Conversation piece

[802maple]

I have been thinking alot about this over the past few days so here goes.

I have been a sugarmaker for 45 plus years and have made syrup on a pan and from high concentrate and everything in between. It is my present train of thought to keep producing as much syrup per tap as possible with the modern technology afforded us today. Now having said that am I any further ahead then when I did all of my sugaring on a gravity system with 7/16th spouts.

I consistantly then made more then a quart per tap and all I had to do was go through the woods everyday and make sure no mainlines had broken or come apart and the same with the branch lines. I would tap when sugaring got here and not fall into the tapping in January or early Febuary detail and not have to worry about frost pushing out spouts and causing vacuum leaks. I didn't have a huge power bill for running of the vaccuum and heat bill for keeping the RO room warm during those gauranteed cold spells. My maintainence was small verses what it is today to keep up a efficient vacuum system. I didn't have to buy new spouts every year as I tapped later then what people do today so bacteria wasn't a issue as I could go right into buddy syrup with no problem.

So my thoughts are starting to be, yes we make more syrup but do we put more money in the bank.

I don't want to see this get into argument, but I would like to see comments.

[Jim Brown]

Well said !

Jim

[adk1]

good points, I guess it is all in the eye of the beholder. Some folks just like having all of the fancy equipment and see how many gallons they can make on it and their trees put out. I personally dont have the goal of making money at it, more of starting a family tradition that has never been in my family. Not to say that I wont sell whatever leftover syrup I do ahve to folks up and down my dead end road but I dont ever plan on getting so big that I MUST sell the syrup.

[DrTimPerkins]

...do we put more money in the bank.

Like most things....it depends. One big difference however is that there are far more people who make at least a large part, if not almost their total living off their maple business, maybe augmented a bit with a summer job, sometimes related to maple, sometimes not. With some rare exceptions, you didn't find that much years ago....back then it was you did something else (often farming) and maple augmented the income from the farm.

[Thad Blaisdell]

To me there is no comparison. I have 10,000 taps. So we will go with half gallon per tap/vacuum, quart per tap/gravity. 5000 gal/vac, 2500 gal/gravity. $150,000/vac, $75,000/gravity. Yes I know these numbers can be skewed in any direction you want to take them. Most people do not make .5 gal per tap. But also they do not run high vac and beat trails in the woods on a daily or hourly agenda. Also if you were trying to make syrup last year on gravity you certainly would not have made a quart per tap.

Now the expenses. Pipeline in the woods.... how much cheaper would it really be? You would still need all the tubing, maybe more. Black pipe, yes you would absolutely use less... smaller size, no dry line, fewer mainlines. Lets say I have Between 40-45k in black pipe..... what would it cost to do gravity on the same woods? 35k? Lets go with that number.... Savings 10k Vacuum pump, and Releaser another $8,500ish. Still need the RO. Still need tanks but not as many.... say save another $5,000, still need the evaporator, would not need the bigger filter press, save $1,000. Now onto spouts, I will spend about $3,000. Am I missing anything? Oh yes power, my power bill was less than $1,000, You would not save that whole amount, maybe half. Anyway Now onto the quick math. Savings. First year you save $25,000 then $3,000 per year after that. So the first year you only make $50,000 extra and then $72,000 per year after that.

I think my time over the 6 weeks during sugaring is well compensated using vacuum.

[Sugarmaker]

802,
My random thoughts, And I think this will be a good thread.
I have been making syrup for 50 years and still can vividy remember as a kid setting in front of a block arch with a old tin pan that was a black as your hat. I wasnt interested in gallons per hour that night!

But the folks like you on the trader and our maple association have helped improve my current operation with ideas and suggestions that have kept me interested and busy in areas like boiling and gathering efficiency.

What I think your saying, and I know you expressed this in dollars in the bank, is are we having a good time and enjoying most of what we do while laboring to make syrup? I do know that many on here make sugaring their livelihood. And I don't want to step on any toes there. But there are also many many more that do it for the simple fact that it gets us up and going in the spring and involves our families too.
I am in the process of doing the books for the maple and honey business as we speak, and that's the paperwork side of the hobby business. But this is the only hobby that I have had that actually helps support itsself.

And man how many new friends have we made making syrup! LOTS!

