Stainless v/s Aluminum Evap Pan?

[Medic421]

Hey y'all,

I will apologize in advance if this has already been talked about but I am new on here, I tapped my first Maple last year (2010), and as one might exect, I am hooked... Last year I batch boiled about 60 gallons down on the stove top, and this year I have incorporated a 55 gal barrel cut in half, which was no better than doing it on the stove top, and have had to dump sap and even had some spoil because I could get to it soon enough, so, I am getting plans together (drawing and researching) for a 2X3 or 2X4 evaporator. Currently I have about 50-60 taps on jugs and buckets(and hoping to have more for next year) on a good day I can get about 30 gallons of sap. I have looked at Davy Jones' plans on his arch and revised them a little to my liking. What I am having trouble with is the pan. I have a question concerning the pan itself, Most everything I have read says stainless steel pans, I am just wandering why aluminum wouldnt work? The reason I ask this is because stainless is quite expensive, especially to buy and then have someone to fabricate it. I am hoping to be able to get 15-20 gallons evaporation per hour or better, any ideas and suggestions would be much appreciated. Thanks in advance, Greg.

Here is what I am looking at as far as the arch goes:

[buck3m]

There must be some reason why the big manufacturers don't use them, but we used aluminum pans for years and they worked fine. The biggest one was about 2'x4'. The only problem we had is that we simply folded large sheets of aluminum which eventually would crack at the corners. But then we'd repair them and keep going. We could still easily use them if we wanted. Here's a couple of threads that mention aluminum pans:

http://mapletrader.com/community/showthread.php?t=1266&page=2

http://mapletrader.com/community/showthread.php?t=10269&page=2

[highlandcattle]

I'm not an expert, but stainless is the industry standard for food production. We have made the switch to all stainless for our entire operation, expensive, but needed,as we sell to the public. I'm sure many people will give you lots more info. on this.

[Medic421]

Thanks for the info, I am not looking at becoming a mass volume producer, I only want to make for a number of friends and family, mainly myself. If by chance one of these days the "hobby" (more like obsession) gets bigger, I can always upgrade to better equipment, right now I am just wanting something that will get me out of a pinch with TOO much sap, and do better than 2 gallons an hour evaporation. And with the economy the way it is, I want to make every dollar my wife will allow me to have go as far as I can stretch it. I will keep researching and see what I can come up with.

Any ideas of how to better my arch, or do ya think it will work like it is?

[Sugarmaker]

Medic,
Arch design looks OK most don't have the 8 inch size in the back, but it will work Ok as you have designed too.
Make sure you make the back of the arch deep enough for a 7 inch drop flue pan if you would ever want one. Another thing is to go measure a set of pans from the factory and make your arch so they would fit [ thinking of the future]
Happy boiling.
Regards,
Chris

[Maple Hobo]

Raw aluminium needs to be thicker, its also been known to give off impurities into things cooked in it. The lower melting point of the Aluminium can be an issue if you get a good hot fire its more likely to burn through your pan.

Back years ago when they went from steel soda cans to aluminium we discovered that the steel cans didn't melt in the camp fire but the aluminium ones burned off and melted pretty quickly.

Granted you can boil water in a plastic soda bottle over a fire without melting it if your careful. I'd rather take the safer route of the stainless steel.

Its not like the stainless steel pans can't be ruined and burt through either though. When boiling sap like we do, the heat is an issue for the metals we use in the pans.

Just my opinion though...

PS: My dad and father in law both retired out of an Aluminuim refiery. If anyone was to go aluminium on the pans, if it was a good choice, we would be using them. Now our evaporator hoods... they are aluminum for sure!

[Clan Delaney]

The response I got when I inquired about building an arch out of aluminum was that, under equal amounts of heat, it would expand far more than steel, and that would lead to warping. Pans made out of aluminum would likely present the same problems. During boiling they might warp out of level, causing high spots that could lead to scorching. If you ran your sap deep that might not be as big an issue though.

[highlandcattle]

Here's a thought, no one cans food in aluminum, it leaches, that's why. I got rid of all aluminum cookware long ago. Cast iron, stainlees or heavy coated porcelin over iron. It's not worth trying to save money if you get sick. USe rest. pans available at supply stores, we finish with those, cheap and clean.

[maple flats]

It might be my imagination, but I swear I can taste syrup that was boiled in Aluminum, so can my wife. That being said, many small producers boil in aluminum turkey friers. I prefer using SS pots for that. I still reheat in SS pots on turkey frier burners to bottle. I'll heat about 15 gal at a time in 3 differnt pots @ 5 gal each, then I run it thru the filter one batch after another while the filter press is hot. Then I'll either pack it in ss kegs or bottle it in retail jugs or bottles.

