about what packers were going to start looking for. I did'nt know if that was binding or if was a "wish list" type of thing. Is this an industry wide thing or something unique to just one of the producing states? I do know VT will not allow galv. barrels, starting in 2012 if I remember correctly.

Anyone out there know what the rules, or proposed rules are? Just curious.

Steve

[802maple]

Yes there will be changes forth coming, when I am not sure. These changes are going to be mostly due to the fact that packers are being looked at more and more under the microscope of their clients. These people are demanding that because the product we love is a food product that it meets a certain criteria in the process of making it. The belief (whether it is wrong or right) that my Dad and grandfather did it this way, so it has to be right, will be a thing of the past. Do I believe in all of this, not in anyway, but it is the world we live in today and if we want to continue to sell our product, it is reality. The packers are several times a year being audited by all of these huge companies that sell our product, the insurance companies that insure the packers, and of course the health departments of both federal and state governments. I started saying 15 to 20 years ago that someday we would be headed the same way that the dairy industry with atleast annual inspections and the results of that would most likely put some sugarmakers out of business. I was basically laughed at in the beginning, but now it approaches us. Like I have said in the past I don't agree with everything that is being listed as requirements, but most of it is good common sense.

[Bucket Head]

Jerry- Is there a list of proposed requirements anywhere? I agree that there should be some requirements since we are making a food product. However, it would be a shame if some folks had to call it quits because the rules end up being too strict or "over the top", so to speak.

Steve

[802maple]

Yes, Steve, If you go to the maple business section, I just brought the list up under, "Coming to all of us soon atleast Vermont"

[Bucket Head]

Yes, I saw your post about it. Thanks Jerry.

Steve