I like it when the kids and grand kids come over to help or just set a spell and visit in the sugar house. I go too fast sometimes and beat myself up for not getting all I want to get done. I am getting a little better at that with age :). Slowing down and enjoying it a little more.

I have to say that putting up gravity tubing when its time ,warm and a run coming on, is about the same work as buckets. But the fact that I can gather twice as fast with almost no labor has really put some of the enjoyment back in managing the small 500 taps that we run each year.

Chris

[wdchuck]

Easy question= I've gone from a couple hundred buckets to 4000 vacuumed taps. I'm no great expert, but I think my experience is typical. Are all these added inputs worth it in terms of pure monetary profit? In my case, a resounding yes!!! I cant AFFORD to quit this alleged hobby!

[Mark]

If you took away my vacuum pump or my RO machine I would have to get a real job.

[Randy Brutkoski]

I dont think it matters if you have your spouts in the tree for 1 week or 6 weeks, the damage is done. The changing of the spout every year is a no brainer. When i get to 10,000 taps it will no longer be a hobby it will be my job and i plan on having fun doing it.

[PATheron]

I can see Jerrys point. I can see what hes getting at becouse you could save a lot of stress, money and work and make a little less and maybe be at about the same point. Thing is down here where I live you really cant do gravity anymore most years becouse we just dont get the weather. We used to but now days many years it just goes warm so if you dont do vacuum down here you really just dont make syrup usually. So the technology has allowed us to keep doing syrup in this area where otherwise you couldnt. I gotta say I like doing it both ways. I cant remember getting up in the morning when maple wasnt the first thought in my mind or going to bed when it wasnt the last thought before I went to sleep. Id have just as much fun doing buckets and a wood evaperator as I do the vac I think the only thing is it really is super exciting to see the sap run like it does under all that vacuum. Maple is just plain fun any way you do it. Theron

[Parker]

I was talking to a sugarmaker that had 10000 taps, he made a littel better than .5 gal/tap a year,he said he replaced his lateral lines and drops every 2 years,,I asked him how he could afford to do that...he looked at me like I had 3 heads and said "How can I afford not to?" In the end, like most things in life, you get out of it what you put into it,,all boils down to WANTING IT......IMHO THis fella would not have made a fraction of the syrup with old tubing and no vac, I think...

[Grade "A"]

In my case I will have to agree with 802. When I started I had 20 buckets and made about 5 gallons of syrup a year but had very little money into it. I have 330 on vac now and make around 100-110 gal of syrup a year. In the end I make 100 gallons a year more now and I still have never had any money left over to put in the bank. For me it's like Vagas, you start with so much money and you see how long you can go before it's all gone!

[802maple]

This has done just what I wanted it to. Good conversation.

I do believe that you could have made a quart per tap or more last year on gravity, But one would have to revisit the old school train of thought.

Most everybody that has gravity systems now are doing it with health spouts and tapping to early in my opinion. The health spouts will not and have been proven not to run as much sap as the larger spouts without vacuum, especially if you set them up with 5 or 6 spouts on a lateral. If you load the lines up such as "wvmapler" or Brandon does you will get decent production, but not what woulld get on the larger spout. We know that the small spout is good for the tree. Some might remember that last year I put out my buckets on March 25th to do a test and got just under a half gallon per tap. So I do believe I could have got a quart out of a well setup gravity system.

Am I suggesting that everyone goes back to gravity, absolutely not. I guess I am thinking of the guy that doesn't do all his own work and hires 3 or 4 people to run lines. I have had a lot of sugarmakers tell me that they can't count their own time and my answer has always been if your own time isn't worth anything. Then show up in the morning and I will pay you nothing to work for me, just like you are paying yourself. LOL

[Thad Blaisdell]

You got a half gallon of Sap per tap? Was that right after the only semi-freeze that we had last year? I re-drilled (reamed) about 1000 taps that same week. I would ream the same hole..... nothing....... put the spout on and look out what a gusher coming out. Now they say that only lasts for a few days but that was all I needed. I made another 150 gallons because of it. Had an off taste, not buddy but weird. It all went to Bascoms, they paid the same as perfect.

I dont know anybody in my area that made enough syrup to put in a hat if they didnt have vacuum. My neighbor has 500 taps, same woods as me just a fence going through, used 7/16 spouts, made 33 gallons. I would have to guess that didnt pay for his time. Now on vacuum he could have made 250 gallons. I would say the cost would still be worth it.