[sandman6921]

Not sure if it matters, but I made my evaporator pan out of good old plain carbon steel. ~ 14ga.. I couldn't justify SS for just a hobby, and after firing the pan the first time it took on a nice blue/black shade. Wiped it down with mineral oil and hung it up in the garage. Didn't rust, and still has a nice sheen. We just wipe it down and go again. I think I paid 60 bucks for the steel, and ended up with a pan 30" x 52" takes two to move it, but it sure can go thru a bunch of sap. Made a block arch, closed off the front with some steel and made a door, and a fluepipe out the rear. Might not be the prettiest, but it works and was cheap.

[Medic421]

Thanks y'all, I just cant justify using SS for the pan for just a hobby either, but boy do they look pretty! Sandman, I may have to look into the carbon steel, that sounds like a pretty good idea, and would beat the crap out of aluminum. Sugarmaker, the 8 inch rise in the back is for the sap warmer to sit on, I wanted to eliminate the condensation from the bottom of the warming pan. Below is what I am looking at when it gets completed (biting my nails, itching to get started on it). Hope I did the pictures right, if not I'll get them in a few minutes.

[Mac_Muz]

I don't know anything for sure, but aluminum isn't to be used for constant cooking, for health reasons, which may or not effect other people.

read these and decide if they are correct. I am no doctor.
http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/195/does-exposure-to-aluminum-cause-alzheimers-disease

http://www.ccohs.ca/oshanswers/diseases/alzheime.html

Copper pans used to be the traditional pans for the pros, pre SS.

My pan is cold rolled sheet steel, that I cut and formed myself. I clean it at about this time of year from the last sugar coating on the inside I made on it last year. There is a slight bit of rust here and there, but I just sand the whole thing bright inside, before using it this year. I leave the carbon on the sides and bottom alone.

I don't sell any syrup, which I belive 'we' can't do with out all Stainless and copper parts.

Sap has no acid, or a copper pan wouldn't work. Any acids that contact copper will make anyone real sick.

Once i saw a woman make a fruit salad that contained grapefruit and oranges, and her copper pan was making light green foam.

BTW my steel came from a NAPA auto parts store.

I'll try to post a pic...

http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll275/Mac_Muz/Maple_Sugarin/Rig_top_front.jpg

detail of corner
http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll275/Mac_Muz/Maple_Sugarin/Preboiler_support.jpg

The top edge is doubled and folded back tight to the pan on itself

[Medic421]

Mac and Sandman, you all have just gave me all kinds of ideas, with plain steel I can do all the welding my self. I just dont have the abilities to weld SS or aluminum. I was only looking at aluminum for the cost benefit over SS. I really didnt want to use aluminum for the pan or warmer, because I know it has a much lower melting temp than SS, and I had heard about the impurities leaching out of it before, but just hadnt given it much thought. There is a steel yard about an hour away from where I live that has all kinds of "2nds" which is either just cut wrong or excess from other jobs, and they sell this stuff CHEAP, and is probably the route I will look at before I start building. But Thanks again for all the info and great ideas!!! I'll get some pics posted as soon as I can get started building!

[Medic421]

And I forgot to mention that the weather has really screwed up my sapping season. Apparently Mother Nature has decided to stay entirely to warm, and I hate to report that it is time now to start the tear down process. (Only bad part of living in south Kentucky). So I may not be in as big of a hurry to get it built, but gonna try to expedite the purchase of materials needed!

[sandman6921]

I went out and measured my pan before I tell any more fibs. My pan ended up being 31 1/2 " x 56" x 8" which calculates to 12 1/4 sq. ft. I just cut the corners out, and had one of the local guys with a break bend the sides up, then I welded the seams. You could just cut strips and weld the whole mess together, but I'm lazy. Then I welded diagonals across a corner, so I could set a large pot on the corner and have warmed sap drizzle in. Welded a 3/4" nipple in and added a ball valve as well. The whole pan overlaps my blocks by about 2" so no flames come up the side. Just one big pan, no baffles oor bracing, the steel is heavy enough to support itself. Again, not the best or fanciest but it works well.

[Mac_Muz]

Medic, Futze around in paper, a note book page will do for the first folded patterns. You can tack weld mild steel, easy enough here and there and then silver solder (No lead) the rest filling gaps.

