Lookin' for some help

[Lance]

Howdy, All - I've been helping a buddy sugar for a couple of years and have got the bug bad. Try to make a long story short: buddy's one of the nicest guys you'd ever want to meet but he's got a full-time job and a dozen other irons in the fire. Bottom line is that sugaring stuff always seems to end up a day late and a dollar short. We've got about 400 taps, 200 on tubing (gravity), 200 on buckets. We wanta go with vacuum this year and switch the buckets to vacuum and run another 100 or so taps. We've got a 2x6 D&G woodfired evaporator with a hood and a preheater (which I don't think is performing anywhere near what it should be).

I've not seen anyone else's setup (since I was a kid, anyway) and would like to tap (yeah, I know) some of the experience and knowledge I've seen on this board. If there's anyone within a couple of hours drive of Central Vermont (negotiable) that's willing to help educate a greenhorn and share their expertise, I'd sure appreciate a chance to have a look at your rigs.

A P.S. to Brandon: has your little one arrived yet? Got a little concerned reading your posts of last spring about the wife's health. Hope all is well with you and yours!

Lance

[GregMVT]

Hi Lance Good to see another Vermonter. Not sure what you consider centratl Vt. I am in Poultney, a little west of Rutland. If you're interested I'd be more than happy to show you. I've only been tapping for a couple of years so still learning too. Let me know and I'll send you directions and phone #

Greg

[sweetwoodmaple]

Lance - welcome to Maple Trader.

I just sold my 2x6 D&G, which I ran for three years. It was a 7" drop flue model. With a wood saver, but not preheater or hood, I was getting 35-40 gph. I'm sure there are lots of guys who can help up in your neck of the woods.

Take Care - Brian

[mapleman3]

Lance, if your ever around 2 1/2 hrs south of you in Ma. your welcome to drop by my place :lol: wish I was closer I would love to see what you have and talk maple, your at the right place to gain knowledge of anything maple, alot of the guys here have been doing this a long time and some of us not as long, but you'll find that you'll learn fast here. ask as many questions as you can, and definately visit some of the mapletraders for visual knowledge, I can't think of 1 person here that wouldn't like to show his(or hers) setup.
like I said your welcome at our place.

[NH Maplemaker]

Lance,I'm located across the river from Windsor VT in Cornish,NH. I know it's not Vermont! But we do things about the same way!!! I'm retired and would be glad to show our operation. Just give me a shout. Send me a PM.

[Sugarmaker]

Lance,
These guys on this web site could talk you through just about every aspect of making syrup. But if your like me you have to do it yourself or have a good teacher to show you some tricks. Your neighbor sounds a lot like someone I know too. Thats why I now have my own sugarhouse.

First thing I would check is the factory recommended rate of boil for your rig? I Think you are getting close to the capicity of your rig 50 gallons per hour may be tops?. Brian notes 35-40 GPH on his rig. And if you have good trees a 600 gallon run on 400 taps is about average, you may be getting more sap on vacuum?.
Thats 12 hours of boiling time using my crude math. Have you been spending that much time boiling? Sounds like you have most of the other basics down. 400 to 500 taps requires one of you to have your act together.
I would look at the rig size first. Yes there could be many other small items that can increase the capicity. Like stack height. good dry wood.
Does it boil at a constant rolling boil in all portions of the pans? If it does the old girl is doing all it can. If it is only simmering then the rig needs some tuning.

Making sap boil is not that though. Think of this maple thing like drag racing. A 4 cylinder Rambler will get down the track but a tuned dragster will do it fast.

Keep asking questions some one here will have the answer for you.

[Lance]

God()*&*&&^%^%$((&^** it!! I spent hours writing replies to everyone's posts, you know, real witty, clever and all that. Then I lost the whole **** thing in cyberspace!! Here's the stripped down version.

Greg - I want to see and hear about your steamaway and how it works out for an operation our size. Don't get over that way very often but next time I do, I'll get in touch and see if we can get together.

