Leader Check Valves

[Frank Ivy]

Good doctor, I have a few questions about these valves.

As I understand the advertising, the valves are supposed to function by preventing microbial contamination of the tap hole.

As I review the design, however, I note that the check ball is not spring loaded, which means that during times of low or zero net vacuum, the tap hole is fluidly connected to lines when there is no flow out of the tap. Given that many bacteria are motile, and given that bacteria in a fluid system that are not motile will diffuse, bacteria will move upstream past the unsealed valve and must be present upstream of the check ball just as in the conventional systems. What's the current theory on what the difference is?

Given that in your check valve paper you indicate that you checked bacterial count in collection containers, and not in the tap hole, why wouldn't bacterial count be about equal, given that lines after the check valve should be equivalently contaminated with bacteria?

Has there been any independent verification that the check valves work at all to improve sap flow? You are an employee of the University, and they hold the patent rights. You are also the inventor. Clearly you have a conflict of interest regarding the effectiveness of the spouts. I'm sure you'll agree that an independent test would be beneficial to demonstrate whether these taps improve performance at all and, if so, how much.

If no independent verification exists at all, are you aware of any plans of other researchers to attempt to duplicate your results?

[adk1]

Yikes, maybe this should have been sent via PM:-|

[wdchuck]

Dr Tim sure gets dumped on enough- if you want independent verification, just ask around- as an fyi- I got a 50% increase in production last year by replacing my old 5/16 with check valves, maybe a third to a half got new drops. I'm willing to trust the research, when everyone else around here was having a mediocre year.

[Frank Ivy]

Why on earth should it have been sent by private message?

Fact is, there is a huge amount of what us lawyers call "puffing" on the Leader site. They are not expressly guaranteeing that the check valve will give you more sap, but they are quoting anecdotal reports, like this:

"During the 2009 maple season 12,000 of the Check Valve Spout Adapters were tested . . . [t]he common theme amongst all of the maple syrup producers who tested the adapters for us was that . . . at the end of the maple season the Leader Check Valve Adapter was severly [sic] out performing any of their other plastic tubing systems."

Certainly not a legal warranty, but a bold claim nonetheless.

Obviously Leader has a conflict of interest because they are selling the units.

As far as I can tell, the only scientific evidence that these things work at all has been provided by an employee of the institution that holds the patent rights on the valve.

As an attorney, I assess conflicts of interest all the time. It's not a question of honesty, it's simply a question of checks and balances. Sure, I can take a husband and wife who are getting divorced and represent both of them, but there is zero doubt I have a conflict of interest.

Further, given that these valves are all the rage, it seems, and given that they represent a very large mark up in price, is it really your contention that this shouldn't be discussed freely and openly on a board frequented by folks who make their living using these things? I hope it's not.

[Frank Ivy]

I got a 50% increase in production last year by replacing my old 5/16 with check valves, maybe a third to a half got new drops. I'm willing to trust the research, when everyone else around here was having a mediocre year.

It's not a question of trust. That's the beauty of science. When those New Mexico guys came out with cold fusion a few years back, it wasn't a question of trust. It was a question of verification. They really thought they had fusion in a bottle. I believed that they thought that.

Regarding your increase in production, what was your method? Did you tap 1/2 your trees with the check valve and half without and then compare results, with every other part of the system the same? If not, then, sorry, your results are not evidence.

[wdchuck]

OK frank, Yes, I did do one system with check valves and left the other with old spouts...50% more production- thats my story and I'm stickin with it. Cynicism over new technology has cost me a lot of money over the years. And before you ask, I am familiar with standard methods of scientific research, and attempt to at least come close where possible.

[Frank Ivy]

50% more Chuck? Does that seem reasonable to you? Seriously? Even Dr. Perkin's study only estimated about 20 to 25%.
To be clear, I'm not calling you a liar - I'm simply saying that your technique and conclusions should be checked.

[red maples]

Easy guys.... easy!!!

Now I am no expert, I am switching over to the CV's this year. Why? If you look at the number from the study of the check valves most had a higher than average year and their taps holes produced for a longer time resulting in more sap per tap. All of the evidence points in the direction of more sap for your $.

I am very skeptical of new products and gadgets, and there is no real guarentee or warrenty as far as how much better your trees will perform.