[Dave Y]

I disagree with the qt per tap last year! I had 2000 on vac and 200 on garavitiy and 1000 buckets and bought sap off of 200, and i made .13 per tap last year. If i didnt have vacuum I would of had next to nothing. I think that the more you put into something the more you will get out off it. I started very small like many of you. I got a lttle syrup and some satisfaction out of it. now I will have 5000 taps this year and I hope to get more than syrup and satisfaction out of it. I love doing this and hope to make it full time. It has been said, if a man does somthing he loves for a living he will not go to work a day in his life

[Brian Ryther]

Jerry,
Great topic. I am willing to bet most of you are like me and constantly think about the $ side of things. Every tap I put out I think to my self about the $10 it cost me to get that tap to the tree. Then I consider the first year eaning potential of $25 for that tap. I like Thads response. I replaced his #'s with my own and found a $37,000 difference between vacuum and gravity. Jerry have you had a bad season where you live? We had a bad season in NY last year. Buckets produced 5 gallons of sap per tap. With the investment we put into sugar making we would be belly up if we relyed on non vacuum instalations. Any number of taps require the same level of processing equiptment weather vac or gravity. On a dump run day we see similar amounts of sap from buckets as we do from vacuum taps. The only other investments are vacuum pumps and the power to run them. For my situation I estimate that first year investment for vac is around $3 per tap. I have to believe that the bigger the bush the less that amount will be. As far as labor goes. Once I get to the point that I need to hire someone then no more taps will be added. Yes my time is worth somthing, but when you love what you do you are willing to do it for much less than when you work for someone elses profits.

[Maplewalnut]

Let’s put some general numbers to this conversation. My feeling is that syruping is 50% weather dependent, 30% technology driven and 20% hard work. Sure buckets and 7/16th taps will work and on any given year you will make ½ gallon a tap, I have done it. However like others I also made less than .20 gallons on vacuum.
A few comments:

Weather- Completely out of your control but don’t miss the first run. Enough said

Technology- the real advantage to vacuum is it helps you reduce the chances of a very very bad season. ROs in my mind reduce capital over the long run by processing more taps on a smaller stock rig. No steamaway, air tight front, max pans needed to still establish a respectful per tap number

Hard work- pick your poison, You either have to walk lines religiously to find leaks, or empty buckets daily before the sugar is eaten up by bacteria. This is of course in addition to normal sugaring activities.

Mike

[sugarmountain]

I agree with grade a on the "vegas" aspect, the more ya make the more you spend. Never seems to be the old turn key set up anymore, but the price of syrup probably affects that as much as anything?

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

This has done just what I wanted it to. Good conversation.

I do believe that you could have made a quart per tap or more last year on gravity, But one would have to revisit the old school train of thought.

Most everybody that has gravity systems now are doing it with health spouts and tapping to early in my opinion. The health spouts will not and have been proven not to run as much sap as the larger spouts without vacuum, especially if you set them up with 5 or 6 spouts on a lateral. If you load the lines up such as "wvmapler" or Brandon does you will get decent production, but not what woulld get on the larger spout. We know that the small spout is good for the tree. Some might remember that last year I put out my buckets on March 25th to do a test and got just under a half gallon per tap. So I do believe I could have got a quart out of a well setup gravity system.

Am I suggesting that everyone goes back to gravity, absolutely not. I guess I am thinking of the guy that doesn't do all his own work and hires 3 or 4 people to run lines. I have had a lot of sugarmakers tell me that they can't count their own time and my answer has always been if your own time isn't worth anything. Then show up in the morning and I will pay you nothing to work for me, just like you are paying yourself. LOL

Jerry is right on health spouts, they won't run nearly as much as 7/16. I have nice tight laterals and regardless whether there is a few taps or a lot of taps, they won't run like 7/16 spouts as a friend of mine has an operation about 2 to 3 miles away and he kicks my butt on sap per tap and he has lines with sags in them and not tight, but he uses 7/16 spouts is about the only difference and they make a lot of difference, more in my opinion than the research says as I used 7/16 for many years and they produced significantly more.

