economics of syrup production

[Capthook]

hello all...

I am planning on getting into syrup production and I have been reviewing the NA Maple Syrup Producers Manual... In it they state that will require over 10,000 taps to generate enough profit to sustain a single family. to me this seems very high.

in my cash flow estimates, a decent income can be had with 2000 to 3000 taps - much less than 10,000 mentioned in the manual - Am I missing something?

Your thoughts? Advice?

take care

capthook

[3rdgen.maple]

Yeah the price of equipment. It goes up and up every year. There are quite a few guys on here with more than 2 to 3000 taps and they have a job outside of maple. There are cost that may be overlooked like containers or bulk ss drums, electricity, oil if not using wood, fuel for tractor and gathering equipment,filters, filter papers, de it all adds up and fast, tubing, mainlines wire,taps,Y's,T's it goes on and on. Not to mention the wanted upgrades to be more efficeint. Oh lets not forget it is totaly dependant on mother nature as well.

[spud]

capthook,

I to am looking to get back into sugaring after being away from it for over 20 years. Sugaring has changed for the better over the years and i see more opportunity then ever before. When people tell you the price of equipment is very high they are telling you the truth. Although they forget to tell you there are GREAT DEALS on used equipment everywhere. Your pipeline will cost you 6-7 dollars a tap so your 3000 tap woods will be around $18,000-$21,000 to set up. All other equipment should be bought used. So many sugarmakers are wanting the new and shiny stuff and are selling their used equipment at great prices. The sugarmakers that really know what they are doing will tell you the money is made in the woods. Dr. Tim has said that CVs with high vac is the way to go and i believe him. The strive for 5 taps per lateral is another thing he has mentioned along with the right size mainline. As for equipment in the sugarhouse start out used until you make some money. I think a used RO would be a great investment and a time saver. The sugarwoods i am looking to buy has about 2000-3000 taps and i plan on spending between $40,000-$50,000 for total set-up cost. In the last 7 years Dr.Tim has made .5-.7 gallons of syrup per tap at the PMRC. I plan on setting my woods up the same way they do (follow the leader). I see no reason why you and i could not make 1500+ gallons per year on a 3000 tap woods. That would make you $50,000 in bulk syrup sales. I am a man with no ego at all. I plan to take advise from people like Dr.Tim so i can make the most out of my woods. Good luck to you. :)

[Flat Lander Sugaring]

Well here's my few pennies I still have in my pocket.
Lets say the 3000 taps is all on vacuum. I beleive that would be 3000gal syrup on a good year. It all sells at bulk rate 33000 LBS of syrup @ guessing 2.35 a LB. Total gross $77,550. Equip. and all that I couldn't even begin to guess.

10000 x 11 = 110000 x 2.35 = $258500

Please anybody with more to offer love to hear it

[maplwrks]

I think you're dreaming---most producers strive for a 1/2 gallon per tap. I honestly doubt that you could get that much out of a tap. Going on your #s-that would only be about $35000-your equipment and other incidentals= maybe a good vacation for your family!

[paul]

This is how i see it. If you want to make a living out of maple you need to sell retail, put up a website,find stores to sell to wholesale. To make a living you have to sugar full time.But don`t think you can just start sugaring and make a living out of it right off, it all takes time and patients,AND MONEY. I agree used equiptment is the way to go. At least it works for me.We are sugaring 13 years and have built our hobby into 1000gal of sales a year. So it can be done on 3000 taps and don`t let anyone tell you it can`t.

[sniperdodo]

Just to throw it out there but no one has mentioned sales tax and income tax either. In Canada I would estimate that at least 40% of your generated income would go towards income tax, general sales tax, tax on your land and probably tax on your tax just because. It would ruin an operation in 1 season if you happened to forget about the good ol' tax man.

[doocat]

The last thing that no one has mentioned is WEATHER. If you don't have it you don't have syrup. Alot of people remenber last year!

My answer to everyone about the maple season is "It's farming!"

Just my two cents.

[Dill]

Which is why I could never imagine making money solely on maple. Or at least solely on manufacturing of maple. I have another "producer" in town who buys in 95% of their product so they can sell all year.
If you have a bad march and april that's all she wrote folks. If I have a bad June haying I can still make some in aug-nov.

[maplwrks]

I think you could also make a living at it if your wife was making 60K a year!!

[Flat Lander Sugaring]

I think you're dreaming---most producers strive for a 1/2 gallon per tap. I honestly doubt that you could get that much out of a tap. Going on your #s-that would only be about $35000-your equipment and other incidentals= maybe a good vacation for your family!

well mike I was just going off of what some one said if you run vac. you get 1 gal syrup per tap instead of 1 quart on a gravity system. At this point thats what I know.

