Sap Lifting (Please reply)

[Rossell's Sugar Camp]

What is the best way to lift sap.I have heard of sap ladders where its just 2, 6-way star fittings and 5/16 tubing going between. And also the expensive systems leader sells. I only have to lift it 2 or 3 feet.

[Randy Brutkoski]

If you are only going a couple of feet, then definatly do the ladder. Remember that if you use a 6 star, that is good for 60 taps, 2, 6 stars are good for 120 taps and so on. If you have 75 taps you should go to 2 stars. Its good to go more stars than fewer.

[Randy Brutkoski]

Also remember that your stars on your lower main line have to be facing the ground and your upper main line(lift liine) the stars have to be on top facing the sky. And have a ball valve on the end of your lower mainline so you can crack it open to get the sap moving up the ladder. You will know how much you will have to crack it just by wacthing the sap go up the 5/16. Hope this helps.

[Haynes Forest Products]

Why does lowering the vacuum level in the lower mainline and introducing air in a system that already has gases from the trees and air from leaks. I dont have a valve on a 4 star system and there is plenty of sap movement.

[Randy Brutkoski]

If you dont have a valve to let air in that means you have a vacuum leak on that line most of the time.

[Randy Brutkoski]

You also want that ball valve so you can open it up at the end of the season to flush the left over sap that doesnt go up the ladder.

[3rdgen.maple]

If you are only going a couple of feet, then definatly do the ladder. Remember that if you use a 6 star, that is good for 60 taps, 2, 6 stars are good for 120 taps and so on. If you have 75 taps you should go to 2 stars. Its good to go more stars than fewer.

Just a question????? With the strive for 5 on laterals why would a 6 star be good for 60 taps, seems like it would be more like 5 per line on a star lift. 60 seems like it would be more like strive for 10.

[Randy Brutkoski]

Rule of thumb is 10 taps per 5/16 on a ladder. It has nothing to do with the strive for 5.

[Randy Brutkoski]

On a lateral 5 or less is what you want. You are kind of right about the strive for 10 rule on a sap ladder.

[3rdgen.maple]

Thanks Randy I was just thinking that for optimal performance with 5 taps on a lateral it just made sense thinking the same for a 5/16 star lift. Just was curious is all. I put in a 6 star lift today and it only has 37 taps on the lower mainline anyways.

[Randy Brutkoski]

Which is perfectly fine. Its better to have more vacuum than not enough

[Brian Ryther]

Which is perfectly fine. Its better to have more vacuum than not enough

Randy, If you want the most vacuum then do not open the ball valve to introduce air to the ladder. The sap will make it's way up the ladder without vac leaks. The trees are giving enough gass to slug flow the sap up the ladder. The cracked ball valve just compromises the vac levels in the rest of the system.

[ennismaple]

Randy, If you want the most vacuum then do not open the ball valve to introduce air to the ladder. The sap will make it's way up the ladder without vac leaks. The trees are giving enough gass to slug flow the sap up the ladder. The cracked ball valve just compromises the vac levels in the rest of the system.

We don't vent our sap ladders either and they work fine. We do have a valve for washing up.

[Haynes Forest Products]

Randy post Number 5 makes no sense to me could you explain Im with Brian and Ennismaple when it comes to no open valves..........No system is completly air tight unless your sealing your taps with gasket sealer and dont allow your trees to fart:)

[Thompson's Tree Farm]

I'm with the crowd that doesn't vent ladders. I may have leaks but I maintain vacuum of 26" in one system and 24" in the other so the leaks can't be too bad. Ladders work fine, you just don't see sap shooting up them. I have one line where sap goes through 6 ladders before getting to the releaser. I have 22" at the extreme end of that line.

[Randy Brutkoski]

Then please tell me why last year on a 7 to 8 foot ladder the sap would not go up the ladder unless it was slightly vented. Actually just a razor blade slit in the 3/4.