From my observations and looking at the numbers from the studies which seems has been going on for a few years.


1. Reusing old spout...they are loaded with bacteria so you are adding those "microbes" to the tap hole as soon as you set the spout. Granted we aren't working in a steril evironment and there will be bacteria present.

2. with a standard spout under vacuum you will have more of a chance to get those microbes back into the sap hole. Will some get by the the ball yes I am sure but the percentage of microbes HAS to be lower, slowing the process of the hole "closing up".

The study seems to have been done on a large scale and has been on the market for a season and with the increase in sap that people are are claiming why not give it a shot.

Ease up on laywer stuff we have fun here. :) just my 2 cents

[Thad Blaisdell]

As I understand the advertising, the valves are supposed to function by preventing microbial contamination of the tap hole.

As I review the design, however, I note that the check ball is not spring loaded, which means that during times of low or zero net vacuum, the tap hole is fluidly connected to lines when there is no flow out of the tap.

Has there been any independent verification that the check valves work at all to improve sap flow? You are an employee of the University, and they hold the patent rights. You are also the inventor. Clearly you have a conflict of interest regarding the effectiveness of the spouts. I'm sure you'll agree that an independent test would be beneficial to demonstrate whether these taps improve performance at all and, if so, how much.


WOW.... Frank..... you must be one hell of a good lawyer, because from what I see you dont know squat about sugaring. You are not by chance a politician are you? Because that would explain a lot to me.

Anyway,,,,,the valves are not there to "prevent" bacteria. They are there to reduce.

Secondly, in a vacuum system the only time there is no vacuum is when everything is frozen up. I guarantee that microbes are not swimming uphill at that time. Most people with vacuum will have vacuum running all the time or a system that automatically turn on when it starts. The ball valve is to prevent surges back into the tap hole.

Thirdly, I believe you will find if you look (at all) that Cornell did some research all on their very own, and guess what I dont think that they hold the patent on them.

And now in closing ..............

[wdchuck]

Yes Frank, 50%! I was skeptical too, but I beat my previous best by that much. Added check valves, about half of them got new drops, and what's really strange, I had to use a backup vacuum pump for the last half of the season that wasnt pulling very high vacuum levels............Believe me, I dont mean to start a pissing match with you, but my results dont lie- I was just as skeptical as you are, and those spouts were my only significant change. If you didnt have vacuum around this area last year, you didnt have a very good year. If you did, things were OK. ...and my reults were surprising even to me- oh , and I believe the UVM research does show results similar to mine when the entire drop is replaced.If I'm wrong, I'll admit it now, but I dont think I am.

[Brian Ryther]

Last season I ran 4 seperate releaser stations. 3 releasers had CV's. 1 did not. Releaser 1, 2, 3 ran 24.8, 23.10, and 26.64 gallons of sap respectivly. Releaser #4 without cv's ran 17.36 gallons of sap per tap. You better believe releaser #4 has CV's this year.

[mountainvan]

Cornell, steve childs, did a study of old used spiles, new spiles and drops, cv adaptors, and antimicrobial spiles. new spile and drop almost doubled sap over old used. cv and antimicrobial did up to 85% more than old used. I was skeptical last year of the cv mainly because of cheap plastic used to make them. after seeing cornells study I'm trying some out, plus more antimicrobial which did well with me last year.I do trust cornell more since they don't make money from the products, they just do the science. now it just needs to warm up a bit so I can get some sap.

[collinsmapleman2012]

i also conducted a study at our school through steve childs. we ran 2 canisters, each had 5 taps and was quick connected to the mainline for vac. we used 5 trees, each tree had 2 taps, one went to each canister. one canister had cv's with new drops the other had old taps and drops. both had probably the most nasty laterals you will ever see, and that just helped the study for cv's. throughout the season, the cv's always had more sap in their canisters, and some days they would have 2-3 times the amount of sap. also, the treee saver lines had all dried up when we pulled them, and the cv's were still running. thats proof enough for me.

[Frank Ivy]

Sounds like a lot of good experiences with the check valves. Awesome.

I'm going to try to dig up that Cornell study and read it. If anybody has it, or a cite to it, please let me know.