Brian - What's a wood saver? That's a term I've not heard of, yet. How in the world did you ever get 35-40 gph out of a 2x6 evaporator?? Was it blown? Looks like you got a really sweet (ouch) operation down there. Haven't been down PA way for a while but you never know where this bug's gonna take ya.

Jim- Thanks for the invite! My dad lives in southern NH; I can crash there on my way down to or back from your place.Curious about how you like oil vs. wood on your 2x6. We're thinking of using a DeLaval pump on our vacuum system so I'll pick your brain about that. Will let you know when I'm gonna be down that way and see if we can work something out.

Maplemaker - I really wanta see how you've got your vacuum rigged up. I've ben thinking about putting in a UV filter - need the benefit of your experience. You're only a short haul (hour and a half) so I can make it over to your spread easy. I PMed you about getting together.

Anyway, thanks to all for your kind words and keep those invites coming!

[Parker]

Lance- I am in Sailibury, N.H., Not saying that I know what I am doing But...I am in the process of thinning and setting up a 1,000+ tap bush just north of me in Hill,,I have another 1800 or so taps around town,,If you ever wanted to spend the day down here in the woods working on tubing set up for vacume send me a PM and we will set a time

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

Lance,

Thats for asking about the wife and she did have the baby last week and everyone is doing great.

As far as your syrup operation, the best teacher is "hands on". People can tell you everything you need, but there is no substitute for experience. Try to add a few things each year and work on improvements. To try to do everything all at once is too much and you will spend more time trying to figure out problems than you will making syrup. For starters, work on getting your evaporator more efficient. There are lots of little things there that can help, but the best thing is seasoned wood that has been in the dry for months before syrup season. Keep asking questions and we will try to help.

Little by little, inch by inch, or should I say gph by gph! :D

[syrupmaker]

Lance...... Do you have the DeLaval pump? The family and I are going to Maplemans the weekend of the 9th,10th and 11th. If you need a pump to try I could bring one with me to Jim's. :idea: You could kill two birds with one stone, pick up the pump and shoot the breeze about maple and oil vs. wood fireing. Jim had mentioned about a test fire/cleaning while we were up there that weekend! :twisted:

Rick

[Lance]

Chris C - Thanks for the reply. I'm not sure but I think the factory rating for the 2x6 D&G stock is only ~25 gph and I don't think we've been getting even that. Had to boil the second half of last year's season with damp wood. God, talk about maddening!!!!

This summer I cut and split probably 6-8 cords of wood so we'd have dry wood to boil with next season. Problem is it's always wet down by the sugarhouse so we didn't get the wood under cover. Buddy brought a bunch of it to the sugarhouse in Sept. when I was out of town. As you can imagine, the wood that was out in the weather all summer was wet - at least damp - so it looks like we've only got about 4 cords of good, dry wood for next year - unless someone's got a miracle way to dry out that damp wood in three months.

I'm rethinking my idea to put in a vacuum system this year. With 500 taps and dry wood, we should be able to make at least 150 gals of syrup but if we're gonna hafta be boiling with damp wood and a 25 gph evap, I'll be boiling 'til hell freezes over. I don't mind the long hours but I hate dealing with wet wood. We have enough trouble making light syrup under the best of conditions but it's impossible with wood that only makes half the heat it should.

It just doesn't make a lot of sense to increase the sap yield with vacuum, tweak the evap to max performance if we hafta boil with wet wood. Well, enough whinin' and moanin' for now. I gotta weigh all these factoids to figure out what I'm gonna do this season.

[Lance]

Parker - I'd love to come down and help you lay out that 1000 tap bush. Not sure yet what my schedule is next week but I'll drop you a PM.

Brandon - Glad to hear all's well with you and yours. Congrats on the new little one!!! As you can tell from the earlier post, I'm rethinking my plans for vacuum and any other improvements 'til we've got some dry wood to boil with.

Rick - I'm not sure I'm gonna be needing the DeLaval pump this season. I sure appreciate your generous offer, though. Nonetheless, I'd like to meet you and family, especially if Jim's gonna fire up his rig! That's the weekend of my daughter's birthday so I'm not sure yet what's going on. If not then, we'll figger out some time to get together.

