Coming to all of us soon, atleast Vermont

[802maple]

I took this from a notice that was sent me from a reputible packer. I don't have there permission so I will not give the name of the operation.

"The third party food safety auditors that inspect facilities such as our bottling plant are requesting more from suppliers. Producer certification will soon be required to sell your syrup in bulk.
Enclosed is a minimum set of suggested requirements created by a committee of the Vermont Maple Industry Council. I would expect that many additional requirements may be added to this or will follow shortly. In addition to the outline attached, hot and cold running water, suitably well drained floors, hoods for the flue pan and syrup pan and clean, organized sugarhouses are standards I feel should be in place. "

__________________________________________________ _________________________
I can't agree more as being a buyer for years I have seen some of the sugarhouses that syrup is made in and it will only hurt the reputation of maple in general.
__________________________________________________ _________________________


This is some of the attached proposal,I am having to type this so I am going to give a shortened version of what was given as proposal from the committee:


SAP COLLECTING
Sugarmakers using equipment known to have lead in it will have random testing at the expense of the producer
Collecting will not be done in anything plastic that is not food grade. Dry wall buckets etc.
Tin or rusty, painted buckets or tanks will not be allowed.
Tanks should be protected from the weather and animals
No container that has held an allergin such as milk will be allowed without proper cleaning and rinsing
Any cleaning agent used to clean tubing should be designed for that purpose
Compressors used to clean tubing should have a settling bowl to collect oil or any other residues from the pump

Any vacuum system should have a check valve between the pump and the releaser.

SAP FILTERING AND PRECONCENTRATING

Pool filters must use clean sand or food grade diatomaceous earth. Other filters must consist of clean, odor free, food grade materials.

All sugarmakers must take a course in the proper use, storage and disposal of chemicals, and they must demonstrate profiency by a written test after the course is completed. Periodic retesting may be required. The course will cover chemicals which may be used for cleaning tubing and evaporators, as well as for cleaning and storing RO membranes.

Sugarmakers must test whether the cleaning materials are safely removed from the RO, so that they will not contaminate sap.

BOILING
Galvanized boiling pans are forbidden. All evaporators, whether made by a maple equipment manufacturer or "home made" mustbe made with food grade or potable water contact.


SYRUP FILTERING STORAGE AND PACKAGING

Bulk storage containers must be used as they are intended, includeing the use of one way epoxy lined barrels as a single use only, and must be food grade or potable water only.


All syrup should be filtered using industry approved filters and filtering methods. These include the use of mold free, odor free cloth and paper filters, food grade diatamaceous earth, and food grade lubricants for the filter press

Proper coding and record keeping are required for each container that is sold.

SUGARHOUSE SANITATION

Sap and syrup may not contact mold or moldy surfaces anywhere during production

Pesticides, herbicides, fertilizers, etc. must not be kept in the sameroom as sap or syrup. Chemicals used for cleaning maple equipment must be stored in a safe manner
Any petroleum product should be contained in a manner to prevent contamination by spills or fumes anywhere near sap or syrup

The exhaust from a pump or motormust be isolated so that it does not contaminate exposed sap or syrup

Any water which contactsequipment used for the handling or storage of sap or syrup must be potable.

A hand washing station consisting of flowing potable water, soap, and single use towels must be located in the sugarhouse for use prior to handling equipment that contacts sap or syrup.

NOW AGAIN I MUST POINT OUT THAT THE PROPOSAL IS A PROPOSAL AND ONLY THAT, BUT I MUST SAY THAT I AGREE WITH MOST OF WHAT IS THERE, AFTER ALL WE ARE MAKING A FOOD PRODUCT

Also I am not responsible for typo's

[maplwrks]

I got my notice from the same reputable packer last week!

[Brian Ryther]

I see no mention of hair nets and beard nets. They are the standard in any food processing plant I have ever worked in.

[802maple]

I see no mention of hair nets and beard nets. They are the standard in any food processing plant I have ever worked in.

I found that interesting that you say that, as I have seen major customers leave when they founfd out that sugarmakers didn't wear hairnets. Of course, I don't have to worry about the hair net much, because you don't have to cover what isn't there, but the beard that is different thing.

[Maplewalnut]

OHHHH boy. As a lot of you know I work full time for a pharmaceutical plant, so very familiar with GMP (Good Manufacturing Practices).

Hairnets and beard covers are periphery. And beleive it or not hairnets are not only for catching falling hair but also sloughed skin from your scalp, so your not exempt Jerry:)
How about shoe covers and disinfectant mats, formalized cleaning procedures including floor drains with documentation and a second signature confirming completion. Disinfectant studies to prove your cleaning agents are effective against a variety of bio-flora, calibrated instruments from an outside firm to make sure your hydrometers,thermomters, ph meters,refractometers are all accurate....

That is not to metion the endless requirements that may be needed for release of product. Should we assign batch numbers for tracking purposes? Track deviations to our process? How would you like to send samples to an independent lab to check density prior to being accepted at a packer?