Regarding the bacteria causes hole closure thing, I'm not convinced of it until I see some evidence of it. The 1955 study cited is junk and proves nothing.

BTW - I was trained in molecular biology and microbiology - the lawyer thing just came later.

[DrTimPerkins]

Good doctor, I have a few questions about these valves.

Hello Frank....Happy to answer any questions you have.....although I'm not checking this site much these days (too busy with preparations for the impending season)


As I understand the advertising, the valves are supposed to function by preventing microbial contamination of the tap hole.

Not prevent....delay. Nothing will totally prevent eventual microbial contamination. All the CV does is delay the backflow of microbe contaminated sap into the taphole, which reduces taphole "drying", resulting in more sap.


As I review the design, however, I note that the check ball is not spring loaded, which means that during times of low or zero net vacuum, the tap hole is fluidly connected to lines when there is no flow out of the tap.

Several studies were done decades ago looking at spring loaded and rubber check-valves. None of these worked due to the back-pressure they exert on the taphole. Since sap often flows out under low pressure conditions, this was found to significantly reduce sap yield. Not good. Realistically....if there is liquid in the lines....the vacuum should be on, creating a gradient of negative pressure from the tree to the releaser, with net movement of sap AWAY from the taphole. If that isnt' happening....you've got other problems going on.


Given that many bacteria are motile, and given that bacteria in a fluid system that are not motile will diffuse, bacteria will move upstream past the unsealed valve and must be present upstream of the check ball just as in the conventional systems. What's the current theory on what the difference is?

The wound response of maple trees is proportional to not only the presence of bacteria, but also the amount of bacteria, in the taphole. We are not the first to recognize this. It's been well known since the 1950s (and the reason that paraformaldehyde was invented). When you get strong backflow, during periods of leaks or other events, or during the refreeze phase of the system (sap uptake), you get a lot of microbial contamination of the taphole. Sap moves backward, and bacteria collects in the taphole. The wood acts almost like a filter....sap goes into the tree, microbes collect on the inner surface of the taphole. This induces a strong wound response (taphole drying). Bacteria motility, while possible, is very low during the cold periods. Some bacteria getting into the taphole is OK and impossible to control....a lot getting in is very bad.


Given that in your check valve paper you indicate that you checked bacterial count in collection containers, and not in the tap hole, why wouldn't bacterial count be about equal, given that lines after the check valve should be equivalently contaminated with bacteria?

Not sure I understand your question, however there is less bacteria in the collection vessel because there is less backward movement of sap. If sap doesn't move backward, all the bacteria present in the line isn't flushed back toward the taphole (or the collection vessel).


Has there been any independent verification that the check valves work at all to improve sap flow?

Yes. See the research of Steve Childs (Cornell Univ). If anything, he found far greater improvements in sap yield than we did. This is because he used far older (and thus presumably more contaminated) tubing. The more contaminated the tubing, the greater the effect.


You are an employee of the University, and they hold the patent rights. You are also the inventor. Clearly you have a conflict of interest regarding the effectiveness of the spouts.

Absolutely true....and nothing that I hide. In fact I often start my presentations by sharing that fact. Believe me....I'm not about to retire on my earnings from the CV adapter. The income is far less than 10% of my salary. Not enough for me to ruin my reputation over.


I'm sure you'll agree that an independent test would be beneficial to demonstrate whether these taps improve performance at all and, if so, how much. If no independent verification exists at all, are you aware of any plans of other researchers to attempt to duplicate your results?

Steve Childs has researched them, and found even more positive benefits than I report. The only other study I am aware of (please note that I don't call this "study" research) is one by Centre Acer in Quebec. This was actually set up and funded by CDL. It found no difference. The reason why.....they used new mainline, new lateral line, and drop lines that had been used 2 yrs (and were thus only "light-moderately" contaminated). However, the stored those lines for 2 yrs in a dry garage. Our research shows that such storage kills the microorganisms in those lines (they fall below the critical drying point). Therefore, they essentially had a totally brand new system. Furthermore, it was NOT replicated. There was one line of CV adapters and one line of standard adapters. It is not possible to do any statistics on a sample size of 1....therefore no statistical inference and no conclusions can be drawn from this study. Finally....there study ran just over 3 weeks. This is just about the time that you begin to see the effect of CVs begin. When they got to that point....they stopped the study. Lots of other odd things about that study as well....they shut the vacuum off each night, we don't know how they cleaned the droplines they stored for 2 yrs, they pulled spouts a few times during the season to check microbial content (thus contaminating all of them). Altogether a very poor bit of research (in my opinion). And like you suggest...they too were biased (due to the fact that a competitor set up and funded the work).

