operating an RO

[Maple Flats]

When and if I get an RO what size tank (s) should I plan. Hope to ultimately have 500-600 taps, combination sugars, blacks, reds and ?, but over 50% sugars/blacks. What size tanks should I plan and what is each used for? Kind of give me course 101 in RO. I think it is too late for next season but want to know what to be on the lookout for while I dream about the future.
Thanks,
Maple Flats

[mountainvan]

do you mean storage tanks? if so 1-2 gallon/tap stainless or plastic tank for raw sap, look at your top flow, collecting schedule etc. a plastic/ stainless tank that holds enough permeate to rince/clean your membranes+ a little extra for other uses. a 10 barrel tank for concentrate. By the way guys from cdl in canada told me about the plastic/stainless tanks.

[Maple Flats]

I'm too new, what is 10 barrel size, would that be 500 Gal approx.?
After that I need to hear the whole step by step process for using RO please.

[brookledge]

1 barrel =31.5 gal so 10 barrel =315 gal.
Keith

[mountainvan]

1 barrel=32 gallons 10 barrels is 320 gallons. step by step I'll write later, have to go buy a new oven today, always xomething!!

[mountainvan]

here goes what I do with sap and ro. fill up 600 gal tank, turn on uv light, put in new prefilter and sleeve or just sleeve if prefilter good, open valve from tank to the ro, start water pump( part of ro) wait till pressure is 40-50, start high pressure pump( if ro stops, start water pump to 40-50, then push water pump start and pressure pump at the same time), set pressure to 450-480, let ro run for 5 minutes, check concentrate sugar content, check permeate sugar content( concentrate I run to 7.5% permeate should be 0%), make sure the cocentrate and permeate are going into the tanks, and then I go get more sap!! After collecting if the ro is still going I start up the evaporator and start making syrup pretty much right away. I keep an eye on the ro till it shuts off, close the valve to the sap tank,turn off uv light, open the valve top the permeate tank, start the water pump( not the pressure pump) and rinse the membranes for 15 minutes. Turn off the ro,close the permeate valve, put in the washing filter, open the permeate valve to fill the wash tank( close the wash tank drain) add membrane soap to the wash water, close permeate valve, open wash valve, and then let the machine wash till it shuts off. Drain the wash basin, close the wash valve open the permeate valve, start water pump, let machine rinse with 350 gal permeate till it shuts off, take out wash membrane, and then finish boiling. there is some changing the position of valves in the machine for concentrating, rinsing and washing. if you can run an evaporator with out burning down the saphouse you can probably run an ro, they're pretty much idiot proof now. I would have had to build a new saphouse, get a bigger evaporator, cut lots more wood, etc that I did'nt have to do with the ro. It was only around $15,000 for the ro, building, and extra tank!!! That's only 400 gallons of syrup sold retail, double that bulk. Hope this helps, if you want to see it and my set-up give a holler.

[chipa]

By saying "washing filter " do you mean changing out the cartrige filter on the RO so that the junk on the filter doesnt get circulated during washing?









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[mountainvan]

yep. It's more so that the wash solution does not get mixed with sap. by having a dedicated filter the chance of that is very very low.I also rinse out the blue housing before putting a new filter in. a couple of years ago a guy in vermont did'nt rinse the membrane storage solution completely out, ran sap through the ro, made syrup, and got a inspector and buyer sick from the syrup. the chemicals used for ro maintenance are can be deadly, so rinsing, and keeping good records are important.

[gearpump]

thanks mountianvan for that clear and easy to follow set of instructions. I got my new RO last week and I have been spending a lot of time sitting on a five gallon pail in front of the machine with the manual trying to figure out how the heck to run this thing! The big draw back I can see is having to change the prefilter everytime for a wash cycle. I think I am going to get another big blue filter and a set of 3-way valves so all i have to do is change the valves to the right filter.

Marty

[mountainvan]

your welcome :) I did'nt think it was that my instructions were easy, I thought I just rambled on. get me talking about maple or fishing and I'm like the ladies and desperate housewives. who did you get your ro from? a strap wrench is the easiest way I've found to change the filter, takes about a minute.

[gearpump]

I got my RO from Matt Williams in Swanton. It's a Lapierre Turbo 250. The idea of being able to dump a load of sap and then processing it while I was going after another load is what sold me on buying one. I was wondering, what size should the permate tank be? I know bigger is better and you can always use the water for other cleaning jobs. I was thinking a 500 gallon vertical tank would be plenty big enough. Does this tank have to be protected from freezing? I would like to get a SS tank but that would be way to pricey!