[maple flats]

As I understand it, all systems have some leaks, the object is to try to eliminate them all. In reality, even if you have zero leaks the line needing a sap ladder is never just sap, trees give off gases that are in the lines, look at any lateral, the bubbles are either a leak or if slow moving, they are gasses from the tree (predominately carbon dioxide I believe) Those bubbles will go up the ladder with the sap, looking like air bubbles, no extra incoming air needed.

[Brian Ryther]

Randy,
The best thing you can do is just walk away. You feel good about you laders when you vent them because you see instant results with sap being lifted up - up and away. I have found that when you look at the sap total #'s (sap/tap) youl do not loose anything when you do not vent the ladders. A vent = a major leak = vac loss for the rest of the system, no matter how small you vent is. Just walk away and collect your sap. Stop watching the sap ladders and watch the releasers. They are just as much fun to watch.

[Monster Maples]

Randy,
I vent mine. I have a two pipe ladder, and the sap will go much better with it vented. I have tried it both ways, vented and non vented. I have a ball valve on mine and I just barely turn it. Just that little air makes the sap really shoot up the ladder. Whether you are supposed to vent or not, I don't really care. I know what works for my ladder, might not work for everyone.

[Haynes Forest Products]

Now I will admit that I will walk back in the woods and stare at the ladder like it was a 1950's Rockola Jukebox. Im not trying to dog anyone BUT if your judging sap flow by the gas bubbles ( Im counting air as a gas) could we be using the wrong indicator. If you have a long column of sap and then a gas bubble moving slowly up the ladder is that better than a buch of fast moving bubbles with small amouts of sap??? I vote for the slow moving sap with fewer gas bubbles.

[3rdgen.maple]

I think a test is in order to put the debate to rest. Lets say we time a releaser dump with the valve letting in air versus a closed system and it should tell the story of what works the best. Just do the test at the same time as sap flow would be consistant. I will personally be trying it out. A visual look can be deceiving from the actuall results of which gets you the sap the fastest. There where some videos on youtube where a member on here showed a 6 star lift with the valve closed and then he opened it and claimed better sap lift but I got to be honest all i seen when he cracked the valve was a whole lot of bubbles running up the pipe versus sap.

[ennismaple]

I think a test is in order to put the debate to rest. Lets say we time a releaser dump with the valve letting in air versus a closed system and it should tell the story of what works the best. Just do the test at the same time as sap flow would be consistant. I will personally be trying it out. A visual look can be deceiving from the actuall results of which gets you the sap the fastest. There where some videos on youtube where a member on here showed a 6 star lift with the valve closed and then he opened it and claimed better sap lift but I got to be honest all i seen when he cracked the valve was a whole lot of bubbles running up the pipe versus sap.

The other thing that must be taken into account is how much does that cracked valve affect the vacuum in the rest of your woods. In my mind, it doesn't make sense to lower the overall vacuum by cracking the valve open to speed up the sap ladder for 30-50 taps when the rest of your bush will produce 5% less sap per 1" Hg that the vacuum level is lowered. If you're running a pump that has waaaay more CFM's than you need and have an otherwise tight tubing system it may be fine. I've accepted that the taps on my sap ladders will produce less sap per tap than the rest of the bush - but it's still better than not tapping those trees!

[Randy Brutkoski]

Venting doesnt really affect my inches of vacuum because like you said, if you have plenty of cfm's you will probably be ok. My pump is 75 cfm and it is running a 4500 tap bush, which is more than enough.

[maplwrks]

If you have a leak, whether induced or not, has an impact on overall vacuum levels. Sap ladders will work if they are not vented---if you watch them for very long though, they will drive you nuts! I won't compromise my entire system for a sap ladder

[Brent]

Really guys, who gives a hoot how fast it goes up.
It will all go up if more sap comes out of the taps.
With or without bubbles.
With or without induced leaks.
You don't get something for nothing here.
End of story.

[3rdgen.maple]

I give a hoot. I want to know the best most effecient way to run a sapladder. Whats wrong with that? This is a learning curve I have and some others might as well, wrong right or indifferent it is good knowledge to have and a friendly debate amongst fellow male producers is hurting what?