Feel absolutely free to ask any questions you want.

Even better....ask any OTHER company to show you their research on annual use spouts, seasonal spouts, replaceable droplines, antimicrobial spouts....and see what you get. NOTHING! We've done 3 yrs of rigorous scientific work on these, including 2 yrs before a product was even released. That is exactly 3 yrs more than any other spout has gotten. So I welcome questions....but respectfully ask that you request the others give you the same answers on what they have done. After you've done that....you be the judge.

[Randy Brutkoski]

This is better than listening to npr radio.

[Thad Blaisdell]

BTW.... I was trained old school. I dont start insulting other people with out a darn good reason. You start talking **** about one of the people who is trying to help the sugarmakers with no personal gain. WTF (I can abbreviate too). I have met Dr. Tim, I do not believe that he is the kind of person that would promote anything or put his name behind something that he did not feel 100% about. Now you come on here and start running your gums about something that you have not even done your homework on, not in an inquisitive way, but in a rude, snobby sort of beat your neighbors cat kind of way. Then you start telling everybody.... hey look I'm a microbiological lawyer. Is this your way of saying my dad can beat up your dad?

I have only one question for you....... Do you even make maple syrup?

[lpakiz]

Well said, Thad!!

[CaseysSugarHouse]

I agree randy

[collinsmapleman2012]

wow this is one of those threads you wonder why they dont just delete it lol

[Rossell's Sugar Camp]

Does the ceo of aunt jemima have a maple trader?

[markcasper]

Mr Ivy, you should have taken up constitutional law, I here there is a big and growing need for them right now.

[Asian Long Horned Beetle]

Mountainvan, after last year I never thought you would use check valves by the way you bashed them. I think you owe Dr. Tim an apology. Did they ever come up with any hard facts about the antimicrobial spout? Because I don't see anything about it in the maple world. I was just about to buy 1,000,000 antimicrobial spouts, but now I'll go with the CV's just because you say they are as good. I just wish everyone would accept Dr. Tim as the maple savior of our time. May God have mercy on your soul.

[3rdgen.maple]

He"s back. This guy did the same thing last year with another thread. He came on the trader and just insulted us. The thread even got shut down. So I ask this why is he still a member???????

[spud]

If stupid people would stop breeding, the franks of this world would die out. Someone needs to put a CV on franks little spout to stop the madness. I really doubt frank is a lawyer. Frank fits the profile of a lonely middle aged man with a inflatable friend. :o

[lmathews]

Isn't bickering fun.I sit and mostly read posts,reply at times and I always can get a kick out of you guys.

Good luck to all this season!CV or not.

[OGDENS SUGAR BUSH]

Isn't bickering fun.I sit and mostly read posts,reply at times and I always can get a kick out of you guys.

Good luck to all this season!CV or not.

good cheap entertainment, FRANK has an opinion just like everyone else

[len]

I'm new here, and this might be risky,
but somethings come to mind that I thought that I'd share:

Dueling_Spiles

A man named Frank_Ivy, he had come to town
He questioned the Good Doctor, and put him down
Says his ways are not science, but that of greed
It's all puffing you know, which lacks good steed
Searched research papers, he states are only a spoof
They lack what his training would suggest- sufficient proof
But lacking his own survey, Frank_Ivy did not follow
His questions become dubious, for his intentions seem hollow
A good survey he need
To give sufficient proof indeed
Follow the ways of good science, for which he must know
Will give a better harvest, for the seeds that he'll sow
A good survey is important, the way a must
For the results are good data, for which he'll trust
Upon himself, a real world survey he need
To review that data, from his efforts indeed!

Hope the season goes well- Peace!