[Flat Lander Sugaring]

Just to throw it out there but no one has mentioned sales tax and income tax either. In Canada I would estimate that at least 40% of your generated income would go towards income tax, general sales tax, tax on your land and probably tax on your tax just because. It would ruin an operation in 1 season if you happened to forget about the good ol' tax man.

CASH!!! Baby CASH

[ennismaple]

10,000 taps may be right - I certainly couldn't live off the income from our 4,000 taps. By the time you pay for fuel, electricity, insurance, equipment, labour, consumables, etc... the profit margin is narrower tha you might think.

Not many of us get to the numbers that Dr Tim produces at over 1/2 gallon per tap. I'd recommend you work out a business plan at between 1 and 1.5 quarts per tap at $2.50/lb and take any income above and beyond as gravy.

[Oddmott]

Just to throw it out there but no one has mentioned sales tax and income tax either. In Canada I would estimate that at least 40% of your generated income would go towards income tax, general sales tax, tax on your land and probably tax on your tax just because. It would ruin an operation in 1 season if you happened to forget about the good ol' tax man.

Hey sniperdodo... not a bad point to make, but the positive is that there are TONS of way for smaller producers to dodge around the taxman without too much fuss. A good bookkeeper and some friends at a local farmers' market should be able to give anyone a ton of advice to keep the taxes low.

[Oddmott]

Dragging this one from the depths of time ;)

Just an update on what you can do with 4000 taps and some business savvy - Fulton's Pancake House & Sugar Bush. http://www.fultons.ca/

This single family owned & operated sugar bush isn't just supporting one family, it's supporting THREE and also providing jobs for 15+ non-relatives.

Don't let anyone tell you that 10,000 taps are required to be profitable. But the points that it takes time and money are absolutely valid.

[jmayerl]

4000taps*.5 gallons per tap(very good year on high vacuum) comes to 2000 gallons syrup produced on a very good year. Lets say its all sold in smaller bottles at a retail avg of $60/gallon. That comes to$120000. Now factor out bottles and processing costs and I bet it will be down about 15k. Sure you can make some cream and sugar and get better money for it. This all gives a little fudge factor either way. Now pay some seasonal help and your are down some more. I'm not sure about everyone else but that would be hard for 3 family's to live on. Now I would love to hear the economics of it straight from the horses mouth but I would be extremely skeptical of it being possible without any outside income. What happens on the bad years then when production is cut in half or even more?

[Oddmott]

They've expanded their business beyond simple syrup production. They have family activities which they charge for (horse sleigh rides, face painting, sugaring courses, cooking w/ maple syrup & sugar courses, gift shop items) and an 80 seat logging camp style "restaurant" where they charge $12 for 2x pancakes, 2x sausages & a small spoon of beans.

They make a pile of money and their average customer returns 8 times per year. That's better than most big-chain restaurants manage.

Like i said... 4000 taps + business savvy goes a loooooooong way. ;)

Now, if all you want to do is sugar... that's a different story.

[FunnyFarm]

I would say any good business plan would never count on only one egg...I mean if you have the land for 4k taps then you have the land for alot of other things to...We only do a few hundred taps here on our farm and that number gets bigger every year. I've only had one break even year for syrup every other was a small profit but still a profit...Now I couldn't live on it. but we keep a flock of sheep have a pretty large patch of asparagus, keep bees grow something to sell every year, add in the wood shop and a couple of off farm projects every year and we do just fine... Now if one would want to do nothing but syrup....10k taps might be right but heck its a long year and syrup only takes a few months I'd get bored and find me something else to do...

[unc23win]

I am with Funny Farm about the rest of the land. I have a sugar bush that will be at 1500 taps this year and its not even 20 acres of my 360 acre farm. I raise beef cattle, have a horse business baording, training, riding lessons and such, sell hay, and do some oats. As far as the number of taps to sustain a family well I think a lot of it depends on the life style of family, but many people like the family Oddmott mentioned make it work. Spragues in Portville NY is another example built the big resturant as an expansion of a maple operation I think it was half a million and paid it off in half the time the loan was for.

As far as equipment maybe starting with used is a good start but seems like the ROs keep getting better and better at getting the Brix up and the evaporators keep getting more efficient. I look at that just like I do farm equipment. I fugure if I can buy a brand new tractor or baler or something and pay it off in 5 or 6 years I can do the same with the maple equipment and lets face it the farming equipment has a tougher time making money.