I personally am comfortable with the controls I have in place to produce a quality product and am inspected yearly but can only imagine what Jerry has seen in his years of work in the field.

As with anything, the answer lies somewhere in the middle.

[Thompson's Tree Farm]

Doesn't sound all that different from what I have had to do to produce and sell milk. While I hate to twist anyone's arm (or have my own twisted), we all know how much damage a single publicized, negative incident can do to us all.
Doug

[3rdgen.maple]

I read a very similar deal as this one 2 years ago and called Bascoms and asked Bruce about it and at the time it was never implemented and just in the talking stages. There is an old thread on it here somewhere. By the sounds of it it is progressing. It is for producers selling bulk to a packer but I have to believe it is only the begining of an industry standard. Is it a bad thing? Maybe maybe not. Couple things come to mind right off. What about the guys with remote sugarhouses that do not have running water? After reading on this site about a 1000 times how guys use garbage cans and hang anything on a tree that will hold sap, using substandard practices to paint seal or fix anything male related I would be afraid to consume their product. So maybe some standards need to be enforced but Like many Im a little reluctant to more laws. Most if not all of it is just plain common sense to begin with.

[802maple]

I read a very similar deal as this one 2 years ago and called Bascoms and asked Bruce about it and at the time it was never implemented and just in the talking stages. There is an old thread on it here somewhere. By the sounds of it it is progressing. It is for producers selling bulk to a packer but I have to believe it is only the begining of an industry standard. Is it a bad thing? Maybe maybe not. Couple things come to mind right off. What about the guys with remote sugarhouses that do not have running water? After reading on this site about a 1000 times how guys use garbage cans and hang anything on a tree that will hold sap, using substandard practices to paint seal or fix anything male related I would be afraid to consume their product. So maybe some standards need to be enforced but Like many Im a little reluctant to more laws. Most if not all of it is just plain common sense to begin with.

Couldn't have said it better myself.
It is still a form of a proposal and not implimented.
I guess I put this in here just to remind people of where things are headed oneday and one should always think about the possibilities when constructing something new and trying to do it right in the first place. It is alot easier to do it right now then to do it later if possible.

[bobbyjake]

the implementation of these suggestions are impossible. Not saying that the intent of several of these items are not progress and worthy, but there is one particular requirement in this list that is absolutely IMPOSSIBLE to meet.

[802maple]

Interested to know which one is impossible?

[PATheron]

I dont really see anything that seems impossable. Maybe they crack down on plastic pvc or something if they really get picky but the tube and everything is all food grade. What is it?

[powerdub]

You know I hate to take up this stance but if it is something that the state has to enforce, fookem, they cant afford it. They cant inspect and enforce the important things. They cant seem to deliver safe roads. I gotta quit before i get on my soap box and totally go off. What the hell Jerry, I tried to stay out your other posts but.....

[802maple]

Calm down Scott, have a Captain and coke, just kidding. I really look at this as common sense and really doesn't need to be implemented. But if given the choice I would much rather have the rules made by us instead of the health department. That will happen if we don't take the lead and try to set the ground rules first. These guidelines are being made up by our own Maple Industry Council. I remember when the lead issue came about and I was a director, the health department, then was ready to put into effect regulations that would have put alot of sugarmakers out of business, but because we policed ourselves they were much easier on the industry.

[vtmaplemaker]

Tanks should be protected from the weather and animals

All sugarmakers must take a course in the proper use, storage and disposal of chemicals, and they must demonstrate profiency by a written test after the course is completed. Periodic retesting may be required. The course will cover chemicals which may be used for cleaning tubing and evaporators, as well as for cleaning and storing RO membranes.

Proper coding and record keeping are required for each container that is sold.

Sap and syrup may not contact mold or moldy surfaces anywhere during production



Tanks protected= you can not use the stainless round bottom tank you baut last week, or any bucket that does not have a snap on lid.. you mite have a moth fly in to it....

coding, classes= alot of records for all those 1/2 pint containers I filled for the summer fair... Oh and another on the payroll for the paperwork. How about another gov. cert that costs a ton of money, kinda like the lead cert for me to change a clap board or 2 on a old house..

may not contact mold or moldy surfaces= you can not use tubing because you can not guarantee there is no mold where t 128 on the 15th lat does not have any mold in the groove where the pipe connects..

all I can see coming out of this, is washington wants to get rid of the small guy and make the big guy bigger... Hell maybe they will buy out Bascoms if they are ever in financial trouble, kinda like GM?? **** there goes sugaring... what next a certification to breathe?

[PATheron]

Is that stuff in the tubing what you guys were getting at? Holy crap were going to have to use stainless in the woods like the farmers use in the barn. Inch and a half hard plumbed right to the hole. Now were getting somewhere. That will be some vacuum transfer. Only thing is down here Id have to put up razor wire and give booy and brother AR-15s just to keep it there.