[BryanEx]

As an attorney..
As an attorney your posts only serve to reinforce my opinion of attorneys and the legal system in general. That being said, you are entitled to question the research and practices of the maple industry no mater how misguided your statistics and research may be. Just be advised that should your posts cross the line of becoming personal in nature that the site moderators will step in.

To all other Maple Trader members - Don't feed the trolls! :rolleyes:

[wdchuck]

You're right!!- dont feed trolls!!....and I was one of the earliest of offenders on this thread. Sometimes I just feel compelled to open my big mouth...........sorry....

[red maples]

He"s back. This guy did the same thing last year with another thread. He came on the trader and just insulted us. The thread even got shut down. So I ask this why is he still a member???????

Yes I do remember that and I went back to look through his Threads he started and it wasn't there. I didn't realize it got removed!!!!

[johnallin]

Mr. Frank Ivy, First I am not "Dude".
I think you were implying that plastic can't speak.......but that's not the issue.

In the six short weeks that you have been posting on this site, it appears that you have a knack for rubbing folks the wrong way. I am one of them.

This is a wonderful place for information on maple syrup and, in my opinion, is not a place for confrontation.

Please do this forum a favor and keep it to Maple and leave out the verbal attacks and nit picking. There are places for that and this is not one of them.
Keep it simple, keep it maple or keep to your self.

Sadly it seems that mr frank ivy is back... this time as a lawyer and scientist. Perhaps he has been thrown off one of the other boards and thought he'd take another run at us.

Good Night Frank, and thanks for the "visit", but don't hurry back.

[Brent]

As I review the design, however, I note that the check ball is not spring loaded, which means that during times of low or zero net vacuum, the tap hole is fluidly connected to lines when there is no flow out of the tap.

If you release your vacuum at night there will be a surge backward in the lines and into the tap hole because the tree has negative pressure in the region of the tap hole.
This surge is more than enough to cause the ball to seal with very little sap actually moving into the tap hole, and what sap does move back, should be very fresh and relatively clean. The balls are extremely light, have very little inertia and move very easily.

[Beweller]

Frank, You confuse science with commerce. No one in their right mind having a potentially valuable discovery/development is going to ask for independent confirmation. That is great and necessary if your objective is the Nobel prize, but absolute death for a potential commercial product.

[red maples]

I am looking at this thread to just get a laugh now!!!

[Rossell's Sugar Camp]

I think that almost everyone on maple trader accepts Dr Tim's oppinion and advice. Frank Owes him an appology. And thanks for all the advice you gave me Dr. Tim.

[220 maple]

Frank,
I think we got a law suit. The problem with these check valves they create more sap, no science just fact! They cause me untold stress, tanks over flowing, lack of sleep, fear of not being able to sell the extra syrup. Season lasting longer than past seasons. Maybe even Divorce because of the extra boiling required. The list of problems like this goes on and on. It smells ripe for a team of lawyers.

Mark 220 Maple
proud user of Leader Check Valves

[lmathews]

And the entertainment still continues.

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

Unfortunately about any time he gets involved in a posts is to start attacking other people and making himself look smarter than anyone else. Let's keep these post and forum like the Air over fire thread, it has a few hundred replies and every one has been tremendous, not the slightest off color post or attack in any of them.

[green4310]

Unfortunately about any time he gets involved in a posts is to start attacking other people and making himself look smarter than anyone else. Let's keep these post and forum like the Air over fire thread, it has a few hundred replies and every one has been tremendous, not the slightest off color post or attack in any of them.
__________________
Brandon

Excellant post and good advice. I like the new Brandon.

The old one was not a nice person, when he made comments like this.


It is the same attitude as so many of these lazy good for nothing people in New Orleans have taken. They lived in project housing before this happened and didn't pay any taxes, and when something happens, they cry for Uncle Sam. God blesses those who help themselves and those idiots down there are a good example. They cry for help and then shoot at the ones that come and help them. They brought a bus load of them up here clear from New Orleans and put them up in a nearly new state of the art Natl guard training center and what did the pieces of trash do, they trashed the place and tore it up.

I know not everyone can help themselves and I help those kind of people quite often. I wouldn't mind going and cutting wood for someone who couldn't do it. It makes my blood boil when I think about how much of my paycheck goes to support "rats, trash and these other beuracrats".