I also agree with Spud set everything up to get maximum sap yield use the research and experience and expertise of others and learn from it.

[jmayerl]

My point being this thread is about syrup production as a full time business. I would certainly expect if all these extra incomes are added that you can make it but this is about syrup, not a farm or a pancake house business.

[Oddmott]

Yeah, I understand that.

But to me, a pancake house and a sugarbush attraction to the public IS part of sugaring, if you want it to be.

For some, it may not be, and I can understand that. But, if you only have 200 acres and 4000 taps, and you want to make a living at it, you have to get creative.

[FunnyFarm]

eh even the bigger producer's around me do other stuff...I'm not sure that one could use good business plan in the same sentence with only doing something that last at max 3 months out of the year and ever have it make sense.

[Tweegs]

Way too many variables to say X number of taps would provide a decent living.

Each producer’s situation is unique.

I may be able to get $60 per gallon in my area, but you may only be able to get $45, yet your $45 goes farther than my $60.

Cost of living and tax liabilities are different in every location.

Is your supplier 1 mile down the road or do you have to ship everything in from 500 miles away?

This is agriculture, you have to expect and plan for crop failure. Do you have a policy or are you self insured?

What do you pay for seasonal help in your area and how does that compare to help in neighboring counties and states?

Do you own the property or have it mortgaged? What about your equipment?

What amount of annual income are you willing to live on?

Do you have 10,000 taps in silvers that yield 1.5% or 10,000 taps in sugars that yield 3.5%?

Maybe you were savvy early on and put all of your net profits in IRA’s or other investments and now you can use that as supplemental income. Isn’t that technically making a living off maple? Would you need as many taps?

Given the above, each producer is going to have a different number of taps that would satisfy their expectations. There is no “one size fits all”.

I think the better question would be: How many taps would it take for you to be self sufficient?

[Oddmott]

Awesome response Tweegs, there's definitely many different factors to consider, that will differentiate one producer from another, even if they're only separated by a few hundred yards.

Being as new to running my own operation as I am, I hadn't even considered most of those points yet. It'll be years (possibly a decade) before I can get our place to the point that it's making any sort of reliable income.

[ennismaple]

They've expanded their business beyond simple syrup production. They have family activities which they charge for (horse sleigh rides, face painting, sugaring courses, cooking w/ maple syrup & sugar courses, gift shop items) and an 80 seat logging camp style "restaurant" where they charge $12 for 2x pancakes, 2x sausages & a small spoon of beans.

They make a pile of money and their average customer returns 8 times per year. That's better than most big-chain restaurants manage.

Like i said... 4000 taps + business savvy goes a loooooooong way. ;)

Now, if all you want to do is sugar... that's a different story.

The Fulton (Duego) family is excellent at marketing their business and making value added maple products. Shirley has come up with many innovative uses for maple. Some weekends their pancake house is so busy there are lines to get in and no room in their parking lot - a good problem to have! They have done many TV spots on local morning shows to advertise their business. If you want to make a living from maple they have set a very good example.

FYI - Scott Duego is also a firefighter.

[unc23win]

you[/U] to be self sufficient?

I agree with Tweegs as well there are lots of factors. I would count a resturaunt that starts from the Maple Syrup productiuon as the same because its just another way of making sales and the sales probably are pretty high by the gallon if you think about it.

I suppose it is a nice thought that you might be able to make all of your living in selling Syrup alone it probably is possible, but certainly not just for 3 months a year. Although I think in the right situation it can be done. Most people who do the Maple thing arent the sit around type so they will most likely have other things going. For me I think it would be safe to say that I am planning on making most of my living starting in the next few years doing the maple thing and as Tweegs mentioned I already have other things in the works. I view it as a farm thing and Syrup will be the #1 crop most likely.

[Red-bellied Woodpecker]

I agree with some of you guys...there is a lot of factors. A family with 1 kid needs a lot less money then a family with 3-4 kids. Also how much are you selling your syrup for. Myself I'm planning to get to a 1000 gal operation and I know I can sell 500gal at $100 gal as I do that now and the rest at $45-$55 which isn't bad but if I sold it all at bulk price it wouldn't be to great. Also to stay in it you need to be smart with your money so when a bad year hits it won't break you but get more then one bad year in a row you may have to step away from it as a full time job for a year or two. I would rather work my butt off for 6 weeks or so and spend the rest of the year enjoying my bees, fishing, hunting, going to all the farmers markets that I go to, and a list of other things....no time for me to get bored

[maple flats]