[OneLegJohn]

Great thread. Don't make syrup, make money! The problem with startups and struggling manufacturers, especially at business incubators, is producing a great product is not a sound business model. Selling a great product at a premium is. Invest your time in increasing margin through brand equity and relationships. Sell value and value is perception. As an investment, the more you sell and less you produce, the better. GE doesn't make alarm clocks or lightbulbs, but they make a lot more money than the people who manufacture these items and use GE's logo.

Value and premiums are generated at the commercial level. Meaning, your ability to sell has a greater impact on profit than the ability to produce. The reason I say "greater" is selling expenses are just that: expenses that come off the bottomline. Efficient production involves equipment, which involves capital investment, which reduces ROI. More importantly it ties up cash. And depreciation is tying your money up, that's it. If I spend $1000 on bulk syrup, and sell it for $2000, my profit margin is higher than a large bulk producer. Bulk producers do not get 100% annual return on their investement. Selling is key, not production. Given this model, a 50 tap operation can make more $ than a 10,000 tap operation. I just gave the best kept secret in the maple industry away.

[Thad Blaisdell]

Value and premiums are generated at the commercial level. Meaning, your ability to sell has a greater impact on profit than the ability to produce. The reason I say "greater" is selling expenses are just that: expenses that come off the bottomline. Efficient production involves equipment, which involves capital investment, which reduces ROI. More importantly it ties up cash. And depreciation is tying your money up, that's it. If I spend $1000 on bulk syrup, and sell it for $2000, my profit margin is higher than a large bulk producer. Bulk producers do not get 100% annual return on their investement. Selling is key, not production. Given this model, a 50 tap operation can make more $ than a 10,000 tap operation. I just gave the best kept secret in the maple industry away.

Its fine for you to feel that a 50 tap operation can make more than 10,000. I dont see how that is possible. He would have to buy all of my syrup and resell it for twice what he bought it for to make the same amount (minus the cost of the jug and power to reheat etc). But at the end of the year I can bet I will have made more money with less effort. As far as equipment I have $146,000 tied up in my sugarhouse and equipment (plus pipeline and tubing). That is it. I will not need anything more for years. Everything is new and ready to go. Now I will make close to $150,000 in syrup at bulk price. I can sell it all and my season is over before May 1st. None of the B.S. of going to farmers markets selling a quart here or a pint there. I can mow my lawn and pick berries and go to the beach all summer. The guy buying my bulk syrup has to reheat it, can it and distribute it..... mileage, time, energy, no thanks. I will take my big fat check, pay my bills, and live off the rest quite nicely for the next 10 months. Then I will do it all again.

All I can say is THANKS to that 50 tap guy for buying bulk syrup.

[PARKER MAPLE]

Very good point here Thad I totally agree with you. Ive been dreaming of that day when I can also take the same path as you or close to it. I now its all possible just have to play your cards right. I watched my grandfarther back in the early 90s late 80s tap his 2500 to 3000 trees boil all night long and half the next day untill the next run and he complained about it. but back then he didnt have any payments and very little over head in his sugaring outfit. He payed his taxes and put money in his pocket with that money so he didnt have to do much the rest of the year. but being a farmer there was always something else to do.

Its a dream of mine and Im just waiting till Im dealt the right card to capitize on it. Good luck

Maple rookie

[802maple]

Yeah Brian, I have had bad years here as well as good ones, that is a given. My question in your regard with your buckets, did you tap them the same time as your vacuum system? I find in my opinion that alot of sugarmakers are tapping them too early, and when the real part of sugaring gets here they complain that buckets just don't like they used to. Atleast I found in my little experiment that I could get just as much syrup per tap as normal by waiting to what used to be the normal staring time for me which would be in a window of March 20th on. I know that date doesn't work for everyone as my trees are notoriously late. I am willing to bet by looking at the calender that I can tap after March 19th this year and make nearly that much again. I won't give you the reason why March 19th would be my magic date, but I have most always tapped by this phenominum and it has worked for me every year but one, when I did it old school.

Great conversation guys keep it up.

[Brian Ryther]

Jerry, Vac taps went in 2/14, buckets were taped last on March 6th. By that time I had 10 run days with the vac taps and had boiled 6 times and had made 1/6 of my total crop. Considering elevation and Longitude They went in exactly when they should have.