Enough said, have a good day. 8O


I TOO AM JUST AS GUILTY FOR SOME OF THE STUPID A$$HOLE REMARKS THAT I HAVE MADE AND FOR THAT I APPOLOGIZE TO ALL......Green

[ennismaple]

"Don't feed the trolls." LMAO - One of the best quotes on here in a while!

Great minds discuss ideas.
Average minds discuss events.
Small minds discuss people.
Eleanor Roosevelt

Let's get back to discussing ideas!

[mapleack]

Pretty quiet, maybe Frank has nothing left after the good Dr. gave him the smackdown. Frank, if you are still around, why don't you just do your own study, convince yourself one way or the other and be done with it.

[whalems]

I think a troll just got feed:lol:

[mapleack]

I think a troll just got feed:lol:

Sorry, couldn't help it. :)

[220 maple]

Sorry Fellow Traders,
I can not resist adding humor to my posts sometimes, I still think at the pace the water is running from those check valves so far this season, if Frank and his team of lawyer took my case we could be part owners of Leader with the right jury, who knows he could make such a name for himself that they appoint him as assistiant provost at the University of Vermont. He then would have the ability to stop the evil check valves and the false claims they make about them, the trees would be happy because they could save that water for another year and I would have made less syrup last year. OH HOW HAPPY WE WOULD BE!

Mark 220 Maple
Misled Check Valve user

[Ridgeland Farm]

There was a group of lawyers that sued a company called scentlok which makes hunting clothing that eliminates scent. They did so because the company's slogan was along the lines of thier product blocked all human odor. So these lawyers went after them for false advertising and won because after test were done the product only blocked over 99% of odor. That group of lawyers I think were the only ones in the country happy with the outcome. But the product works. Those type of people will do anything to make money. Its sad. So with all that said my point I wanted to originally say is who really cares about the science of it? Yeah its nice to know how it all works and the science is a big selling point when you are first introducing a product but in the end I think all most of us care about is the results. CV's have been tested by a lot of producers and the majority say it improved yeild. Thats what matters to me. And that seems to back up Dr. Perkins findings. And for those that doubt the CV's there is a simple solution. Dont use them and stop complaining!!!!! JMO

Stefan

[adk1]

I bought these and was wondering if you tap them in the hole first then snap in the stubby spout? or put them together then tap it all in at once?

[Thad Blaisdell]

directions come in every bag..... Tap in first then put on stubby.

[adk1]

Yeah, I guess they probably are in the bag! good point!

[Flat Lander Sugaring]

directions come in every bag..... Tap in first then put on stubby.

always having to teach them NY'ers:D

[Randy Brutkoski]

You spent alot of money on spouts for not having vacuum. Especialy for being new tubing with no bacteria in in the lines. Just wondering, do you have your mainlines yet?

[3rdgen.maple]

Randy I questioned this about 3 months ago lol. Hard to teach a new dog old tricks I guess.

[adk1]

yeah, I understand that. But, I planned on using them starting year two for sure. And I also plan on using only 5/16" spouts. So Iwould have had to buy the 5/16" taps up front, then buy the 7/16" stubbies/CV's etc anywyas.

From what I ahve read, the CV was designed for vac. But, it cant hurt with gravity either. Really not alot of $$ for only having to buy 120 of them.

My guess is that I will be installing vac within the next 5 years.

[3rdgen.maple]

If your installing vac in 5 years i would plan it out that way now. No sense in going back and tearing it all apart to redo it.

[adk1]

yeah, I hear you there. Planning on it. will have alot more lats but that is ok. I have enough line and saddles already. Will probably run no more than 10, as I have seep grade already. I ahve alot of reds mixed in that is why I am thinking vac in the "near" future

[Daryl]

With your red's I would really look at vacuum as soon as possible. You will be suprised at the difference in the amount of sap with and without vac.:)
Daryl

[adk1]

yeah I hear ya, this will be my viery first year, dont know what to expect, but know I cant afford to put vac in right now..have had to buy Everything else!

Next year will be new insulated front door on the evap and forced air blower.

