Vodka?

[GramaCindy]

I read somewhere that it is a good idea to squirt or spray a little vodka into the tap hole to prevent bacterial growth…:oonly heard of it the one time. Does anyone have any idea if this helps? I know, I should DRINK it instead, but if it will help the tap hole stay open longer, I'm all for it.

[BryanEx]

Sterilize your drill bits, sterilize your taps, use distilled water to clean out any sawdust if you need to but other than that, you will only be hurting and not helping the process.

Besides... do you really want to check ID so that you only sell syrup to 18+ year old customers? :lol:

[GramaCindy]

Thanks Bryan, I was wondering what the heck?;) and I do want my granddaughters to be able to enjoy the syrup! They are only 3 and 4! I will sterilize my drill bit, taps are already done.

[jmayerl]

even though you sterilize the taps the minute they come out of boiling water they are in contact with new bacteria. I have spoke to both Joe Palok at maple hollow, and 2 other big producers around here. They refere to vodka as "food grade alcohol". they all say to get a spray bottle and spray off the bit after a few dozen holes and to spray every tap before puting it in. just a spritz, no need to drown the tap in booze.

[GramaCindy]

oh boy, TWO opposing views. I am going to have to wait for more imput. I was wondering the same thing actually. As soon as that drill bit is out in the wild blue yonder, it's no longer sterile. And, after you tap just one tree and put that drill on the ATV rack…..? As a food service person, I understand the whole "cross contamination issues" I like your reasoning. Wish I could remember whose info I gathered this from originally.

[BryanEx]

They refere to vodka as "food grade alcohol". they all say to get a spray bottle and spray off the bit after a few dozen holes and to spray every tap before puting it in.

The proverbial "they" also said for years to use formaldehyde tablets which is no longer practiced and illegal due to the health issues. If someone wishes to spray their trees with vodka, Bailey's, or tonic & gin's that's cool... but I will also say that that belief is based on folklore rather than research. I have yet to find one single government department, university extension, or maple research program that advocates treating tap holes with anything but sterile water and only to remove debris if needed. We are drilling holes in trees in the forest and not exactly in a sterile lab environment. The best we can do is simply limit how much bacteria is present as a starting point and then boil our l'il hearts out for the rest of the season. If you truly want to up your sap volume look at adding a vacuum system and/or adding more taps.

[jmayerl]

My 2cents are that it is not based on forklore but rather the fact that if you are able to limit the bacteria at all in a safe manner that it is good. Yes formaldehyde cannot be used due to the fact that it is been found to be a carginigen, while on the other hand vodka is not. No vodka will not sterilize anything, the alcohol in it will only give you a aseptic area. There is a world of difference between sterile and aseptic, believe me I have been a paramedic for many years and would love to have a steril working enviroment and be able to sterilize things before performing iv starts and the such, but outside of an operating room with an autoclave that is just not possible. That is why we strive to be aseptic it is the next best thing to sterile.

[BryanEx]

My 2cents are that it is not based on forklore but rather the fact that if you are able to limit the bacteria at all in a safe manner that it is good.
Okay, cool! That part we at least agree on. I am assuming that we also agree on the fact that the restriction in sap flow is based on bacterial growth in the tap hole during the maple season and especially during warmer temperatures. Given bacterial growth is compounded at an exponential rate, the key is to start with as little as possible to begin with. A Forest is not sterile and neither is our equipment once we get there to tap but with due diligence on preparing our equipment and given the fact that all but the smallest operations need to tap in below freezing temperatures bacteria count is low.

The part you and I will likely debate is the use of Vodka having some sort of benefit in production over the course of the season. I will honestly say I have no information on vodka's antimicrobial properties but with proper tapping techniques it really wouldn't make much difference. The biggest issue I have is that you are introducing a new property to the production of maple syrup. It can be passed off as "only a little bit" but still gets condensed at a ratio of 40 to 1 and I have no idea how it may affect the healing of the tree... which is also based on bacteria growth. If vodka helped in any way do you not think that Leader, CDL, & Dominion & Grim would be selling it relabeled as a "tap hole sanitizer"?

I wish Dr.Tim Perkins was not in the midst of his research right now as he would likely squash us both with his knowledge and resources but until then, there is no way I will believe that introducing anything to a tape hole other than a tap is beneficial to a producer as it would contradict every research paper I have ever read on the subject.

You are a good debater jmayerl but I really feel you are off on this one.

- Bryan

[TapME]

hey...... I want to use canadian club to keep the tapper warm does that count.