[802maple]

No you don't, just hire me I am cheap and it will only effect the bottom line alittle

[powerdub]

I make 300 gallons a year, I have 30 years worth of customers I sell to, I am not a member of VMSMA or my county club. Come get me if you can find me. Oh how about this, I sell to local stores, I am not a member of either of the forementioned organizations, I dont play on forums and i live off the grid. Come get me. I have to admit, I would like to see some regulation but even hot and cold running water may be impossible for some very reputable sugarmakers. I think however the syrup is made the end product must the point of inspection. If it does not meet the requirements then you chase it back. If it meets food safety requirements who cares if you have a crapper in you sugarhouse? I'd love to hire you if I could affor it!! Shoddy GMP's always show up in the end product.

[bobbyjake]

Lets first start with "Reputable". Interesting that this is coming from an "unnamed" reputable packer (I know that the flyer was named and you have chosen to not name its sender and since I haven't received this work of literary art yet, I can only guess who it originated from). Jumbo Shrimp = reputable packer. Sorry. But these two terms are something of an oxymoron. OSNgfbAIBIF:SBFIPBSFDSFJSB. Ooops, soap box just slipped out from under me and I fell. I' better stop now before I start comparing packers to insurance salesman and gas stations.

[802maple]

Scott I fully understand what you are saying, hell I hate regulations as much as the next, but if we don't protect the hen house ourselves then we will have to let the fox do it. If the Health department had there way back in 93-94 with the lead deal, you wouldn't have been selling syrup now or atleast it would have been more cumbersome. I am sorry if I ruffled your feathers, but that is the way I feel.

[red maples]

Nothing on there is impossible. and it is a food product. It will be there for all of us someday. sad but true.

[powerdub]

You didnt ruffle my feathers, I like your posts, they get us thinking and give us the ability to give feedback. All im saying is there is no money for enforcement. The track record of the FDA proves that. They cant even keep the big food processors in line, I have nothing to worry about. The big producers might want to start shivering in thier nickers though. Then again, maybe not.

[Clan Delaney]

I don't think there necessarily has to be money for enforcement. Well, not on the individual sugar maker anyways. From what I'm reading, packers will have to ensure that the producers they are buying from meet these standards. That's not on them, it's on the producer. Anyone who want to sell bulk would have to get certified, at their own time and cost. Then the packer just has to see that certification for their own records. I'd see enforcement affecting the level of the packer then, not the producer.

I do agree with what many of you are saying: "Police yourself or be prepared to have the policing done to you". It's been a topic not unseen at MMPA board meetings.

I am also of the opinion that if I am selling all my syrup directly to those consuming it (and I am) then bugger all to certification. Why? Whether I get certified of not, if, in the worst case scenario the syrup I produce is unsafe for consumption - then it's still my fault. No certification will cover my a$$. And it would only cover the packer's a$$ by allowing them to throw the blame back on those like me. I am at the bottom of this food chain and the responsibility for the quality of my syrup lies with me and me alone. So, if I'm choosing between responsibility with expensive certification or just responsibility - I'll go it alone, thank you.

Besides, when society breaks down, ain't nobody gonna care how I made that sweet sweet syrup they're all gonna be cravin'. Try makin' Log Cabin in your backyard out of a field of corn. :lol:

[sugarmountain]

doesnt the state of Maine allready have a system where there are "inspections" . I think a couple guys on here have commented that they do and they dont inspect crap. The whole thing sounds like a way to send the shi$ rolling down hill (for the state and govt. to make $$$) if a "reputable" packer has "issues" or whatever. Remember we produce a specialty food product like artison cheese, jambs, breads, allot of food products. Are those facilities mini factorys, or traditional producers. I also agree that some regs are required and by most of us switching to stainless equipment etc. without being told to we already got the ball rolling but we dont need to light a fire under there a## either. What are we affraid of the canadien surpluss? we already deal with it. Sounds like our council should start asking the packers to go up to bat for the suppliers as well.

[Thad Blaisdell]

Lets first start with "Reputable". Interesting that this is coming from an "unnamed" reputable packer (I know that the flyer was named and you have chosen to not name its sender and since I haven't received this work of literary art yet, I can only guess who it originated from). Jumbo Shrimp = reputable packer. Sorry. But these two terms are something of an oxymoron. OSNgfbAIBIF:SBFIPBSFDSFJSB. Ooops, soap box just slipped out from under me and I fell. I' better stop now before I start comparing packers to insurance salesman and gas stations.


I received the same letter. The one I got was from Highland sugarworks.

[3rdgen.maple]

This isnt a government or state regulation it is our own industry setting standards or atleast trying to before the government does it for us. Like Jerry has said many times its is a way to regulate ourselves and keep the government off our arsses. The most of it is just plain common sense to begin with. But unfortunetaly there are some that need or want the ever golden sweet stuff and do not have the proper equipment or the monetary funds to acheive their goals so shortcuts are taken and thats were the nonfood grade products and unsanitary conditions come into play. I dont mean to offend anyone but darn man its just common sense and since there is a lack of some of it, and before the government does step in it just might not be such a bad thing for our own organizations to step up and help our industry from future mandates. I still like most am not exacally happy about more regulations and would guess the majority of us would be close to compliant now. But which would one would you rather have knocking on your door. Your local maple organization coming in and doing an inspection or the "great one" sitting behind the desk in DC. If we all are just smart about our practices there isnt much to worry about.
Jerry you have started some good post this week keep them coming. BY the way how's the new hip?