[sweetwoodmaple]

Lance,

Hey...Relax! :wink:

A wood saver is a fan blower that I installed at the base of the firebox opposite the draft door. This is something I built myself with a 260 CFM fan and a plenum that takes the fan's 3" x 3" square output and narrows it to 1-1/2" x 18".

In order to use this, you close and block the front draft door and then place two 6" fire brick flat against the grates just inside the fire doors so it forces the air up through the fire instead of against the doors.

You use a fan controller to set the speed of the fan. For me, I turn it to low when I'm adding wood, then turn it up about 80% of full speed for full burn.

In my opinion, I could fire just as hot without the wood saver, but it took more paying attention. The wood saver helps me get the maximum heat all the time and minimize the slow downs after adding wood. This is a real fight on a 2 x 6 since the fire box is relatively small.

By the way, how deep are your flues? My model has 7" flues. If you have only 5", I think 25-30 gph will be max.

Damp wood doesn't help, that's for sure. I dealt with that last year. It cuts your gph, but the wood saver helped even things out for me.

Take Care - Brian

[mapleman3]

Lance, or anybody else for that matter, yes we will be doing a test boil/cleaning most likely on Sat the 9th with Rick Syrupmaker in from NY. your very welcome to come and chat... have a few....maybe you can change your Daughters Bday :wink: or give her extra gifts a day early :D if you need to get hold of me, email me or PM me, I can give you my phone #s and Address

hope to see ya..... or anyone else looking to meet up with us :wink:

[Mike]

Lance, Im in Franklin VT...If your in the area stop in...Will be glad to show you my set up...I have a 3x10 oil fired w/preheater hood...I have around 600 taps on Vacuum....Welcome to the site....If they haven't told you, GO BIGGER than you need.....Hey Jim, You all set ????

[mapleman3]

Hi Mike... yep doing pretty good, mostly set, the rig fired up nicely on sat. still will have to go though the woods and cut limbs off lines and fix some.. but that will be in Feb... lot more snow coming before then.... just looking for more galv buckets for more roadside taps... maybe a hood and preheater.. who knows before then. how bout you.. ready?

[Mike]

Hey Jim, Almost done....Ran 1600 feet of maine line and tied everything into on line going to the vac pump..Will only have to pick up in one spot instead of 3.......Will pump the sap straight up 15 ft to a 1" line that goes up to the rd where the tractor will be with the 500 gal tank....Its about 100 ft to the rd....we have a good slope to the rd 15 ft up....Have to raise one section of pipe a bit and will add some more taps when I tap....Hope to up to around 700-800 taps.......Hope everyone here has a great X-mas.....

[Sugarmaker]

Lance,
That wet wood sounds like a problem. Four cords plus, you should be in the 100-150 gallon range. But the 300 hours of boiling sounds like a full time JOB! We have just about the opposite but its a good problem for making a good hot fire. We burn a lot of recycled pallets. These burn like an inferno. We got the stack red hot one night and had to dial the draft down a little. The pallets burn so quick we have to fire about every 3-4 minutes. You might try mixing some of this in with your semi dry wood? How about some fans on the wood pile? Anyway we also use a wood saver (home made using a 550 CFM blower ducted and dampered into the back of the firebox) This might help with wet wood ? Our stack is 20 foot of 12 inch dia pipe and we get great natural draft too. Sounds like a dry wood shed is in your future? Its a nice feeling to see the wood stacked and dry in our wood shed.
I was going to mention that you can fire one side (door) at a time but sounds like you have the same problem as me the doors just are not large enough like some of the old arches. And I end up opening both.
Unlike Brian I dont shut my blower off or down during firing. Yea its hot but it seems to hold the boil better.
If you have any pictures of your operation I would love to see them. We hope to have our Casbohm Maple and Honey web site up by the first of the year.

[Lance]

Thanks for everybody's info and suggestions. I learn more from this site than any book could ever teach me.