[jfroe939]

Use Milwaukee's Best... it's cheaper. Last year I treated all my tap holes to a spray of rubbing alchohol. I bought a sprayer from the same area at Target that they have all the travel-size shampoo and whatever near the pharmacy area. While I'm sure it didn't hurt to do it's not like I made 3 gallons of syrup from each tap. I probably won't do it again this year. But I might bring along an ice cream pail and just soak the taps in alcohol before I pound them in. Can't hurt I suppose. I'm not very convinced of any efficacy of the practice. I just haven't seen results that make it a mandatory practice. Short of basting your taps with cow manure, I don't believe there's any noteworthy amount of bacteria present in the hole that will significantly effect your sugaring season too greatly one way or the other. The weather itself holds a much greater weight on how the season will end up. Like somebody up top wrote, just tap more trees.

[RileySugarbush]

Use Milwaukee's Best... it's cheaper. Last year I treated all my tap holes to a spray of rubbing alchohol. I bought a sprayer from the same area at Target that they have all the travel-size shampoo and whatever near the pharmacy area.......

Was it a food grade sprayer?

[CBOYER]

It is a current practice in Quebec to clean spout and tap whit a spray of 70% ethylic alcool (the one you could drink ), and its even in conformance for "Biologic operations" as per Mapaq (ag. authority in Qc). its different in Ontario, there ag authority doesnt recommand to do this!
Same country, different views :confused:

[BryanEx]

Good point CBOYER. Does the Mapaq also suggest boiling or otherwise cleaning the taps before the spray or is the spray intended to be a replacement for that process? Unfortunately my French is not strong enough to understand the Mapaq web site information.

[CBOYER]

Mapaq refer to Centre acer documentation and studies, :
Spraying 2 ml alcool 70% alcool in tap and -+same amount for spout (dripping)
no discussion about boiling. one actual studies talk about Sodium hypochlorite clean fast but not long term, alcool clean and have a long term effect.

Inderstand that a lot of info is in french, thast why i try to translate for you, but sometimes i search the good words to put in englisn.

[Maple Hobo]

The point is that CLEAN taps don't have bacteria on them. Now the Bacteria is what causes the tree to heal itself and closing the tap hole off. Requiring another round of tapping if needed for a longer season. Dirty taps will trigger the healing process sooner then new clean or sanitied reused taps.

NEW taps, steralized taps, washed taps, alcohol on taps all help to removed last seasons bacteria and give you a longer running and cleaner water. Doesn't retaping help eliminate the "sheep snot" that happens apter the trees are tapped for a while? Isn't that bacteria and the tree trying to heal?

The alcohol if it did make it into the evaporator would simply boil off. You can get really cheap vodka, it is a pure alcohol (normally) with no flavorings added. Flavorings that might not evap out of your syrup as it boils.

The formaldahyde pills didn't boil off and also caused the trees to never heal over the old tap holes and made trees die.

Some people use deluted bleach to clean the lines and taps... The salts that bleach leave behind calls in the squirles even faster then the sugar water itself though. With the damage they do then.. might as well just take all your lines down or invest in an electrical tape company.

This leads into the sani-tips that many of the suppliers carry. You can pull off and dispose of them or sanitize them with soaking, alcohol, bleach, etc. Boiling them might also be an option, batch them through your finishing pan when your cleaning it at the end of the season for instance. Thats more labor and time though...

A spray bottle of Vodka is easier to carry then replacment tips for all your taps if you have a large sugar grove or bush.

I redid the entire sugar camp last year and we cleaned ALL the old taps. They ran longer then any year prior basicaly. We leave the lines up and plug the taps into the 3 way connection's tap cap, The new taps or the cleaned taps do run longer then the dirty ones from last season.

I think this is where the new Check valve taps are trying to come in. They prevent the tree from sucking the water that has been in the tap already from flowing back into the tree. Even if you spray the tap with a cleaner, its hard to clean the inside of the tap. The bacteria gets flushed back into the tree and it starts trying to heal over the hole.
They are also to be removed to be cleaned or replaced (ya right!) each season.

Then again, its just my oppinion, so take it or leave it as you like.

[CBOYER]

Qc studies call 70% alcohol to kill bacteria, we could buy in Qc 94% pure alcohol at SaQ (Gov't control alcool in Qc, high taxes!!), and dilute it. i try one time to drink a shot of this and never again...its "Gasoline" thing:o

I think in US you have "proof" to determine type of alcohol, do you have 150 proof cheap Vodka ?

[TF Maple]

40% or 80 proof is what I find on a vodka bottle unless there is stronger than that available.