[powerdub]

"If we are all smart about our practices there isnt much to worry about." Who can say it better than that!

[sugarmountain]

i agree but for the most part we are allready there meaning the majority of producers do a pretty good job. I havent heard of any big lawsuits yet. There will allways be a percentage of renagade outlaws, thats what makes the world go around but i wonder how far will it go if we find ourselfs setting really big standards. or will it just keep going? who knows probably just a matter of time.

[sugarmountain]

Hey 802maple, your gonna give me a heart attack! start a thread on somthing less stressful ! I gotta find a thread i can handle:cry:

[twofer]

As a lifetime consumer of maple syrup and a newcomer to the business side I have to say that I was a bit disgusted with some of the practices I learned producers were using. And I'm a pretty easy going guy so you can imagine what's going to happen if the public gets wind. I imagine the heavy hand of the government is going to hit us like the fist of an angry god and producers are going to have no choice but to either operate within the confines of the law or operate outside it.

Good thread and good on the council for heading this future threat off at the pass.

The ball is now in our court.

[802maple]

Jerry you have started some good post this week keep them coming. BY the way how's the new hip?[/QUOTE]

The hip is doing just fine, much better then the rest of me. With both hips replaced now and the price of titanium up, I have to keep a eye over my back because I am afraid someone might scrap me much like taking converters off a car.

[802maple]

Hey 802maple, your gonna give me a heart attack! start a thread on somthing less stressful ! I gotta find a thread i can handle:cry:

What do you mean like how you don't use someones scoop when they are drawing off syrup. hehehehe

[maplwrks]

My take on all of this is this---These inspections are not being driven by government, but by large chain stores that buy their syrup from packers. These stores want to know that their syrup is being produced under a few sanitary conditions. The guideline proposal that Beanie wrote about is a guideline for sugarmakers to go by as to what to expect during an audit. Tim Wilmot drew up these guidelines with help from the Maple Industry Council. These audits will not affect everyone, but would probably start as audits for producers that bulk a lot of their syrup. I'm told that the producer would probably pay for the audit, if they want to sell their syrup to a packer. If I'm mis informed, please, someone set me straight!

[Dennis H.]

One good thing about our own org. policing ourselves is that they would understand what it takes to make maple syrup and what hardships we must deal with unlike an FDA inspector who only knows what to look for from a special "TRAINING" course he took at a computer in an office in some big city.

Another problem with all this policing ourselves how many of us on the trader are "REAL" offenders of any of these proposed laws? And if there are any here how many will admit that they are doing something that they know is wrong? They probably feel that they have been making syrup that way for years and they are still kicking so nothing is wrong with what the are doing.

So than the question is how do you go about informing and convincing the ones that do not visit the Trader that they need to change a few things in thier operation?

I guess sending out letters to producers that there may be changes in the work that they may have to adhere to to sell bulk syrup to packers is what is needed to be done.

[Dennis H.]

And I do agree with the statement that the only reason that we will have to have some means of tracking our syrup to the producer is so that blame can be passed on.

But how will that be done really? The packers are not going to keep everyones syrup seperate when they repack it. They will even mix different producers syrup together, so how do they determine whos was the problem?

[bobbyjake]

Police ourselves before "the man" does it. Really!! Lets call this what it is - an attempt by the same "reputable few" to make their lives easier and to increase their profits by increasing their ability to market OUR product to the HUGE buyers. Note that this fact is not hidden in the literature - General Mills and others are wanting the producers certified; Hell, even testimonials that buyers have walked out when they found out that hair nets are generally not part of the sugarmakers uniform. Clearly if Bascom’s saw a market in hairnets, they would be in the catalogue (I expect a commission on this marketing effort if they show up in the next one).

When Government sets ridiculous standards, we all laugh and gripe, but if these guidelines have truly originated from our industry, why are there such items as:

1. No mold shall come in contact with sap, syrup anytime during production - not possible anyway, but particularly so if you have any plastic in your operation at all, including tubing. Slime on membranes, anyone venture a guess as to what that is: bacteria, mold dirt, minerals, other "contaminants". Not possible in sugaring or in any sugaring process – cane sugar for example. Can it be minimized - absolutely but it can't be eliminated? Not hardly.

2. Potable water only shall come in contact with equipment. Unless ALL of your sap is piped right to the sugarhouse (and there are very very few operations where this is plausible), you can't ensure that your equipment won't get splashed by muddy water. Even dairy farms aren't under such a delusion. Again, can we all try to keep things clean – certainly but setting an unachievable standard is setting yourself up for failure.

This is a food product and needs to be treated and handled as such - Agreed!! Police ourselves – fine. But don’t tell me that this is what this is, when it is not.

