Newbie with a bunch of questions

[RyanB]

Hey Guys...Total newbie here with a bunch of questions (hopefully you guys don't laugh).

Anyway, I have been boiling on my 14 acre property (all maples except for the 1 acre around the house) for the past 2 years. I have boiled on my wood stove with just pans on the stove and turkey fryer....so its time to upgrade to an arch and go from 20pans to 40 or 50!

I have already started my arch design 2x4'-5' and will have it ready in a week or so. My questions that I have really deal with the pan and different styles.

Here they are.....don't laugh!

#1-how are the drop flue pans working? is the syrup lighter than the sap so it floats up and doesn't settle in the dropped area's (just can't figure out how the syrup can be drawn off the pan if its sitting down 6" below the flat part of the pan. Again, I have only boiled with flat pans and I don't know much about the production end of things.

#2- with the divieded pans...is it just the in flow of sap on the one end that is pushing the syrup towards the other end of the maze (if you can call it that). or is it something with the desnity of the sap and syrup.

#3 My last question is probably really dumb, but I keep hearing about pre-heater pans, sap pans, flue pans and finishing pans. I was under the impression that most hobiests are using a preheater pan sitting ontop of the one large long pan thats on the arch with either a total flat bottom or dividers. Is this corect or are there 2 pans that are in direct contact with the heat/flames, and if so....what is an aproximate size for the pans on an arch of the size I am planning on. Also, what is the aproximate depth I should be looking at for the pans?

Thanks in advance and hopefully no one busts a gut laughing! I am a very experianced welder (tig, mig and stick) and am going to be building my own pans once I figure out which way I go.

RyanB

[RyanB]

Anyone? or should this question be moved to a different forum?

Ryan

[Bucket Head]

Now that I've composed myself after laughing so much... NO, no, just kidding! I had the same questions too when I started out.

First, no need to move this post. I think its in the right catagory.

Your right, sap/syrup is moved by the density. There's no settling going on. The boiling keeps everything agitated and the sap is always pushing the syrup. With the smaller, hobby type rigs the preheater pan sits over the main pan. Its not in contact with the fire. Preheaters on any larger rigs than the beginer models usually have a preheater consisting of copper tubes in the steam hood. Some homemade heaters have the copper wrapped around the stack. Your going to want a fair amount of metal going up for sides on the pan. When these things are boiling good there is a lot of splashing going on! More in the front closer to the fire, but you don't want sap getting out anywhere, front or rear. My pan sides are ten inches higher than the flues. Maybe some others will share how high their sides are for comparison. Both raised and drop, factory and homemade. Anybody?

Hope this helps and don't worry about asking questions. Good luck.

Steve

[cvmaple]

Question 1- The sap is boiling so hard in a drop flue pan that it is not going to be settling anywhere until it gets to the front or syrup pan. Some sap gets lost during shutdown but they increase the boil rate so much it is worth the loss.

Question 2 - Not really sure but the syrup that is nearest the drawoff point has been in the evaporator the longest and I think is pushed along by the fresh sap coming in.

Question 3- The pre heater is not in contact with any flame it just sits on the main pan and gets warmed up by the steam. the dividers in the pan are a good idea as it can give you a continous flow so you're syrup doesn't come all at once.

There are no dumb questions here. We are happy to help out newcomers as we were all beginners at one time. Hope this helps, if you need clarification don't be afraid to ask.

[3rdgen.maple]

Cvmaple what sap gets lost during shutdown? Never had that problem.
Ryanb I think with a 2x4 you are going to be looking for a 2x2 flue pan and a 2x2 syru pan, if you decide to go with the 2x5 (much better evaporation rates) go with a 3 foot flue pan and a 2 foot syrup pan. My sides are 12 inches high and sap still jumps out of the flue pan. A preheater isnt necessary and I wouldnt worry too much about it the first year anyways theres enough to worry about getting ready. If you do and are using a flue pan a copper preheater that sets aboe your flue pan with a hood over it is the best way to go. There are a few that have made there own and a few that have experimented with other ideas like copper pipe wrapped around the stack. Keep it simple for now and experiment as you get more comfortable with making syrup.