[PATheron]

Thad- Im kind of in the same business your in to some extent. I dont want to jug anything either. Theres only one problem with your ( our ) business plan. We got in at a time when bulk syrup is paying record prices. I might be wrong on that, Jerry you can chime in on that. What if bulk syrup pays a 1.50 a pound, run those numbers. The other thing is those big averages once that line is in may not be just a given. I know some people that are hitting them but the ones that are doing that year after year are doing it full time and busting there buts to make it happen. Theres a few that always hit them but they are the best of the best. Im not saying that it cant be done but I bet a guys going to be darn busy to pull it off consistently. If the bulk prices go to nothing Brian is going to still get the big money for the jug syrup. Just a thought. I hope the best for everyone BUTT. Theron

[Thad Blaisdell]

If bulk goes that low, then I will be forced to sell at retail.... I would probably price my gallons at $25 and blow through them as fast as I could. That would still be more than enough to keep the pace. If Everyone else wanted to keep the high price that would only help me sell out that much quicker. After 2 more years everything will be paid for and then it will not take a lot to sustain my operation.

[3rdgen.maple]

If bulk goes that low, then I will be forced to sell at retail.... I would probably price my gallons at $25 and blow through them as fast as I could. That would still be more than enough to keep the pace. If Everyone else wanted to keep the high price that would only help me sell out that much quicker. After 2 more years everything will be paid for and then it will not take a lot to sustain my operation.

And there would go the retail market for the rest of us.

[wdchuck]

It's called the race to the bottom.

[PATheron]

Gotta thank you Canadians for that Federation. Theron

[OneLegJohn]

Just trying to give a different perspective here. Your assumption is the $25/gal customer and $50/gal customer is the same person. They are not. Californians pay more, trust me. I get the bulk thing, I do. I do it. However, the whole reason the bulk commodity trading market exists is because additional value can be generated. And I know the examples I've given are the extreme opposite of a Bulk Producer, it doesn't make "value" a less important concept. The further away you are from the end user, the more risk and less control you have of your business. The largest maple syrup retailer in my state doesn't produce a drop of syrup and they sell a gallon for $70, all day long. Good for them, they keep bulk prices up.

[Parker]

Jerry- just want to make sure I understand you....you tapped march 25th with buckets and those taps made you just under 1/2 of a gallon per tap of syrup?

[Buffalo Creek Sugar Camp]

Probably most of that has had buckets know there are those certain trees that always give a ton of sap no matter how the season is. With just tapping a few taps it easy to pick those out and have great results. As an operation expands, we can't just pick out the trees that run really good, they all must be tapped, so unfortunately averages tend to go down. That is where the vacuum pumps come into play. The RO machines also compensate for trees with low sugar content, and make them feasable to tap.

I would rather buy an RO and less oil then no RO and a ton of oil. At least at the end of the day I still have the The RO instead of just a bunch of oil turned into smoke. I believe that The RO machines and vacuum pumps are the key to making a profit in a maple syrup operation on a larger scale.

[802maple]

Probably most of that has had buckets know there are those certain trees that always give a ton of sap no matter how the season is. With just tapping a few taps it easy to pick those out and have great results. As an operation expands, we can't just pick out the trees that run really good, they all must be tapped, so unfortunately averages tend to go down. That is where the vacuum pumps come into play. The RO machines also compensate for trees with low sugar content, and make them feasable to tap.

I would rather buy an RO and less oil then no RO and a ton of oil. At least at the end of the day I still have the The RO instead of just a bunch of oil turned into smoke. I believe that The RO machines and vacuum pumps are the key to making a profit in a maple syrup operation on a larger scale.

I can't disagree with you as I am still a very high believer in the the RO ( matter of fact I wouldn't make syrup without one). I never said I wouldn't use vacuum as I know it is a huge improvement in the production of sap, but I still wonder if one has more money in their pocket at the end of the day, if you are being honest with yourself. I know about huge operations as I have been there done that and also know about small operations as I have also been there done that. If I had picked certain trees last year I could have made the numbers even better. If anyone is interested in looking at the trees that I tapped they are more then welcome, most of them the tree is half or more dead, broken tops and in very serious decline.

Theron is right about getting into the sugaring game in the last few years with the bulk prices at record levels, with all the expansion going on and the packers sending out notice that they won't be taking "MERSH" anylonger there won't be as much profit going around as there once was. And also the half gallon per tap averages will be taking it on the nose when you can't sell the late season syrup any longer. Unless you want to make it and dump it in the river. I said last year that some time they would stop taking it and people laughed, I have been around this game for a long time and have seen the highs and the lows many times and that is a education you can't get from a book.