Here's what's been happening lately. I reevaluated our whole operation to figger out where I really needed to start improvements. I walked our tubing lines - about 200 taps - and realized what a half-assed setup it is. In some places, the mainlines are actually running uphill and are full of sags and dips in the lines. Our 5/16 tubing arrangement is primitive - most of our drops are 4-6 ft. long and the whole setup is wrong. We don't have any laterals, per se. Instead, 4/5 of our taps are on branch lines, some of 'em 5-6 ft. long, some of 'em 30 ft. or more. Of the 200 taps on tubing, I bet we're lucky if we're getting the sap from 100 of 'em.

The more I looked at the setup, I realized the best thing to do was to tear it all down and start over. The last few days I've torn down all the 5/16 and cobbled the big enough pieces of it into 150 ft. lengths we can use for laterals. I've taken the drops apart, cleaned up the taps and tees and put 'em back together in 30 in. lengths. Next is to relocate the existing mainlines and get 'em running downhill.

We're not gonna use buckets this year - gathering with the John Deere tears the hell out of the logging road they were on. Instead, we're gonna add 200 or so taps on tubing and string new mainlines for the new taps. Then, run our laterals so we pick up every tree. By the time I'm done, we should have about 400 taps on a much more efficient tubing system. I'm guessing we should get at least 25 -30% more sap, maybe more.

Nest step is to tweak the evaporator and get it functioning as well as it can. Then, I'm gonna bring in a few more cords of dry wood. Then, by God, we should be ready to boil!!

[Maple Flats]

Lance, if there is anyway you could make it to the winter maple conference in Verona, NY it would help you greatly. On saturday there will be several seminars and the tubing seminar would make you much more efficient in your design. I also found one of the things talked about in the seminar from 2 years ago that really helped was a cheap little hand held pocket site level. I found one online for the low 20's and dealers get low 30's, eitherway it helps you keep a more uniform slope on the lines, especially needed on the main lines.

[NH Maplemaker]

Lance, Got my new sight level at home depot for $13 and change!! It's made by Stanley. Glade to hear you getting a handle a on things. Who knows if we have a slow day at sugaring time, may ride up and check out your operation.

[vermontkyle]

Hi Lance,
Not sure it would help but I've been looking at various economical blowers and a sales guy at the Chimmney Sweep on Shelburne Rd, in So. Burlington thought he could help me rig something used for less than $100.

Also on Sat. the 28th (I need to confirm the date) their is the maple meeting in Essex with all kind of seminars/dinner. Might be worth checking out.
-Kyle

[Lance]

Maple Flats - Thanks for the invite but Verona is quite a haul for me. Curious everybody should mention their sight levels - my buddy loaned me his the other day. From the layout of our tubing and mainlines, he must have bought it after he put up the tubing!

Jim - Anytime you want, you're more than welcome to come up and check out the operation. I really enjoyed your hospitality at your place and would be happy to reciprocate. Plus, I can pick your brain and get the benefit of your 20+ years of experience!!

Kyle - Good to hear from you! Where in So. Burlington is your operation? I used to ice fish with a guy from Chimney Sweep over here in Montpelier. I know he'd give me a break on a blower if I decide to go that route.

As Kyle mentioned, the Vermont Maple Sugar Makers Assoc. has started their annual classes/seminars. Here's the address: http://www.vermontmaple.org/conferences.html. The seminars started Monday and happen around the state every week or so. Looks like they're gonna cover some interesting stuff.

Speaking of which, I know I'm losing a lot of heat up the stack in that 2x6 evaporator. How can I keep more of that heat in the arch? It takes forever for the syrup pan to start boiling, long after the back pan's been boiling. I think it's because so much of the heat's going up the stack. No wonder we can't make light syrup - the stuff stays in the front pan a lot longer than it should. If I put a blower on that firebox, isn't it gonna blow whatever extra heat it makes up the stack?