[morningstarfarm]

ok, you have 14 acres...but how many taps are there? if you have over 100-150 I'd jump right to a 2x6...believe me you will grow over the next few years...most of us started with 6-10 taps and a turkey fryer in the driveway and now have grown to evaps and built sugar houses..this is a really insidious addiction:lol: the flu pan concentrates the sap a ton..mine runs around 20% coming out into the channel pan. the density difference is what pushes the thicker sap along as it becomes syrup...thinner pushing thicker didn't make sence to me either..but it does..the preheaters that sit on the pan are just there to ack as a little head tank..set the valve at a trickle to keep the level even throughout the system..there are a ton of other options that you can search for on here. to start with I wouldn't worry about having one beyond the tank on top of the pans unless what you choose has a float valve to keep things rolling..you will be changing and adjusting your system to maximize efficiency for the rest of your life...we are always looking for that extra little bit...good luck:D

[BryanEx]

RyanB - I think most of your questions have been answered but I'll add to the info for ya...

#1-how are the drop flue pans working?
Drop or raised flue pans refer to the bottom shape of the main evaporation pan. If you picture the core of corrugated cardboard it's the same idea. Both increase the heating surface which in turn increases evaporation rates and then from their the boiled sap typically flows into a smaller flat bottom pan for the final stages of boiling.



#3 My last question is probably really dumb, but I keep hearing about pre-heater pans, sap pans, flue pans and finishing pans.
Pre-heaters are just a way to warm up the sap before you add it into your evaporator, usually using extra or wasted heat sources like steam. Sap & flue pans would be the same thing - the main boiling area on your evaporator and finish or syrup pan can either be a smaller pan where you finalize your boiling or a completely different set up like a propane burner.

[RyanB]

Thanks for all the responses guys! Here are a few answers to your questions


ok, you have 14 acres...but how many taps are there? if you have over 100-150 I'd jump right to a 2x6...believe me you will grow over the next few years
Last year I only had 20 taps and this year I may get up to 40 (50 at the most) in the next few years. We have a mature hard maple bush (no soft maples or red maples on the property). BUT being a cabinet maker I am managing the bush for veneer/saw logs and as of right now there are 147 maples over 18" that are "no tap" tree's. The property has never been tapped before we came here in the fall of 2008. Currently I am only tapping the real big, over mature maples that arn't good for anything other than fire wood and sap, crooked tree's, a few "yard tree's" and any tree that is over 10" that has canker or is usless as a saw log.

I know that with out a doubt I could make more over a 10 year period tapping and selling syrup from the property but with me being self employed, I am almost to busy as it is in mid March in the shop...let alone boiling full time...so that being said...for now, its a part time/hobbie gig for our own personal use.

With all this being said...what would the ideal pan/arch size be for me? I don't want to go to small but I think that going to big may be worse due to Tap #'s vs fire wood used.

Thanks again for all the reply's

RyanB

[cvmaple]

Sorry 3rd gen> I thought that the sap that was in the bottom of the flues during shutdown would be lost or mixed with water because it was below the level of the syrup pan. I guess I shouldn't comment on what I don't know.

[Sugarmaker]

cvmaple,
I caught your thought. Yes when done boiling for the day the syrup that was being pushed ahead will mix back with the less dense sap and become somewhat "lost" but not really since its all still there and all the sap is now sweeter. So when you start back up your just starting with a pan full of sap that is of higher concentration throughout. Your going to get all the syrup it just has mixed back into the sap.
[ I think thats what your trying to say?]
As far as the size of rig that Ryan should buy?
First figure out how to market veneer wood with tap holes and streaks from tap holes in it as a speciality maple product. I have bueatiful tap stained maple board in the sugarhouse!
Then go out and tap those suckers 200 taps on vacuum = 100 gallons of syrup at $40 per gallon [conservitive] = $4000 per year while your watching the trees grow.
50 taps get a 2 x 6
200 taps on vacuum get a 3 x 8.
Have fun!
We have all kinds on names for stuff and some of the terms are to some degree interchangable. NO such thing as a dumb question. There are so many variations to making syrup that you just have to get at it!
Regards.
Chris

[adk1]

Sugarmaker, a 2x6 for 50 taps?? wow, I must really be undersizing myslef then. I was planning on a simple 2x4 flat pan for up to 100 taps!

[morningstarfarm]

I got my 2x6 when I had about 75 taps...would highly reccomend it..I would boil every other night for about 2 hours and draw off 1.5-2 gals of syrup each time..beats the heck out of boiling for 6-8 hours to get the same...just my .02

[3rdgen.maple]

Sorry 3rd gen> I thought that the sap that was in the bottom of the flues during shutdown would be lost or mixed with water because it was below the level of the syrup pan. I guess I shouldn't comment on what I don't know.

Dont be sorry at all I was just asking because I dont know everything either and just thought there was something I was missing as I never noticed having that problem before. But I understand what you where thinking after Sugarmaker summed it up so no worries. The wife says I can be harsh when I dont understand and I look at her baffled. Guess I should word things differently sometimes. Keep the ideas and opinions coming that is what we are here for.