[michiganfarmer2]

replying to original post...

The main reason I make syrup, well there are two reasons, but the main reason is I LOVE doing it. March is a fine month to be outside. The sun is warm on my skin, but the snow keeps the temps down so Im not sweating, and the color of sunlight is back to bright white instead of the dim yellow of wiinter. I love taping trees, collecting buckets, instalign tubiing, making firewood, runing the evaporator, talking to people about the entire process.... I just love mapling. The second reason I do it is because the stuff is liquid gold. The cost to collect sap, and boil it down are very small if a person stays closer to traditional methods to keep his equipment costs down.

I have thguht a lot about vaccum, ROs and other modern equipment. WHen I start considering the price, and the extra maintainance of all the modern equipment, my enjoyment of the process dwindles. If I hade th etrees available, I think Id rather dump a couple thousand buckets a day by hand than deal with the squirrels eatiing my tubing, chasing vaccum leaks, worrying if the vaccum pump is gonna ruun out of oil and lock up, worry if the RO is gona freez, sending soo much of my money to the electric company iinstead of putting it in my pocket.

I guess my point is, for me, enjoying the process, and keeping costs down is more important than volume of sap per tap.

[Sugarmaker]

Very good thread with lots of perspectives! Thanks 802 for letting us vent as we approach the 2011 season. I think we have stayed on track most of the time. I 'compete' with a fellow sugarmaker, with similar tap count, similar rig, and he keeps it simple still buckets. We share news almost each day during the season including on how sales are doing. Generally we both sell out, we both have fun, we both enjoying making syrup. It seems to gets in the blood at what ever level of syrup making your at, 5 taps to 50,000.
Enjoy the day! And thanks to those that keep this good forum up and running for us!
Chris

[802maple]

Thanks guys, this has been a fun thread for me too. I think some times people take me to serious and if only they really knew.

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

One thing is for sure that Jerry(802 maple) knows more in his pinky about maple syrup than majority will know in their entire body.

[802maple]

You make me blush Brandon, Your evaporator sounds like it should work fine. Good luck

[3rdgen.maple]

Jerry I remember that Thread about mersh and guys producing it very well. Think it got a little nasty there for a bit but the bottom line is I agreed then and it sure is going to put a damper on some producers pockets. Also I have to wonder and am a little afraid of the outcome if the market does drop out on bulk prices and guys do sell retail at $25 just to put the same money in there pockets as if they sold in bulk. It will kill the retail market as well. The desperate seller might not be right next door but some one is and that someone has someone next door to him and eventually we all will be next door to the guy trying to compete with syrup prices that make trying to put any amount of money in your pocket not worth the venture. I personally believe that alot of us got into this from a family tradition of watching and helping grandpa (in my case) in the old sugar house and in the woods. For me that is the biggest part of the whole deal and to be perfectly honest if I didnt make a penny at this It wouldnt stop me one bit. Yes a profit is great for expansion in hope of making some money or rather more money but if I can spend some time with the family and put some smiles on friends, neighbors and family faces it was worth the time and effort.

[PapaSmiff]

I've enjoyed this thread. As a hobby producer, I'll never make any money at it. I'm selling my house this year and HOPE that my new property has some maples.

This may be a bit off-topic, but several posts in this thread discussed the tapping dates, size of the tap, volume of sap, etc. The other day I was browsing a web site that had a report from a multi-year study on the topic. It compared the total seasonal volume of sap when taps were put in early vs. later in the season. It compared vacuum to gravity, etc. It may have also compared 7/16 taps to smaller taps.

This study is posted at http://www.uvm.edu/~pmrc/tapping.pdf

The site also has an interesting study comparing small spouts to the 7/16 spout - sap production, tree damage, etc. Good Stuff!