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

Lance,

If you put a blower on the back of the arch, you will get more heat to the syrup pan and it will be boiling in less than 15 minutes. Cooks a lot faster and definitely the best investment for the small amount you could make! :D

[brookledge]

Lance,
Like Brandon said put the blower on the back side of the arch under the grates. You can get grates that are designed for blowers but you should be ok with out them. When the blower is on it will force the heat and flame towards the doors and up to the syrup pan before heading towards the flues.
Whereas with out a blower wood that is burning, lets say 2 feet into the fire box only gives heat to the flue pan because the draft is pulling the heat away from the syrup pan.
Keith

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

Lance,

I have a 2' evaporator and use only the stanard grates for it. At the time I invested in the airtight arch setup, the grates were not available for a 2' arch, but now are. :D

[Lance]

Brandon - How does an airtight arch differ from a coventional arch in design and construction? What is it that makes it airtight? Can a regular arch be converted to airtight? We need new grates for the arch anyways - will airtight arch grates help in a conventional arch?

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

Lance,

The airtight arches have the special front on them with the locking doors that are insulated. The one problem with regular arches is that when you put a fan on the back of the arch, it blows out a lot of ash out the front around the firing doors and any cracks the ashes can find. You many want to mount a fan in your draft door with a conventional arch. This will help a lot. Each of the evaporator companies have airtight doors pictured in their catalogs already mounted on the evaporator. If you look on my website, you can see it on my evaporator. :D

[Parker]

Lance- if you do put a blower on your evap. (which I would suggest) I would definatly insulate the doors,,if you dont there is a good chance they will get red hot while you are running and as they cool they will crack,,,(from personal experiance) When I insulated my doors I used 2" ceramic blanket then got a piece of boiler plate and welded bolts to it,,drilled holes in the doors to line up with the bolts and sanwiched the blanket between the doors and the plate,,put nuts on the bolts and done,,works great,,the boiler plate is always red when we are running,,I know with mine I still get a little ash blowing out the front,, I have seen people put the insulation on the inside of the dorrs and if there is no plate there the wood can knock the insulation off the door,,,,,,good luck

[GregMVT]

Lance

I had looked into putting an airtight door on my arch last year. I found out that I would have had to buy a new arch. The airtight doors are made for a square arch, mine is the older style that is V shaped with the smaller wood box. I couldn't justify the cost so went with just the blower for the back of the arch. I'll have to look into getting some insulation on the doors soon. I haven't had a problem with them getting red hot but would rather keep the heat and ash inside where they belong!!

Greg

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

Greg,

Leader has always made the airtight front for your type of arch unless they stopped in the last year or two. Nearly all of the arches are there are that type unless they bought them with the airtight front already made into the arch. 8O 8O They would never sell any if they didn't make them for that type of arch. :?

[Lance]

Progress report - Glenn Goodrich came down last week and we restrung the original mainline and put in three new mainlines. Glenn figgers if we tap every tree on those mainlines, we'll have close to 600 taps. This week I've been putting in new laterals and cutting in drops. Now I've gotta get the old 2x6 hopped up and increase gph or I'm gonna be boiling forever with (hopefully) all this new sap. We're gonna buy a generator to run the sap pump and the blower I want to put on the evaporator.

Brandon, I read in one of your recent posts a suggestion to Charlie that he fill up the back of his arch with sand or dirt to channel the hot gases closer to the pans. Can you give me some specifics, details how to do this?

Silly question - how do you guys carry your drop lines from tree to tree as you're cutting 'em in? I've been lugging a bundle of 'em under my arm and setting 'em down at each tree as I put 'em in. Doesn't take long before they're covered with snow, all tangled up and a general pain in the buttt. There's gotta be a better way to do it. Suggestions??

Again, thanks for all the help and the education.

[nhmaple48]

Lance, we bundle them up ,twenty five to a bundle and tie them with baling twine. Hitch the twine to a snap on your belt. Keep looking where you been for those that come loose. Paul

[Maple Hill Sugarhouse]

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[Lance]

Kevin - Where can I find a Bow saddle carrier?

[Maple Hill Sugarhouse]

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[Lance]

Paul - I tried bundling 'em up with twine but it's still a hassle fooling with that twine all the time and drops falling out.

Kevin - I think you hit on the secret - capping the taps into the tees. That way, there aren't so many loose ends to get caught on everything and get wicked tangled. I was thinking of some sort of velcro device but hadn't thunk how to fashion it. That bow saddle carrier sounds like the cat's meow. I'll check the local bow shops and see if I can find one. Thanks for the suggestion!