I think the answer is basically "more than we have", however many that is. Most of the personal lifestyle of each producer has huge differences. We produce between 60-70% of the produce we consume, We buy very little meat (I shoot deer every year and we eat that). Our houses are all pd for (We rent out 2) The sugarhouse is pd for as is every piece of equipment. I expect to have about 1400 taps when all is said and done. The maple operation does not even pay for itself yet. I had to add from my "regular" job income to do my maple expansion. Last year (poor year) I made 233 gal of syrup on 1100 taps. I retailed over 90%, sold about 8% to resellers and I only have a grand total of 6 gal of syrup on hand, counting 4 gal of B. I sold nothing at bulk prices.
Now if I had an average season (about .35 gal/tap so far), I'd have made about 385 gal. That might not have all sold retail, but I'd have certainly done much better. For fast cash, if needed I could have sold bulk. I prefer to keep improving my retail sales. If you can sell everything at retail and don't have to pay too much for fees to do so (farmers mkts etc charge a fee) and can keep your labor costs reasonable, you will get there faster. I think my number would be about 7-8,000 taps. However I plan to stop expanding at about 2000 to maybe 2500.

[Thad Blaisdell]

The main question was for syrup production. I believe that you would need to make 2500 gallons and that being sold at bulk price to make a living. Now comes all the variables. bottling and candy and such, to me that is a secondary feature of sugaring as anyone can buy bulk and do the same thing. But to make a living on just syrup production, that is the number of gallons that you would need. Roughly $80,000, half back to sh, and the rest for you.

[325abn]

$12 for 2 pancakes, 2 sausage and a few beans!! And people come back a second time?

[Oddmott]

$12 for 2 pancakes, 2 sausage and a few beans!! And people come back a second time?

Yeah, I had sticker shock for sure when mine & my wife's breakfasts came out to $27 before tips. But, that was as soon as we'd arrived and hadn't enjoyed much of the atmosphere yet. After hanging out with the Fulton's crew for the day and enjoying the ambiance they create, and sharing our sugaring passions, it was easier for me to understand why they have such an impressive repeat customer rate.

[325abn]

I suppose if they where plate sized pancakes and two big suasage patties with all the maple you wanted it would be ok.

I can remember when Bascoms had a pancake house way back in the 80s. What ever ahppened to the 80s? :)

[Red-bellied Woodpecker]

Also the start up cost can be diffrent for everyone. How much to put up your shack, if you start with buckets the cost for those, your pan and arch, and if you need land to tap. Also I think there is a diffreance in what one needs vs what one wants when it come to starting up. What I mean from that is for me my syrup shack cost nothing outside of the cement for the flooring because I already had everything around, I was able to get all the buckets for free along with 1000 that I sold and used that money to buy my pans, my dad was able to build my arch from a stove and gun case he had for the cost of a few beers, and already had the land. What I meant by what you need vs what you want is do you have to have a RO right away, filter press right away, and so on. I think one can start without those things to start with but just work a little longer and harder to start with then slowly add things to make things better for you when you can affored to....that way you can keep a high profit off the get go.

[maple2]

50 years ago I started off with one tree and two coffee cans. Today we are at 4000 taps. We retail over 1000 gal. of syrup a year. Every year our gross looks better, our net...not quite as good. The more we make the more we seem to spend on expansions and improvements. We're almost making a living on maple. I guess it's knowing when to stop expanding. Picked up a new sugar bush for next year. More tubing, new vac pump, larger holding tanks, etc.. Maybe in two years we'll stop expanding.

[Mark]

That is the same situation I am in. When I have both, no expansion and a good season I will make good money. That is if the economy does not get worse or the price of bulk does not drop.

[Clarkfield Farms]

I suppose if they where plate sized pancakes and two big suasage patties with all the maple you wanted it would be ok.

I can remember when Bascoms had a pancake house way back in the 80s. What ever ahppened to the 80s? :)

They went chasin' after the 70's. :D

[Brent]

$12 for 2 pancakes, 2 sausage and a few beans!! And people come back a second time?

yeh and some folks drive 3 hours to get there.

[Oddmott]

Wow, as if I wasn't already impressed with some of the medium-large Eastern Ontario Syrup Producers (their operations and their morals). But over the past 2 days I've had 2 of them (Fultons is one) offer me an absolute windfall of free sugaring gear.

Enough collection gear to eliminate any financial risk I'd face tapping my small bush (<300 taps) for the next couple seasons. Such great people, such an amazing opportunity.

[ennismaple]

Such great people.

I 100% agree!

[spud]

That's just neighbor helping neighbor and that's the way it should be. It's a shame the whole world does not operate that way.

Spud