[sapman]

I usually look at the stream of sap running away toward the releaser at the top of the ladder to gauge how well it's lifting. Sometimes it looks like nothing's happening in the ladder, but you see it moving overhead.

In my case, I really need it to be lifting, since 2/3 of my bush comes in on ladders!

[whiteout]

Is it posible to ladder up 6' 250 taps with just stars? 5 stars top and bottom?

[Brent]

3rdgen
don't take the comment the wrong way. sorry

but the simple fact is that the sap will go up the tube / ladder with or without bubbles.

introducing bubbles under almost all normal circumstances will reduce efficiency.

in almost all situations, the tree and leakage will introduce more bubbles than we want or need.

fast moving bubbles do not mean the ladder is working better. It means you are losing vac. I look for fast moving bubbles throughout the line to find leaks.

[treefinder]

i use to do it with a vent ,but then i relized that i wasn't watching the sap go up the ladder i was watching the air race up it. it really drove me nuts watching it so i closed the vent and walked away. i just couldn't understand why i would spend an hour looking for leaks and then turn around a cause one.its yours so you can do what you want but my opinion would be to keep it closed.

[syrupkid]

Does anyone have pictures of a non star type sap ladder they built. I may need to build one to lift my sap a few feet so it can make it to the releaser. It will be like 300 trees worth of sap that I am lifting so I dont think a star type ladder would work very well. Also has anyone built their own lift tank thing that the sap flows into before lifting, Leader wants like $300 bucks for one I think, I dont think it would be that hard to build one ot of 6 inch PVC pipe with caps on the ends and the holes where the lines come in sealed with food grade silicone.

[3rdgen.maple]

Brent my apologies as well. After you said sorry, it seems I might have taken your post the wrong way after reading it again. Carry on traders.

[Monster Maples]

The more of these posts I read the more I think about it. I think I am going with you 3rd gen. I am going to drive myself nuts and watch what happens both ways, vented and non vented. (Again) I have more than enough cfm's to compensate for the cracked valve, this is the reason it never bothered me before. Sooo, if it ever warms up guess I will be watching water get sucked up a pipe. Sounds fun!!!! Not quite as fun as watching the releaser dump in the sugarshack though.

[3rdgen.maple]

I hear you there Monster the more I get wrapped up in these threads the more I start to question what I was taught or told and that is a good thing I think. Im just waiting for Dr. Perkins to chime in and shut us all up. But either way Im timing my releaser dumps and adjust from there.

[Brent]

The only study I'm aware of was done in 2002-3 by the Ontario Ministry of Agriculture A link to the document is copied below.

For this discussion there are a couple of things of note
I paraphrase:
- no one ladder system was significantly better than another
- the effectiveness of the lift decreased proportional to the increased amount of venting of outside air. The vacuum loss upstream of the venting was at least 2" Hg.

http://www.ontariomaple.com/index.php?action=display&cat=38&doc=2004_summary_sap_ladder_project-Final_Rep_June_2304.pdf

[Haynes Forest Products]

Whiteout.............YES I run 350 up a 10 foot ladder using stars:) Give it a try and live and learn and come back in the spring and CHIME in on what works and dosent:o

[green4310]

I,m raising 260 taps fifteen feet with a two pipe ladder( one inch) with only around 17 inches vac. I could not believe it would work that well.

[sapman]

My original ladder is a star type, lifting maybe 500 taps these days, 11 feet. Works. My other big one is two-pipe, maybe 600~ taps. Works also. Can't tell yet which does better.
I have pics of the ladders on my website: wcfalpacas.com, under maple. Sorry I didn't get the photos turned right side up yet.

[Rossell's Sugar Camp]

I built 3 vacuum boosters out of aluminum preasure cookers. They work great. And thanks for all the great advice everyone.

[DrTimPerkins]

I hear you there Monster the more I get wrapped up in these threads the more I start to question what I was taught or told and that is a good thing I think. Im just waiting for Dr. Perkins to chime in and shut us all up. But either way Im timing my releaser dumps and adjust from there.