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

Lance,

Rubber bands work great. Really tight to start with and it holds 25 together down to 3 or 4! :D

[Lance]

Brandon - I tried rubber bands. Seemed more trouble than it was worth. I like Kevin's idea of using velcro. Any info on filling up my evap with sand or dirt to boost gph?

[markcasper]

Lance, Do you have a raised or drop flue? I have had them both, but now have a drop-flue. On the drop flue, I filled mine up with barn lime. I filled it so that there was barely any clearance between the bottm of the flues and the lime. I did this the entire length of the arch behind the grates. BUT, in back of the grates, i have fiebrick laying flat, i believe 2rows, before the lime starts.

On a raised flue, you want the narrow part of the arch filled all the way to the arch rail. Leave about a foot at the end and slope that down a good 8-10 inches so there is ample room for the smoke and gases, you want to leave plenty at the rear so that it doesn't cut down your draft. Mark

[brookledge]

Lance
You definately want the heat and gasses to be forced into your flues whether you have raised or drop flue. If you have a drop flue fill your arch up leaving about 1/2". At the end of the season raise your pan and rake the ash and sand back to the same level for next year. With a raised flue you want to build up the arch so that it is about level with the side rails. I used vermiculite and the laid brick on top. Just remember any of the heat that can travel below or to the side of your flues does you no good and just goes up the stack.
Also a word of caution. Make sure that you have a stack cover or some means of keeping rain from going into your stack. If rain gets into the sand or under the brick it will trap moisture and rot out the arch unless it is stainless. I have seen many arches that have the sheet metal rot out around the end where the stack is.
Keith

[markcasper]

brookledge, When you talked about the heat on the sides of the flues, could you clarify a bit. I have mine bricked all the way back on the sides, but there still is maybe 3 inches on each side of the side flues where some heat and flame escapes. Is one suppossed to have somethin all the way from the inner brick along the sides to the flues? Theres not enough room for a full firebrick to lay sideways, plus i was always afraid of somethin falling out against a flue during operation, and then what do you do? Mark

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

Mark,

One a drop flue, that is the way it is supposed to be. I did drop some ceramic blanket down on the sides of my arch this year as I always make my rail gasket out of it and just cut it longer. I wouldn't recommend putting to much in there especially if you are using forced air. :)

[Lance]

Hi, Guys - We've got a drop flue evap. If I'm understanding what y'all are saying, it seems like I want the arch filled up almost literally to the bottom of the flues and on both sides, too. Makes sense. Anybody in northern Vt. or NH got such an evap I could look at?

Kevin - I found a bow carrier at a local archery shop but the guy said he's never seen one with velcro. Did you buy yours ready made or did you add the velcro yourself? I tried your suggestion of carrying the drops capped in a loop carrier - worked slicker'n snot on a glass doorknob, even without the bow carrier. I think I'm home free! Thanks again.

[Maple Hill Sugarhouse]

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[Lance]

Kevin - I found the perfect holster for my two handed tubing tool the other day at a local hardware store. It's just a wide piece of leather that slips onto your belt. It has two "pockets" separated with a rivet. A tubing tool fits perfectly into it and it's halfway comfortable to wear. The store's trying to get rid of 'em - selling 'em for $3.99. I think they had a couple left.

[emericksmaple]

Hey guys a neat thing i found for carrying your droplines when cutting them in is to take a piece of flat alumium bout 1inch wide 1/8 thick and take and bend it down about 2-3 inches from the top almost so it touches. then go down about 8-10 inches and bend it up almost into a U but a big U. bring it back up to the top and then bend it slighty away from you and cut it off. And you have a great thing for carrying you droplines. If you don't bend it away from you when you bring it back up you"ll always be jamming you hand into it, I learned the hard way with a nice cut to the back of the hand!!

[Maple Hill Sugarhouse]

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[brookledge]

Mark
The brick you have on the sides is the way its suppose to be. I should have been more clear about the sides. With that 3" gap you should get a little bit of boiling in the outside sections of your flue pan.
Keith