[Dill]

I remember this topic coming up at a maple school that Dr Tim was presenting. I believe his answer was your better off drinking the vodka for the benefit you get spraying the tree.

[happy thoughts]

Last year I treated all my tap holes to a spray of rubbing alchohol.

@jfroe- To vodka or not to increase production, I can't say:) I'm just a small home hobbyist that's been lurking on this forum for the last few years. You guys are all so very helpful and I thank each one of you! That said, the use of rubbing alcohol has me concerned since it is poisonous if ingested in large enough amounts. I know you're probably just using very small amounts but still.... I would only use food grade alcohol if you were to do this again just as only food grade collection supplies are recommended.

Anyhoo, looks like it might turn out to be a good year and certainly a much better one than last year. May we all hit gushers of sap as that's something we can all drink to:D

[Maple Hobo]

I remember this topic coming up at a maple school that Dr Tim was presenting. I believe his answer was your better off drinking the vodka for the benefit you get spraying the tree.

Don't spray the tree... you spray the taps to clean them.
The tree's fresh drilled tap hole is already clean.

Well, unless you are using a contaminated bit in your drill or something?

[KenWP]

Food grade alcohol is a new one.It's all poisen in the right quanity.if rubbing alcohol was that poisenous every rubby in the street would be dead by now.

[Z/MAN]

HappyThoughts, where in NE Pa are you located?

[jmayerl]

[QUOTE=RockHavenWV;137244]Don't spray the tree... you spray the taps to clean them.
The tree's fresh drilled tap hole is already clean.

This is what I was told to do; spray the tap not tree

[happy thoughts]

Good morning Z/man. We are in Sullivan County now but lived near you not that long ago near Stroudsburg where we first caught the syrup bug. This is our first year tapping here and only have a handful of taps in so far. The sap has been running pretty good the last couple of days so we'll probably throw a few more in today. I'm hoping to make just a gallon or 2 of syrup.

What kind of yield are you expecting off your 50 taps? Any commercial production? This is strictly hobby stuff for us. I'm just using steam pans as evaporators, but now that we have a few more trees to work with we're starting to think of upping production. A real evaporator and a sugar shack is also on my wish list. Is that a sign of addiction? :)

[happy thoughts]

Food grade alcohol is a new one.It's all poisen in the right quanity.if rubbing alcohol was that poisenous every rubby in the street would be dead by now.

Yeah you're right it IS all poison:) That said, food grade alcohol would be any ethanol that's heavily taxed and does not say in big block letters on the label FOR EXTERNAL USE ONLY.

Not only does rubbing alcohol contain methyl (wood) alcohol which is not drinkable and is added to rubbing alcohol specifically for that purpose, it also contains acetone, aka nail polish remover.

To each his own I guess and as I said before, just small amounts are being used. Still I wouldn't personally use the stuff for a product that will eventually be ingested by my family and friends and particularly my grandkids. Your own mileage may vary.

[Z/MAN]

Good morning Z/man. We are in Sullivan County now but lived near you not that long ago near Stroudsburg where we first caught the syrup bug. This is our first year tapping here and only have a handful of taps in so far. The sap has been running pretty good the last couple of days so we'll probably throw a few more in today. I'm hoping to make just a gallon or 2 of syrup.

What kind of yield are you expecting off your 50 taps? Any commercial production? This is strictly hobby stuff for us. I'm just using steam pans as evaporators, but now that we have a few more trees to work with we're starting to think of upping production. A real evaporator and a sugar shack is also on my wish list. Is that a sign of addiction? :)

Happy Thoughts, I only made 4 gallons last year with the unfavorable weather we had. So far not doing good this year either. They just don't seem to want to run.

[Flat Lander Sugaring]

wow So I need to buy 125 tapping bits next year so I have a sterile one for each tree?

[jmayerl]

wow So I need to buy 125 tapping bits next year so I have a sterile one for each tree?

The only way to make anything sterile is to put it through an autoclave.

[jfroe939]

I posted that I treated my trees to rubbing alcohol. I use isopropyl alchohol. The clear no-color stuff. I assume that's rubbing alcohol or is that something different? Whether it helps or not I don't know. I have no hesitation using it except of whether or not I'm benefiting from the practice. I used a fifth of a bottle on 200+ trees. If that's going to get people in a tizzy... shoot, I'd be more worried about people who aren't flushing their bleached lines out completely (unintentionally of course). It's a matter of dillution. I could pour a tablespoon of isopropyl alchohol on your pancakes and outside of the crapy taste I think you, me and whoever ate them would live another day. By the way, even if 100% of the alchohol made it to the pan it would boil off in less than 10 minutes. Considering that 3/4 or more of the squirt I shot in the tap holes rolled right out immediately I don't think anyone would or should hesitate to try using this method. The real discussion should be of whether or not it's worth doing. thanks for the concern though.