I WISH I folded over the 2 divider tops, which would have stiffened the pan more over all. The bottoms are bent to 90 degrees, and the are opposing corners cut, forcing the sap to flow the the sugar to the front. Just out of view is a 1/2 inch union with a ball check valve to pour off with.

You might like this idea too.

2nd row down 4th pic over. It's a flame baffel, which forces flame into the pan, before the fire has to tirn down, to go up the stack.
http://s290.photobucket.com/albums/ll275/Mac_Muz/Maple_Sugarin/#!cpZZ1QQtppZZ32

I don't use insulation, or sand at all. Most of this stove is made of parts of the barrel. Free is a deal an old Scot canna' live with out :D

[Medic421]

Mac, that is pretty interesting looking, what kind of boil rate can you get out of it? Also I know pretty much the size of a barrel, but what size is this thing?

[Mac_Muz]

I don't know exact measurements off the top of my head as I made this in 07 in time for that season with a few days to spare :D I don't rush into nuthin any too fast Ya Know :D

I think it is around 21 inches wide, kinda based on the barrel and a 4x4 sheet of steel from NAPA Auto Parts. The side edges just rest on the barrel, and the front and rear rest on slight ledges I formed. I didn't want a hot pan going anywhere if i gave the rig a wack.

The whole thing is mobile on skis.

2nd row down and 6th pic over is the grate made of the pan cut out. The grate is standing. I did have to add scrap 2x4 steel tubing, apx 3 inchs each as grate legs.

Rate.... I don't have dead dry woods to burn, and get standing dead white pine fairly well sun bleached abd oils free. Not the best wood.

I tend to boil 40-44 gallons as all day deal, and depending on weather, like if there is a high passing the time is cut, and if a low is passing the time is longer. So that gallons can be ready for the house cook stove in 8 to 14 hours.

It can depend on how much applejack I get into as well :mrgreen:

I'll get you exact specs if you wish in day light.

It takes 10 gallons to light a fire, 5 gallons is about 1/8 / 1/4 inch deep. The pan isn't dead flat on the bottom, and no fire can be started with any bottom metal exposed.

Sig Line:

Mad wife? Try this....... it's a motorcycle gas tank getting painted in the only bathroom we had..

http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll275/Mac_Muz/Liberty/c418.jpg

This can end in Death, or she will worship the hairless knuckles on yer hands...

[Medic421]

Mac, Thats ok, no need to get exact measurements unless you were planning on measuring it anyways. It sounds like you are doing much better than me, with my barrel, which looks like a big cereal bowl with a fire under it. HEE HEE! Im lucky to boil 2 gallons an hour, on a good day with as dry wood as I can find. And thats without the applejack:lol:

[Mac_Muz]

Note the edit for mad wife above :D

Yeah once I had another barrel stove cut to fit another 1/3 round barrel in.. That rig was slow. I try to run less than 3 vertical inches of sap, and get the entire pan in a mad boil.

It 'seems' to me that little boil bubbles can go back into suspention if the sap level in a pan is too high.

My season is just starting. I got apx 3+ feet of snow on the ground everywhere. Step off a snow shoe trail and you drop to the family jewels.

I put out 35 taps and buckets of 36 today, for the lack of a gone missing tap (spile) to you I guess. I don't know the right words for lots of thngs. I just make do or go with out, and i don't go with out much .

[BryanEx]

I put out 35 taps and buckets of 36 today, for the lack of a gone missing tap
O'boy... would that ever bug me. I would likely nail the bucket to a tree and go back later with a tap just to say they were all hung.

[Medic421]

O'boy... would that ever bug me. I would likely nail the bucket to a tree and go back later with a tap just to say they were all hung.

Bryan, I would probably do the same, but then I would forget which tree I just nailed the bucket too, and have to go visit every single one to remember which one didnt have a tap. :lol:

[Mac_Muz]

Maybe I will :D I had hoped to find the tap in my wifes vest, since she wore that before the battery drill wore out 3 batterys. Next I looked in my brass bullet case tumbler, where I had tumbled the taps, as if they were bullet brass. My taps are a mix of old antiques and some get a little rusty.

But my best guess is that tap in buried under the snow from where I gathered everything to hose it off behind the barn last season's end.

I can hang that bucket on a phone pole later to day maybe ......:o

[Medic421]

I can hang that bucket on a phone pole later to day maybe ......:o

I would probably get more sap from the phone pole, since im not getting any from the trees! :lol:

[Medic421]

Here is a few items I have tinkered on with Google Sketch-Up, Just need to figure out what I want to do on a steam hood, eventually I am going to move this indoors to a little building of some kind (Hoping).