[oneoldsap]

You can pick up an old dairy pump for very little money ! Don't wait 5 years or you will be kicking yourself in the butt for not doing it yesterday . Any vacuum is better than none ! JMHO

[3rdgen.maple]

ADK1 it has been said on here many times and it is very very true, your syrup and money is made in the woods. I understand the financial deal as we all have bigger dreams than brains or money. Get done what you can afford, setup your bush for future vac, sell some syrup and put the cash back into it, consider vac over the arch mods first. Then mod the arch. The evaporator you have as it sits will handle those taps on vac. I would get the woods done first and then turn the money into evap upgrades etc. Your going to find out real fast that once you start playing with upgrades in the sugarhouse it will never end and theres only one real upgrade for the woods and thats vac.

[adk1]

ADK1 it has been said on here many times and it is very very true, your syrup and money is made in the woods. I understand the financial deal as we all have bigger dreams than brains or money. Get done what you can afford, setup your bush for future vac, sell some syrup and put the cash back into it, consider vac over the arch mods first. Then mod the arch. The evaporator you have as it sits will handle those taps on vac. I would get the woods done first and then turn the money into evap upgrades etc. Your going to find out real fast that once you start playing with upgrades in the sugarhouse it will never end and theres only one real upgrade for the woods and thats vac.

Very good points. thanks for the info. That clears up alot of my questions.!

[maple flats]

Good doctor, I have a few questions about these valves.

As I understand the advertising, the valves are supposed to function by preventing microbial contamination of the tap hole.

As I review the design, however, I note that the check ball is not spring loaded, which means that during times of low or zero net vacuum, the tap hole is fluidly connected to lines when there is no flow out of the tap. Given that many bacteria are motile, and given that bacteria in a fluid system that are not motile will diffuse, bacteria will move upstream past the unsealed valve and must be present upstream of the check ball just as in the conventional systems. What's the current theory on what the difference is?

Given that in your check valve paper you indicate that you checked bacterial count in collection containers, and not in the tap hole, why wouldn't bacterial count be about equal, given that lines after the check valve should be equivalently contaminated with bacteria?

Has there been any independent verification that the check valves work at all to improve sap flow? You are an employee of the University, and they hold the patent rights. You are also the inventor. Clearly you have a conflict of interest regarding the effectiveness of the spouts. I'm sure you'll agree that an independent test would be beneficial to demonstrate whether these taps improve performance at all and, if so, how much.

If no independent verification exists at all, are you aware of any plans of other researchers to attempt to duplicate your results?

Frank, if you are a non believer, just stand in the woods when the vacuum is shut off. The check balls snapping to seal will sound like 22's being shot. That should convince you. Secondly, When the vacuum is shut off and the lines haven't frozen first, the tap area in the tree will have a negative pressure (vacuum), this is what closes the ball, and does it very fast. If you are not on a releaser but rather use a vacuum tank the vac will go down slower, but you can still hear them close, but not as loud. A remedy for this if you truly want to get top yield would be either to never shut off the vacuum unless the lines are frozen solid, or create a sudden vac drop by opening the tank soon after cutting the vacuum. This only applies to those using a vacuum tank instead of a releaser.
As for independent tests, we maple producers who have used them are one form of test. I for one will never tap without using a check valve (vacuum systems only) until something even better is developed.

[3rdgen.maple]

Hey Mapleflats please dont get this guy going again. I think we all have pushed him away from this site a long time ago. He argued and jabbed everyone on every post. I know Im sure glad he hasnt been around on here.

[adk1]

Yeah I totally agree with that. Lawyers........

[maple flats]

Sorry guys. I won't shake his cage.

[red maples]

thanks.... yeah...he hasn't been here in while hopefully he won't be back!!! I am sure he will say something to get everybody going again I just ignore his posts now!!!

[adk1]

He will strike when the opportunity is right. He is methodical. Wait till about oh March when everyone and their brothers cousin is on this board.

[3rdgen.maple]

lol I was thinking the same thing ADK

[adk1]

This post was about check valves right! haha. I cant wait to try them out. I might be crazy for buying them for the very first year when everything is new but hey, cant hurt in the end!

[heus]

This post was about check valves right! haha. I cant wait to try them out. I might be crazy for buying them for the very first year when everything is new but hey, cant hurt in the end!

Not really. If you read back through the entire thread you will see it was about Frank Ivy challenging Dr. Perkins and as a result getting schooled by the doctor.