[sugarmountain]

exactly, well said. I am 36 years old and was brought up sugaring and its funny, i can remember when i was probably 12 my father and the county forester were having the exact same discussion (which was rather heated) in our old sugarhouse. I think it ened with the old man telling me "Boy, Dont Ever Trust The gubmunt" pretty holarius.

[maplecrest]

as i see it this is the way to go in the maple industry. i have the vt or what was the vt seal of quality. that inspection is not far off from what is asked.the inspection was a few hours and require all stainless steel tanks, evap, even the the canning table and racks we store the syrup jugs on.the "chemicals" stored where? in a safe place? the only question i have jerry would be what is cosidered potable water?? i have 2500 gallons of premeate storage that is used to wash hands ,tanks , evap, r/o ect. hot water off evap for washing filterpress ,hands ect . my question is what is not potable about that pure water???that is the only thing on your list that we donot have a clear idea about.is a drilled well required? the record keeping for bulk as well as our retail sales if done from start filling drum,#, grade, and a small glass sample bottle for later testing, before opening drum. then after canning each jug has a code of date syrup made and date bottled.any question on product is easily answered.once you get develop a system of record keeping it is not had to keep it going. gives us an idea each year of what to jug , how many of each grade,size ect.has been very useful to us.

[Haynes Forest Products]

So we all will be taking classes in proper chemical handling. Is permeate considerd a chemical or a toxic waste. Will I need to have a MSDS sheets on all products that are in the bldg. So the guy cooking my Burger can wipe his hands on his appron all day long but I need disposible 1 use towels to dry my hands after I spill syrup on them:mad: How about glove liners so after you fire up the arch you can test the syrup without washing your hands. You will need to wash your scoops after every use and tripple rinse it before returning to the finish pan. Oh yea can you buy foodgrade spray nozzels for your foodgrade garden hose that you use to supply water to your foodgrade power washer. Yea lets find some foodgrade power washer hose to wash of the foodgrade tires on my &^*^^%%$#$%% NON foodgrade truck

[nhmaple48]

It does'nt surprise me that this is coming from the other side of the river.In the early 1900'sthe Communist party targeted Vt.as a small ,rural state they could overtake.The Nearing's were at the forefront of this movement.Judging from the laws,rules.regulations that have been passed in the last 50 or so years as well as the politicians that get elected they have pretty much suceeded.

[Clan Delaney]

I think there is a difference between a state's maple producers association setting minimum guidelines regarding the production of maple syrup, in exchange for their support, and the use of their jugs and name, and a Department of the State government issuing licences as permission to produce, or having the power to certify or decertify. My understanding is the first is an attempt to police ourselves, and the second is having the policing done to us.

Unfortunately the two will inevitably mix. An association can issue guidelines, but they don't want to have to become an enforcement agency for those guidelines. The simplest solution is to utilize existing enforcement entities, and try to work closely with them. Rules, guidelines, standards - they have no bite without the ability to enforce them. State associations with the power to enforce their standards are in practice no different from a state agency doing the same thing.

If packers start to insist on guarantees of production standards, and your business model depends on that packer, you're going to have to provide that guarantee. The best deal for the producers is to be an integral part of the creation and maintenance of those guarantees, even if doing so means giving the enforcement part over to "government". If it were me, I'd rather have the inspector in my establishment holding me to standards I helped define than the ones he invented.

No easy answers. Never are. Compromise: Everyone dissatisfied to an equal degree.:rolleyes:

[michiganfarmer2]

so we all will be taking classes in proper chemical handling. Is permeate considerd a chemical or a toxic waste. Will i need to have a msds sheets on all products that are in the bldg. So the guy cooking my burger can wipe his hands on his appron all day long but i need disposible 1 use towels to dry my hands after i spill syrup on them:mad: How about glove liners so after you fire up the arch you can test the syrup without washing your hands. You will need to wash your scoops after every use and tripple rinse it before returning to the finish pan. Oh yea can you buy foodgrade spray nozzels for your foodgrade garden hose that you use to supply water to your foodgrade power washer. Yea lets find some foodgrade power washer hose to wash of the foodgrade tires on my &^*^^%%$#$%% non foodgrade truck

hahahahaha

[DrTimPerkins]

And I do agree with the statement that the only reason that we will have to have some means of tracking our syrup to the producer is so that blame can be passed on.

I hesitate to enter this discussion...but here goes.

Although the statement above is probably correct to some extent, it also provides some level of protection to all those involved. Realistically, from the packers perspective....if you did something horribly wrong with your syrup and then sold it to them....is it your fault or theirs? They weren't standing there watching you make it.

Let's say you sell your syrup to a packer. They blend it with 5 other producers. There is some problem and a recall, and your syrup was in the mix. If they know the exact batch of syrup, they can go back to that barrel, or to each producer, and see if there is some problem. If it was one of the other 5 producers, you're off the hook. If nobody had any coding, all 5 might potentially be implicated and nobody would want syrup from any of those 5.

Coding can be useful even in your own retail or wholesale operation. You pack a bunch of syrup....somebody has problems with mold and complains....then another....then another. Are they all from the same batch....or a bunch of different batches. This information will help you track down the source of the problem. Without coding, you have no idea where the problem came from.