Marty

[mountainvan]

I take it the 250 is the flow of sap in glallons at 55 degrees. If so you need 250 gallon of permeate to rinse the membranes/ after the wash/ + 50 or so for the rinse before wash+ wash water, soo 500 gallon is plenty. I have a 325 gallon pick-up tank I traded a gallon of syrup for awhile back. I also drilled a 4/4 inch hole in the top side so that a short piece of garden hose can take any over flow to a 100 gal stock tank, I use this for washing felts, drinking, etc. I also have a t in the permeate line with a 1/2 inch poly pipe with a ball valve at the end that ends over the sink in the saphouse, for cleaning, coffee. ro permeate makes great coffee and is also good for cleaning niter off of the pans with a heated soak. I have crossflow pans and usually have to clean the syrup pan every 20 gallons syrup made. with the ro sap I made 75 before I had niter on the pan! I'd be interested if you have the same next year. as for the freezing my policy is not to let anything freeze in the ro or back tank. If you get a hunk of ice in the tank you can't rinse your membranes and that's not good for them. daily cleaning /rinsing is the most important way to keep your ro working well. by the way my ro is rated for 250, does 300+ at 39 degrees. once again I ramble :)

[mountainvan]

forgot to add that metal fittings for the plastic tanks are a real plus. anytime I had some freezing in either tank it was solved by taking a touch to the fittings to melt the ice. Can't do that with a plastic fitting. and the hole is 3/4 not 4/4.

[gearpump]

Ok I got a some real good questions. The manual for my RO states that there are two kinds of washes for the membrane. An acid wash and an enzyme wash. What it does not say is when I should use one or the other! The other thing is what is membrane soap?! An acid or enzyme?! They also have a product called caustic soda, what the heck is this stuff? Right now I am a little confused! Should I also get a ph meter to test the solution or does those ph strips they have work? I didn't know that I needed to take chemistry 101 upon getting this machine! I updated my photo album and added some pictures of the RO

Marty

photos.yahoo.com/journeysendmaplefarm

[mountainvan]

howdy, I went out to my ro shed and looked at the soap, sodium hydroxide mixture, and the membrane preservative, sodium metabisulfite. sodium hyroxide is a strong base[ can be called caustic soda], my cdl membranes which are dow filmtec have this stuff as a daily wash, I washed my membranes every 1000+ gallons. Last year I had some days with less sap and I did a full 300 gallon rinse instead of a full wash. the other stuff is an acid,pH 4-4.5, and used as a membrane preservative. My instructions say to use it if not running the ro for a couple days, I never did that, and at the end of the season to store the membranes in, it kills bacteria that could foul the membranes. My chemicals came with the ro so I did not have to figure out what to. I don't have a pH meter, but I guess it could come in handy to see if the cleaning/killing chemicals are out of the ro before concentrating sap. I just borrowed one from my wife the science teacher for sugaring season, could get her in the saphouse more it being scientific and all :P My best advise is to get a hold of lapierre to find out the exact chemicals for your ro. hope this helped. I now know I'm rusty on my chemistry.

[powerdub]

Great discussion. I thought I might add my two cents on this as well.

Gearpump, I would get a permeate tank at least 750 gallons because you can run up to four hours before you have to rinse your membranes. If you run 250 gallons an hour through you will process 1000 gallons in four hours. Assuming you are taking 75% of the water out that is 750 gallons of permeate and 250 gallons of concentrate. I did not catch in any of this how many taps you have but if you are running more than a thousand you may be glad for the bigger tank. I too run a 250 machine and often have to run it more than four hours. I have an 850 gallon tank and it is too small some times.

Mountainvan, I get the impression your UV light is before your RO. I would suggest putting it on the concentrate line after the RO. Here is my reasoning. Having it after the RO it will kill any bacteria that the sap picks up in the RO and the lines. How many GPM is your light rated for? If you are doing 250 gallons per hour that is 4.1 gallons per minute through the light. Having it on the back side of the RO you are running anywhere from 1 to 3 GPM depending on what you concentrate to and that will make the light more efficient.

[gearpump]

Powerdub, I am hoping to be up to 500 taps this season. A 750 gallon tank sounds like a good idea, but where would I put it! My new what looked big on paper sugarhouse is already running out of room! My plans for now is to use a 200 gallon pickup tank as my permeate tank. I have just enough room for it and a 230 gallon S.S. tank for the concentrate on the second floor of the tank room. I guess that a large 800 gallon tank could be placed outside, but I would be afraid of it freezing. I think this first year with the RO will be a learning experience with lots of room for improvement! I like the idea of the UV unit after the RO, but I am wondering what happens to the bacteria in the membranes? Is there a chance of this stuff building up over the course of a season and causing problems with the membranes as it builds up?