[Mac_Muz]

I get red x's, no idea why. I have no idea the weather in Ky either. No sap here yet to speak of, but it was -7 here last night, said to be -10 this night, and probably poor weather for sap till mid week, next week, but we are 800 miles apart roughly....

Do you have below +32 degrees at night, warm sunny, windless days?

[Medic421]

Mac, No our nights get down to about 40, and the days get up to about 60 and windy. And all of the trees that are tapped (still, because I have been lazy and not pulled them out yet) have already bloomed. The sapping season for South Ky usually starts about 2nd week of Jan and stops just about the last week of Feb. I could have probably started tapping and collecting sap about the 3rd week of December, but it was mostly too cold for sap to run. Think I will try to get a jump on it this coming year.

As far as the red x's I dont know, they show up on my end.

[Mac_Muz]

Oh I heard of guys like you once before. Full time, year round maple syrup makers :D

I got a nice sunny day and the sap should be runnin' like mad, but it isn't :confused: Must be too much snow pack still. Some buckets are in fact running, while others in the same lot are bone dry. It will come, and is sort of, but not like it should.

Tomorrow will be partly cloudly :D Then snow and bad weather til Monday, at least according to 2 weather reports I do on line.

I hung replaced tap 36 and a new 37 tap and bucket today. Each year i say i won't add another bucket, but i still do :emb:

If I find the lost tap I'll hang a bucket out on that too.

[Friar_Athanasius]

I am one of those guys that believes that aluminum is toxic so I wouldn't use it anyways.

Aluminum Toxicity (http://www.opposingdigits.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=38)

[buck3m]

I am one of those guys that believes that aluminum is toxic so I wouldn't use it anyways.



You might be right, but "As FDA and researchers point out, aluminum is ubiquitous. It is the third most abundant element in the earth's crust (after oxygen and silicon). It is in air, water and soil, and ultimately in the plants and animals we eat."
http://www.msue.msu.edu/objects/content_revision/download.cfm/revision_id.499708/workspace_id.-4/01500616.html/

[Friar_Athanasius]

I think the FDA is toxic too! :D

[kitti]

I do a lot of canning food, jelly, jam, And syrup. I learned along time ago that jelly and syrup for say, candied yams wont get thick in an aluminum pan. so I would assume that maple syrup wouldn't work well either. I wouldn't waste my time with any aluminum pans. Pay the extra for stainless, always. Just my opinion.

[Medic421]

Yeah, I'm definitely gonna stay away from aluminum, I do believe I will just build a pan out of steel, until I can afford to get one fabricated out of SS.

[Bernie/MA]

My son-in-law is boiling in an aluminum pan as I write, in one of about six I have built. Because of the negativity I'm not going to try to market them but do plan to make small stainless ones, 18x36", to be used on a top frame I designed to be used an a concrete block arch. It has a hanging door on one end and an 8" stack on the other. My grandson is using one that boils over 3 gal per hr. My price will be under $500. I'm a "retired" welder with a fab shop that includes a power shear and pressbrake.

[Mac_Muz]

My son-in-law is boiling in an aluminum pan as I write, in one of about six I have built. Because of the negativity I'm not going to try to market them but do plan to make small stainless ones, 18x36", to be used on a top frame I designed to be used an a concrete block arch. It has a hanging door on one end and an 8" stack on the other. My grandson is using one that boils over 3 gal per hr. My price will be under $500. I'm a "retired" welder with a fab shop that includes a power shear and pressbrake.

Check on the law.... Maybe you can still sell syrup made in other than ss I don't know.

Mild steel and copper work fine. Copper was the old traditional pan till ss came along.

Mild steel pans made to fit a barrel stove might be marketable at low dough for back yarders. That is near the size you make now.

I am not sure what a 4x4 sheet of mild steel is just now, 35 bucks or less I'ld guess, and you can get nice double flanges all the way around, 2 dividers and a little scrap left over from such a sheet.

I don't think syrup made from mild steel can be sold either, not to anyone very official anyway. But I might be very wrong. I simple am too small a back yarder to want to sell. I make a few gifts and keep the rest for cooking n' pancakes.

I work in ss too, but won't pay that price.

Today someone gave me a ss wash tank for a wet belt sander. I'ld like to get that cleaned up, and some how mounted to a barrel stove close enough to get it to pre heat. That tank is much like a big pan, made of some serious ss, might be 18 to 14 ga steel.

[500592]

you can get a good deal on ebay its like $350 for 24'' by 4' with a preheater it is stainless steel and looks very well built just search maple sryup pan