A real-life example. In some places if lead is too high, your syrup is pulled off the shelf. If it is coded, they'll pull just that one batch. If not coded, they'll pull your entire production off sale everywhere and you're just plain SOL.

How about another.....you forget to rinse the RO after you wash. The first slug of sap goes through with a good dose of cleaner. It ends up in the syrup. A consumer gets ill. Why? Could cost you tens of thousands tracking that one down. If you knew what day it was, you could check just that barrel and taste that is is different. If it wasn't coded....at best you'd be tasting every barrel. At worst the health dept would make you prove through chemical testing that there wasn't any contaminant in any other barrel.

Coding a lot of syrup really isn't too difficult, and it could save you a real lot of time and $ if there ever was a problem. It is widely used throughout almost all food industries....there are not a lot of good reasons for maple to be any different.

The lead issue came about because of ONE family using maple equipment in a way it was not intended for. That episode cost the industry a great deal....as I think someone said earlier....the health depts could have just shut down the entire industry for a year or two. Fortunately they worked with us, and after a few years of research and education, the problem was largely resolved. They may not be so accomodating the next time around.....and there are a few stories of things that would make the hair stand up on your head for a week.

These guidelines are industry written. It isn't the government trying to shove something down your throat. If it was....it could very well be far worse. Finally, I'll just add that while I had no hand in writing these guidelines, I do think they are: 1. needed, 2. reasonable and 3. way past due. The industry here in VT has been talking about this since at least 1997 that I'm aware of....so it isn't like it is something that just jumped out of the bushes.

[802maple]

Well said Tim, I was on the board of directors, as I said before when the lead issue was being dealt with. You are right that there was concern that they were going to stop everything until they had a handle on it, but they allowed us to handle it and everything went much better.
I will say I hate regulations as much as the next person, I personally would like to believe that all of this is good common sense and we don't have to have to be regulated. I will say as a former buyer I have been in literally 100's of sugarhouses and some were darn right embarrassing, yet some of those made the best syrup I had ever tasted, but show it to one consumer that didn't like cow manure or other things like that in the sugarhouse and the whole industry gets a bad name.
Now some of this list would be hard and maybe as some say impossible, but remember this is as I said is just a proposal and nothing more. If you don't like it then join your local or state organization and make yourself heard.

Don't be part of the problem ,be part of the solution

[PATheron]

Dr. Perkins- Im going to sit back tonight and stay in where its warm and check the trader occasionally to see if your still rare, medium well, or well done. Ive got to give you credit youve got nads. Theron

[DrTimPerkins]

Dr. Perkins- Im going to sit back tonight and stay in where its warm and check the trader occasionally to see if your still rare, medium well, or well done.

Well that's OK Theron....it's Friday night....time to get toasted I suppose. :)

[PATheron]

Ive thought about the regs before too and I kind of feel like Jerry probly. I was kind of surprised there werent more and happy there werent but I can see how something could happen for sure. This is what I would think makes sense. If you sell barrell syrup take a sample of each barrell like pretty much everyone does. It would stink to have to pay for it but have it tested. Then everyone knows its not going to kill anybody. That would probly solve most any problems then if its really necessary have someone so often come around and just keep tabs that people are doing a decent job and if someone is doing something seriously wrong they could spot it then. Seems like if the end product is tested that would protect everyone. Thats what they do with the milk right? Just make sure its tested before it gets put into thousands of gallons of good syrup. That shouldnt be a super expensive thing you wouldnt think. Theron

[PATheron]

This is the other thing though. It sounds like the whole focus is the producer. Once we send it to a packer he refilters it too and does other stuff with it. Wouldnt ultimately be the packers responsability to test it then right before it goes to the customer. What if its contaminated at that place. If its processed more there its vulnerable there too? Theron

[802maple]

I am not sure about other packers, but at Maple Grove they do exactly that, Theron. They have a lab right on site.

[802maple]

Also i know that Highland Sugarworks is inspected by third party inspection teams and by the large clients several times a year.

[PATheron]

I figured must be. That ultimately has been what has kept the product safe all these years to the customer? When you sell your syrup its always tasted too so thats probly gone a long way. Id say that the guys tasting can probly tell quite a bit right there. Your tongue Jerry is basically a refractometer you dont even have to calibrate. Plus if you dont keel over thats a good sign for the customer. How did the lead become a big deal? I know its in all the old equipment but what could someone due to amplify the problem more than what those trace amounts be? Theron

[Dennis H.]

Dr. Perkins that is exactly what I want to hear. That is why I made that comment.

I have no problem with coding and tracking syrup, cause I will most likely never sell it to a packer. Even if I had to code every bottle or jug of syrup I sell it will not be a hassle.

If I understand Theron correctly I like the idea to keep a small sample of every barrel/batch. That way if soemthing does come back to you you can go check your sample from the barrel/batch that is in question. Now that sample would have to be taken from the barrel right before sealing. It could be soemthing like how we have to keep records for taxes, keep the samples for a duration of time than they can be destroyed.