Marty

[mountainvan]

howdy from the catskills, powerdub uv light is 12-15gal/min, so no problem with flow. the reason I have my uv light before the ro is penetration through the sap. sap is roughly 98% water the uv goes right through no minerals or concentrated sugar to be deflected by. keeping the glass clean in the unit is important I know it works cause in april when most guys are doing b or c I'm at med or dark. Only b I ever make is what's left in the evaporator at the end that I finish on the stove. gearpump all my tanks are outside. that's why I have tank deicers, you can get them from tsc. your concentrate won't freeze at all unless it's real cold. good luck.

[powerdub]

Gearpump, My tank is outside and I usually drain it at the end of every night by rinsing it all back through the machine. As far as the bacteria in the membrane, it will not be an issue when you soap them. I soap mine almost every night. I would encourage you to put the bigger tank in for your permeate if you have room. If you have a decent run I am sure you will get 500 gallons of sap. Combined, you only have 430 gallons of storage between the permeate and concentrate tanks. 75% of the sap you process will into the permeate tank. If you are like me you do not have all day to sit there and rinse your machine every hour. It is important to run as much water through your membranes as you can at the end of the day to ensure thier productivity. I would just hate to see you dump some of that on the ground and then have trouble with your membranes.


mountainvan, sounds like a nice light. I'm glad it works for you. I love mine, it really made a difference.

[Russell Lampron]

Gearpump, I too have a Lapierre RO machine. It is pretty simple to run once you actually have some sap to run thru it. The Lapierre manual looses alot in the translation from french to english. I talked to a producer in VT to learn some of the things that the manual doesn't tell you. I drove by your place a couple of weeks ago and see the new construction. If you are going to be around this weekend I would like to come over and check it out and talk RO's.

Russ

[emericksmaple]

One of the secrects to keeping your membrane good is the amount you rinse back through it. We have a 500 gal/hr Springtech and have a 1200 gal rinse tank outside of the camp. I wish i had a 2000 or 3000 gal to be honest. The more you can rinse back through every night the longer and more productive your membrane is going to be. Another thing we learned from a friend of ours who has a 1500gal/hr machine, is that if you have your membrane factory cleaned every year it really makes a big differance in how long they last.

[gearpump]

Russell, that would be great! I have been meaning to call you and taking a look at your RO and seeing how you have it setup. You are so right about the Lapierre RO manual! I do like the simplicity of the ro's design, but its hard to figure out the way they do some of the "procedures". The last couple of months have been nothing but me, a nailgun and not enough time in a day! If I am lucky I should be on target for getting the new sugarhouse ready for the season. It seems that the more work I finish, the more that needs to be done! I did get a nice shelf made for the RO washtank done tonight. This was not on the hot list, but now I can start thinking about getting the plumbing started. I will be trying to get the ceilings done in the sugarhouse this weekend so feel free to stop by. I would also like to set up a time to stop by your place.

Marty

[gearpump]

I have another interresting question on RO workings. When the membranes get rinsed at the end of the day, would it be a good thing to let the permate water drain back into the tank to be rerinsed or to let it go down the drain? This water should be super clean and it would seem that it would benefit to reuse all this water till it comes out the concentrate side and down then the drain. I know this sounds like I am thinking about this way too much!

Marty

[mountainvan]

marty,with my ro rinse is at low pressure, just feed pump, and it is all fed to the wash basin which is also the main drain. so I don't use the end of day rinse.

[lew]

I have a couple of comments on the use of UV lights and permeate tanks. First UV lights, Through my research and experience, I would advise putting your UV light in FRONT of your RO. Like someone else already mentioned, your sap is 98% water, the light can penetrate it much easier. My UV light has an intensity meter on it, and we could see a large difference in the intensity when putting the light in front of verses after the RO.

However, as my operation has grown over the years, I was able to acquire a trough UV light ( basically a gutter with a UV light over the top). I installed this AFTER the RO to help ensure a good bacterial kill. A bit overkill, but if you have it you might as well use it.

My other comment is the size of your permeate tank. Bigger is definitely better. You can never have too much permeate water. Eventually the day will come when you will have to do repeated washings and rinsings to get your membranes back to their previous performance levels. I don't remember who said it but "if your gonna run trains, you're gonna have wrecks". The same goes with RO's, cars, house, you name it. A bigger permeate tank is cheap insurance and good maintenance.

[michiganfarmer]

I have 2 questions. If sap is going to boiled imediately after comming out of the RO, can I get awya with no UV light?

WHen rinsing the membrane wiht permeate, Is the permeate being pushed backwards through the membrane?

[Thompson's Tree Farm]

Yes to number one, no to number two.

[michiganfarmer]

Yes to number one, no to number two.

OK. Wich direction does sap fow through the membrane? Does it go through the membrane from the outside? Does the permeate just rinse the outside of the membrane off? Does the membrane ever get back flushed?

[Russell Lampron]

On my RO the sap is forced up through the bottom end of the membrane. There are some machines out there that force it down through the top but those are mostly old ones that don't have circulation pumps.