I haven't commented because 1) we don't use any sap ladders, 2) we haven't studied them, and 3) my personal opinion is that if there is any way to avoid using them....do it.

[sweetwoodmaple]

...and, Obviously Mr. Perkins doesn't live in Ohio or other "height challenged" areas! ;) kidding.

I gotta have a few here or I'd be either getting nosebleeds tapping or having to pump and carry sap.

Mine are all the star type and work very well. I can also monitor roughly how much sap is running by seeing how many ladders tubes are moving sap.

[DrTimPerkins]

...and, Obviously Mr. Perkins doesn't live in Ohio or other "height challenged" areas! ;) kidding.

Yes....that is true. :) However you should see some of the tubing systems in Quebec on flat ground. They don't make much use of lifts. A good laser level, good vacuum, and good planning are definite requirements to make it work though.

[sapman]

I would like to see them! So they are running flat, or nearly I assume. Seems like freeze ups would be a problem.

[markct]

I haven't commented because 1) we don't use any sap ladders, 2) we haven't studied them, and 3) my personal opinion is that if there is any way to avoid using them....do it.



so what options do you recomend to avoid using them? i have one in my system and dont know yet what the result will be, but i didnt see any other way to get the trees on tubing without tapping them up 15 ft in the air.

[Haynes Forest Products]

My first year of using 6 star ladders was my best year of sap production so Im sold. I dont drain at the end of the day I just run my vacuum late and start early:)

[james ferguson]

i use stars in 5 lots and they work great 8 to 10 ft lift 1 set of stars per 25 taps also use 2 3/4 pipe in another lot 100 taps lifting 4ft both work great this will be 6yr useing them lot ceaper than buying sap latter

[ennismaple]

Yes....that is true. :) However you should see some of the tubing systems in Quebec on flat ground. They don't make much use of lifts. A good laser level, good vacuum, and good planning are definite requirements to make it work though.

Very true. We had a guy from Quebec do a presentation at our OMSPA meeting last year and he said in some sections of his woods he has 3" of fall per 100' (that's 0.25% for the mathematically challenged). Get the steel super tight and put in lots of posts and it's possible. For the sap ladders we have the only way we could avoid them was to submerse the tanks in the swamp! I doubt that meets food safety protocols...

[DrTimPerkins]

so what options do you recomend to avoid using them? i have one in my system and dont know yet what the result will be, but i didnt see any other way to get the trees on tubing without tapping them up 15 ft in the air.

Careful design and layout is probably the most important thing. Note that I didn't say "don't use them." I said "avoid using them." In some cases, you can't avoid it, however it comes at a cost of lost vacuum down the line. You shouldn't expect to get nearly as good a yield from trees beyond the lift for several reasons.

[sweetwoodmaple]

Yes, there's "no such thing as a free lunch". Lifting liquid requires power and therefore, lessens the "power" up the line.

Just like designing good electrical and hydraulic circuits, I believe this can be planned for and made to work, but it takes larger lines and more vacuum flow.

Hence, with my 7 ladders for 500 taps, I am running a 15 cfm vacuum pump! (and they call me mr. leaky)

As I have mentioned before, I've grown my system from pump stations to vacuum, so I was too lazy to reroute every line, so I put in ladders to make up for it. Not recommended in 20/20 hindsight.

[Asian Long Horned Beetle]

I have a 500 foot mainline running almost level. I use a sap ladder for three feet of height to get it to go into my tank. I was wondering if Dr. Tim knew if I should just let it gradually run uphill for that three foot lift to avoid the sap ladders? I also set up a wet dry line but did not realize I couldn't have a sap ladder. I shut my dry line off. I can't keep a downward slope without losing taps. The sap ladder worked well but I don't know if I was getting maximum vacuum to the 300+ vigorous maples.

[sapman]

From research I've heard (like the Ontario study), I don't think upward slopes work.

Now, when I was laying things out, I asked some which was better; very little to no slope on mainline, or 2% grade and ladders. I was told ladders, and went with it. Now I wonder about it. Maybe make some big changes in the next year if I'm convinced otherwise.