[802maple]

I figured must be. That ultimately has been what has kept the product safe all these years to the customer? When you sell your syrup its always tasted too so thats probly gone a long way. Id say that the guys tasting can probly tell quite a bit right there. Your tongue Jerry is basically a refractometer you dont even have to calibrate. Plus if you dont keel over thats a good sign for the customer. How did the lead become a big deal? I know its in all the old equipment but what could someone due to amplify the problem more than what those trace amounts be? Theron

It wasn't even maple that was being made on the evaporator. The family was using a small evaporator to boil down apple cider, which as we know is very acidic and it desolved the lead into the cider syrup and their child got lead poisioning. It was traced back to the evaporator and everything went south from there.

[PATheron]

I can see how that would happen. I usually use cider to clean my pans and you guys said that basically if you let the older pans kind of develope a natural layer of niter it doesnt leach like it was cleaned shiny clean. Theron

[gmcooper]

Interesting read here. I really hate new regulations and any government intervention. With that said if we are going to be subject to new production guidlines or rules I would much rather have the maple industry set them not a group of Fed. Inspectors in say TX deciding how maple syrup should be produced. There is a great deal of common sense in the intial post. I think most producers do a decent job, some do an outstanding job, and then there are those that would kill the whole industry if they made national news with the way they operate. I cringe everytime I drive by some operation with a trash barrell beside the road with tubing running into it.
I'll be the first to admit I am far from perfect I am working on improving all the time.

[TapME]

WOW.. lets see..................................

[Flat Lander Sugaring]

********************

[Flat Lander Sugaring]

Is that stuff in the tubing what you guys were getting at? Holy crap were going to have to use stainless in the woods like the farmers use in the barn. Inch and a half hard plumbed right to the hole. Now were getting somewhere. That will be some vacuum transfer. Only thing is down here Id have to put up razor wire and give booy and brother AR-15s just to keep it there.

I'll come down and bring my own comp H-bar with hand loaded hollow points:D

[DrTimPerkins]

Also i know that Highland Sugarworks is inspected by third party inspection teams and by the large clients several times a year.

As far as I am aware, this is true of any of the larger packers. All have 3rd party inspections, are inspected by clients, some have been inspected by FDA on occasion. Yes....things can happen at the packer level too, but they are definitely far more regulated than the producers are.

[DrTimPerkins]

If I understand Theron correctly I like the idea to keep a small sample of every barrel/batch.

This is required for organic certification.

[Haynes Forest Products]

The more I read and reflect on the more I want my syrup to stand up to inspection. Dairy farmers have their milk sampled before it hits the truck and if there is a problem at the buyer you can bet the crap will hit the fan. I would not be surprised if my buyer took a sample and held the syrup untill it passed. I could also understand if they held payment in escro until it passes. Is it fair I say yea I wouldnt want to buy a defective product.

[collinsmapleman2012]

im with the doctor on part of this. yes its a good thing that they are trying to better themselves and the industrys image but it also does make it hard for the small guys. its one of those things that are probably good in the long run

[DrTimPerkins]

...but it also does make it hard for the small guys. its one of those things that are probably good in the long run

Initially it won't have much of any effect on the small guys. If you're not selling bulk, you may not need to be certified. If you want to sell bulk, you will need to be certified. My guess is that 99+% of those who sell in bulk will have no problem passing the certification as discussed and presented right now. those that are left probably shouldn't be (or already aren't) making a food product.

On the flip side, I agree with someone who posted on this or another thread....if the packers don't want the really nasty mersh....they should just stop buying it. If people aren't paid to make it, they'll stop.

[PATheron]

Most of the "little guys" sell all thier syrup retail anyway to get the most money. The only thing they might lose out on is the really nasty stuff and they probly dont have much of that anyway Id say. The smaller bulk producers, probly about my size, would probly get hit the hardest. I honestly dont feel that anybody would have much problem with my setup and sanitations so Im not super worried about it other than the normal suspicion of any new regulation. Honestly If I bought someones syrup I knew nothing about and peddled it retail Id probly be a nervous wreck becouse Im such a worry wart Id figure if it was bad and I sold it in my name be my luck theyd keel over dead and their family would sue me into non existince. Actually Im pretty lucky but that would be my fear. So I can kind of see that end of it. Theron

[vtmaplemaker]

so acording to all the testing, and criteria I have to meet, does this mean if I do I can drop my product liability insurance?

It seems to me, that if they inspect you, then the liability is on the inspector not the producer.. That savings should help off set the inspection cost to me I guess..

[Bucket Head]

I'm not a fan of government and regulations, but we are making a food product. I agree that some requiements should be met. If their not, we will be done. We will be the cause of our own end if we don't have some "standards". And yes, its mostly common sense.

As for the above insurance question, you would think that if your syrup passed the test, you would not be obligated to carry it. However, we are many years away from living in that "perfect world" everyone talks about. I work for a transit bus manufacturer. We are constantly inspecting for sharp edges, burred screws, pinch points, trip hazzards, etc., etc. Why? Because every passenger that rides one of our vehicles has access to an attorney. Every maple consumer has access to those same attorneys.