[allgreenmaple]

Jerry I remember that Thread about mersh and guys producing it very well. Think it got a little nasty there for a bit but the bottom line is I agreed then and it sure is going to put a damper on some producers pockets. Also I have to wonder and am a little afraid of the outcome if the market does drop out on bulk prices and guys do sell retail at $25 just to put the same money in there pockets as if they sold in bulk. It will kill the retail market as well. The desperate seller might not be right next door but some one is and that someone has someone next door to him and eventually we all will be next door to the guy trying to compete with syrup prices that make trying to put any amount of money in your pocket not worth the venture. I personally believe that alot of us got into this from a family tradition of watching and helping grandpa (in my case) in the old sugar house and in the woods. For me that is the biggest part of the whole deal and to be perfectly honest if I didnt make a penny at this It wouldnt stop me one bit. Yes a profit is great for expansion in hope of making some money or rather more money but if I can spend some time with the family and put some smiles on friends, neighbors and family faces it was worth the time and effort. If someone does retail at $25, I'll be right there to buy it all, & then resell at $50 + with next to nothing in labor, cost, & overhead.

[Amber Gold]

Maybe if syrup prices drop, the equipment prices will drop to where they're affordable again. Is it me, or does it seem like equipment prices increased as syrup prices increased.

This has been a great topic to read. I believe the additional expense is justified. I made 0.21 gpt last season on vacuum a friend the next town over made 0.07 gpt and he tapped later than me. I think on the seacoast you need vacuum because you don't get ideal conditions for as long as you do in real sugaring country.

[markcasper]

Theron is right about getting into the sugaring game in the last few years with the bulk prices at record levels, with all the expansion going on and the packers sending out notice that they won't be taking "MERSH" anylonger there won't be as much profit going around as there once was.

Really?? Now there are letters going out advising packers won't take any commercial? Could you be a bit more specific? I am trying to plan vacation days and this would be good to know as I could plan for less days off.

[DrTimPerkins]

Really?? Now there are letters going out advising packers won't take any commercial?

No....I don't believe that is the case. It is simply that one of the larger packers has indicated that they will no longer take any of the unfiltered, buddy, ropey, fermented, nasty-tasting stuff. Basically they don't want to take the crappiest of the crap. I think almost all packers will still take very very dark (commercial) syrup that doesn't have bad off-flavors and can go through their filters.

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

Josh,

Doubt that we would see equipment prices drop if the prices of syrup did fall to half of what it is now. What would happen would be some manufactures would go bankrupt or out of business.

[802maple]

[QUOTE=DrTimPerkins;126861]No....I don't believe that is the case. It is simply that one of the larger packers has indicated that they will no longer take any of the unfiltered, buddy, ropey, fermented, nasty-tasting stuff. Basically they don't want to take the crappiest of the crap. [QUOTE]



Yes, but that packer is the one in the past that bought it all from the other packers. The 2 packers that I have bought for over the years sent it to Bascom's to trade for better quality syrup. So if Bascom's doesn't want it, I guess the other 2 big packers won't either. I have bought from producers that had a dozen or more barrels of that "mersh" which is not really commercial . Orignally the name "Mersh" came from "Royalmaple" which is the exact description that you mentioned.

[sugarmountain]

I thought just the other day i heard bruce bascom say they would take it filtered and not filtered but at a pricy penalty? 1/2 gallon per tap bucket tap was that average or one individual year? -dud

[3rdgen.maple]

Here is what it says on Bascom's website. It kind of leaves it wide open for debate the way he says it.
Commercial grade syrup is presently in great surplus and may drop to $2.00/lb. We do not want unfiltered commercial and expect the prices of that sub-standard quality to drop to $1.50/lb. or less. If you cannot put that last run through your filter, then it is time to pull the taps

[sugarmountain]

Sounds like they dont realy know what to expect. Glad we dont make much of it. thanks for digging that up

[3rdgen.maple]

No problem but I got this picture in my head of Theron ripping holes in his filter paper and Telling Bruce hey it went through my filter :D

[markcasper]

We do not want unfiltered commercial and expect the prices of that sub-standard quality to drop to $1.50/lb. or less. If you cannot put that last run through your filter, then it is time to pull the taps[/I]

If they DO NOT want it, then why pay a $1.50? We do not want to me means "they don't want" it, and you are to pull your taps, that to me meens they really don't want it.

If I make some and can't get it through the filter, I will be late in getting the taps out, because I will have to have them left in to know whether I can or can't get it to go through.

[sugarmountain]

I guess time will tell. I can understand what jerrys saying. The comercial syrup sometimes has been bust in the past thats why some guys dont bother with the stuff, plus the wear and tear on the equipment.... one things for sure if theres a market and they want it we can put the "mersh" right to em!:)