[ennismaple]

From research I've heard (like the Ontario study), I don't think upward slopes work.

Now, when I was laying things out, I asked some which was better; very little to no slope on mainline, or 2% grade and ladders. I was told ladders, and went with it. Now I wonder about it. Maybe make some big changes in the next year if I'm convinced otherwise.

IMHO - A 0.5% slope with tight wire, lots of posts and an oversized mainline is far superior to sap ladders. We only use sap ladders when absoluetely necessary and have even considered dinamite (but didn't do it) to get to the other side of a ridge to avoid a sap ladder!

[sapman]

I have no choice but to ladder up many feet to come in to the releaser, but beyond that, I could get by with far fewer ladders if I want.

[3rdgen.maple]

Okay gents I did the test. well sort of. I fell for the watching sap shoot up the sap ladder and vented 1hg of vac at the end of my mainline. What a mistake. A big mistake. I closed it off this morning and I will tell you my releaser is dumping twice as much and I can visually see the difference in the sap flow at the releaser and coming down the laterals. I was amazed at what 1 hg would gain. I really believe that it isnt the fact that I am pulling 1 more inch of vac but it si my conclusion that it is becasue Im not sucking any air into the system. The 6 star ladder filled right to the top on all 6 lines and I can watch it flowing right up it versus the surging of sap and air in the system. So just to be sure I went back and vented it again and the releaser and laterals are flowing alot less and releaser is dumping half as much. SO close those vents and you will get more sap. This is a mistake I tend to never ever do again. I just doubled sap production because of a very very slight vac loss just so I could see that ladder sucking sap up in surges. I cannot say it enough dont vent that ladder at all.

[sapman]

I made some of the same observations a couple weeks ago on ladders. I was suprised to see that the star ladders kept filling with sap, inching their way upward, till all the fingers reached the top star and a surge went into the upper mainline. All with no introduced air. Glad you posted, 3rdgen, and that I was patient enough to see it work!

[Brent]

My thinking on these ladder issues is that you don't get nothin' for nothin'

If you are trying to lift any object, it takes a certain amount of work regardless is it is sap, water, rocks or a beer.

You have a very limited amount of energy coming down the pipeline from your vac pump.

The only possible way to gain something from a traditional ladder is that if you let in a stream of bubbles, the bubbles will rise and push the liquid up. This can only work in a small diameter tube or the sap will flow down around the sides of the bubble. How much energy can come from a tiny bubble. Not much.

So if you gain a little lift from the bubbles, is it worth the energy it takes to then get the air out of the pipeline ??
I have my doubts. Close it up and let the vacuum suck it up.

[3rdgen.maple]

I made some of the same observations a couple weeks ago on ladders. I was suprised to see that the star ladders kept filling with sap, inching their way upward, till all the fingers reached the top star and a surge went into the upper mainline. All with no introduced air. Glad you posted, 3rdgen, and that I was patient enough to see it work!

Glad you read it and made the change. I was amazed at the difference in sap coming in after I closed off the vents. Im sure there will be skeptics out there on this one as well but the numbers just dont lie. I will never vent it again.

[maple flats]

I have 3 sap ladders on a 550 tap bush. 2 are 2x3/4" and work well, they have between 60-75 taps each and are 7 & 8' respectively. The third is a 1 x 3/4" single pipe, about 30" and about 50 taps. All 3 work well. One is at a wet/dry portion, a second is on a branch that come off the wet dry section and the 3rd is only on a wet line just before the tank, to climb up and get into the vacuum tank. I do not know the vac drops but the flow results all look very good.

[ennismaple]

We started our first multiple lift ladder this weekend. I've been eyeing about 100 taps that got put on the wrong side of the hill along a field edge. They've got good southern exposure, full crowns and are fairly large trees.

By extending the mainline from the existing sap ladder another 50', dropping 7.5 feet in a 2nd ladder, extending the mainline another 50 feet and dropping another 7 feet I can pick all those taps up. We won't get it finished this year but in theory it should work. We plan to make the mainlines on the ladder portions 1" to help vacuum trasfer and see how it goes.