Theron asked what I was going to. I did not know about the cider syrup incident. I guess I was not in the "syrup loop" at that time. When was this? What happened after that? Did commercial syrup equipment making almost cease? I take it everybody went to court? For everyone who is unaware of this incident, can we get a start to finish account? Not trying to dig up bad memories, just curious about this near disaster that I knew nothing about.

Thanks,
Steve

[driske]

Got my notice today. Nothing unexpected, or unwarranted. Packers really are held to much higher standards than producers.
My bro-in-law sells Dental and other Medical supplies. Time to stock up on the face masks, hair nets, and smocks.
Orwell somehow knew the day was coming, even though he missed the Date by a few years.
Jumpin' Jehosaphat : Jerry , how long before the disgruntled NasCar fans file a class action suit to address the respiratory problems caused by inhaling tire dust and trackside fumes.??

[PATheron]

I understand what you guys are thinking that are rolling your eyes (Gravel). Im too easily talked into stuff. A guy can see commonsense standards and then you think about everything else the government does once they get involved. I guess we better hope if anything changes it involves people like Jerry and not a bunch government people that dont know or care anything about us or whether we stay in business or anything else. Theron

[hookhill]

Ok, so we clean up the funky sugar operations. Are we gonna get more for our product......Probably not. Its already a marginal enterprise for the small producer. Throw in some more infrastructure to comply with the new regs and people are gonna say the hell with it. Then the packers will have to raise thier bulk prices to fill orders. You know I always have loved sugaring but after a while you want to be compensated for your effort. I am not gonna keep throwing time and money at this business if we are at the mercy of over production and govt regs. We will make some for ourselves, neighbors, friends and good customers. To hell with the rest of them.

[highlandcattle]

I guess I don't get it. Please explain.

[802maple]

all for you Steve "Buckethead"

[Kev]

The more I read and reflect on the more I want my syrup to stand up to inspection. Dairy farmers have their milk sampled before it hits the truck and if there is a problem at the buyer you can bet the crap will hit the fan. I would not be surprised if my buyer took a sample and held the syrup untill it passed. I could also understand if they held payment in escro until it passes. Is it fair I say yea I wouldnt want to buy a defective product.
depends on what and how much.
some levels of somethings, it can still go into commercial milk. low enough PPM of other things it can still be sold as grade A. it just gets blended before pasturization.
other things... sure shut down start over.

[Monster Maples]

I used to go to farms and pick milk up. First thing I had to do was start the agitator and let it run in the bulk tank, then take a sample at each farm. When I would back into the dairy to unload, not one hose or piece of their equipment was to touch the truck until all of the samples were run through and tested. If something came back that wasn't good they would reject the whole load. Then I would have to truck it elsewhere. (The plant only took grade a) Now, with that said I wouldn't mind seeing some sort of a set of guidelines for maple. I have been in some pretty raunchy sugar houses and it was beyond my belief that anyone would actually want to consume their product. My sugar house is not the taj mahal by any means. But, we do take the extra effort to keep things cleaned up inside, tanks, evaporator, and all of the important things. We burn wood so there is always pieces of bark and wood chips on the floor when we are boiling. However, when we are cooling down after we are done we got in the habit of cleaning up. Like I said, some of the places I have been in just amaze me. I would be one of the supporters of this for the reason that I don't want to see bad publicity come out of a few bad apples. Lets face it, with all of the positive publicity coming out about our syrup do we really want to take two steps back. Now I am just curious, those guidelines that were posted, are those going to be the guidelines? Or was that more or less something that is on the table? Are these going to take place in all states or just Vermont? I know some probably won't agree with me on putting regulations or restrictions. But I look at it this way, I put forth the extra time to do it right. I use a portion of my "profits" to get the essentials that are needed every year. I just think it is the right thing to do, and to protect the ones that are putting forth the time and money.

[802maple]

Pretty much all of the packers around here are notifying all sugarmakers that have or do sell to them that they will be enforcing some or all of the guidelines like this in the upcoming years. This will only be for bulk producers who sell to packers others will be able to do as they have in the past.

[Kev]

Pretty much all of the packers around here are notifying all sugarmakers that have or do sell to them that they will be enforcing some or all of the guidelines like this in the upcoming years. This will only be for bulk producers who sell to packers others will be able to do as they have in the past.

better now than Jan 1 of 2012 :)

[Bucket Head]

Yes, I remember this thread now. Thanks Jerry. Like everyone, I worry about mandates, but there is'nt anything on that list that could be called unreasonable. That list should be followed by all.

The only one I have a question on is the hand washing station. It says nothing about hot water. Should'nt it be hot, potable water? Or is cold water acceptable at a hand washing station?

Steve

[802maple]

I was just looking at the forecast for the major syrup producing region of Quebec and it looks like (if the weather man knows what he is talking about) that it is far from over up there yet.

I somehow got this in the wrong thread