[KenWP]

Yeah you're right it IS all poison:) That said, food grade alcohol would be any ethanol that's heavily taxed and does not say in big block letters on the label FOR EXTERNAL USE ONLY.

Not only does rubbing alcohol contain methyl (wood) alcohol which is not drinkable and is added to rubbing alcohol specifically for that purpose, it also contains acetone, aka nail polish remover.

To each his own I guess and as I said before, just small amounts are being used. Still I wouldn't personally use the stuff for a product that will eventually be ingested by my family and friends and particularly my grandkids. Your own mileage may vary.

I have to buy a bottle of rubbing alcohol a week and the druggist keeps it behind the counter because it is very drinkable. I fortunatly am a drug and alcohol counselor and have seem many people that perfer it to the good stuff as they say. It just takes a extra couple seconds to drink it.
Seems like a lot of this food grade ideas are due more to miss information then actual facts.

[3rdgen.maple]

I have to buy a bottle of rubbing alcohol a week and the druggist keeps it behind the counter because it is very drinkable. I fortunatly am a drug and alcohol counselor and have seem many people that perfer it to the good stuff as they say. It just takes a extra couple seconds to drink it.
Seems like a lot of this food grade ideas are due more to miss information then actual facts.

KenW what do you have something like 35 or 36 different jobs? :D

[Maple Hobo]

The only way to make anything sterile is to put it through an autoclave.

Not true, an autoclave is one way. Anyone who CANS or bottles knows that you can boil to kill all bacteria making a sterile container for example.

When you boil the stap to steam... the syrup is also Sterile. So when you put it into a clean container... Still Sterile.

The contaminated bit that would effect the holes closing would need to have the bacteria on it enough to stay in the hole you drill. The cutting edge and the shavings the drills pull out makes the hole clean.

If you use some rusted old bit handed down from your great grandfather it might effect something?

When we tap, its still so cold outside most bacteria would be dead or dormant anyhow...lol

Old pulp and residue on a used tap... thats the issue.

I wouldn't use wood alcohol myself... but consider this. What temperature does alcohol boil off? What temerature do you cook the maple syrup to? I think that ANY alcohol product would be long evaorated before you reached the finished syrup level.

[jmayerl]

yup sorry I hastly posted that with out adding that an autoclave is just a hot steam bath.

[jmayerl]

As I second guessed myself, here are the times and temps needed to fully sterilize that I was able to locate.

A widely-used method for heat sterilization is the autoclave, sometimes called a converter. Autoclaves commonly use steam heated to 121–134 °C (250–273 °F). To achieve sterility, a holding time of at least 15 minutes at 121 °C (250 °F) or 3 minutes at 134 °C (273 °F) is required.

[C.Wilcox]

The rubbing alcohol that you can buy from the grocery stores is Isopropyl, not Methanol (wood alcohol). They used to make rubbing alcohol out of Methanol, but too many people were drinking it and going blind so they switched over to Isopropyl. My understanding (and it may be wrong) is that Methanol attacks the optic nerve and that's why people ultimately go blind from it. Isopropyl will make you drunk, but you get sicker than a dog from it. Either way, the alcohol itself will be long gone from your syrup by the time you finish boiling. I can't say whether it leaves any undesirable by-products in the finished syrup though.

[Flat Lander Sugaring]

As I second guessed myself, here are the times and temps needed to fully sterilize that I was able to locate.

A widely-used method for heat sterilization is the autoclave, sometimes called a converter. Autoclaves commonly use steam heated to 121–134 °C (250–273 °F). To achieve sterility, a holding time of at least 15 minutes at 121 °C (250 °F) or 3 minutes at 134 °C (273 °F) is required.

so at 3 min each x 125 taps, it will take me 6.25 hours to tap. Thats a long time but hopefully worth it.:evil:

[Maple Hobo]

As I second guessed myself, here are the times and temps needed to fully sterilize that I was able to locate.

A widely-used method for heat sterilization is the autoclave, sometimes called a converter. Autoclaves commonly use steam heated to 121–134 °C (250–273 °F). To achieve sterility, a holding time of at least 15 minutes at 121 °C (250 °F) or 3 minutes at 134 °C (273 °F) is required.


Now how long and how hot do you cook maple syrup? What is your boiling temperature with 66-67 brix of sugar suspended in solution?