RO yearly set up

[Maplewalnut]

How far in advance do you guys put your membranes in the towers? Any concern with them drying out before use? I know in other filtration schemes, performance increases if membranes are properly wetted before you hit them with 'product' Less hold up loss in the membranes and the pore size holds true while maintained wet since membranes are hydrophilic.

Mike

[maplwrks]

Mike---The membranes are the last thing I do before I boil for the first time of the season. Generally, I have sap to flush them with the first time. I run a couple of hundred gallons of sap through them, rinse and go for it. You will not need to run 200 gallons of sap through your 250, but probably 50 gallons will be enough. I would run 50 gallons through it, rinse with permeate and you should be ready to go.

[DrTimPerkins]

...Generally, I have sap to flush them with the first time. I run a couple of hundred gallons of sap through them, rinse and go for it. You will not need to run 200 gallons of sap through your 250, but probably 50 gallons will be enough. I would run 50 gallons through it, rinse with permeate and you should be ready to go...

And be sure to toss out that first 50 gallons of sap (or whatever amount you use) you use because it will contain residues from the storage solution. Don't use well water or chlorinated water to start up membranes either. Hard water (calcium) and chlorine can do bad things to membranes. Either use sap, or if a sugarmaker nearby has already started, get some permeate from them.

[Maplewalnut]

Thanks Mike, thats what I figured, just getting an itchy 'trigger finger' to start turning some valves. Since it is my first year with this beast, its the unknown that is killing me.

[maplwrks]

Thanks Tim! I forgot to tell him about the most important step!!

[ennismaple]

We do the same thing - putting in the membrane is one of the last things we do before we fire up the evaporator. We make sure to have the heat on in the RO room for a few days to ensure everything is warmed up before we crank it up for the 1st time.

[Bucket Head]

Just a question on the flushing/rinsing at the begining of the season. I know some guys will run spring water through them so they don't waste sap for the initial cleaning. Is spring water acceptable or will it somehow damage the membranes?

Steve

[Thompson's Tree Farm]

Steve,
The simple answer is....it depends. Many springs contain lots of minerals in their water. If that is the case, the water would be unsuitable to rinse with. A good clean source of fresh rainwater or clean snowmelt would probably be better.

[Amber Gold]

With (2) 4" membranes, is 50 gallons of water enough to flush the preservative out of them or is more needed?

What about with new membranes? Don't they need to be flushed with permeate first? I thought I read this last spring, but can't find the thread. What volume of water is needed for new membranes?

My parents have well water run through a water softener, is it OK to use this water to flush the membranes?

[Jim Brown]

Do not use well water!!!too many minerals for your membranes, Use sap! Yea I know I'm not going to run good sap down the drain.right?
All kidding aside we always run ours about 15 - 20 minutes with sap first thing in the spring. and run every thing down the drain.(concentrate as well and premeate) Then we set the pressure and the valves to run the concentrate to the stock tank and the rinse water to the holding tanks. This is what Lapierre recommends.


Jim

[Brent]

I've got a pair of new 4" membranes and I'm going to pre-soak them for a week or more with distilled water, drain them then re-fill,
let stand again, drain and then move them to the sugar shack, hoping to minimize the amount of sap I put thruough on start up.
A 5 gallon jug of water is a lot cheaper that a gallon of syrup.

Is there a test for residual SMBS so you know when you're done flushing ??

[green4310]

I,m having trouble understanding how a membrane that was designed to extract pure water from sea water, brackish water, waste water, urine, and other nasty liquids, would be harmed from flushing with potable water of any kind as long as it was not chlorinated. I run 1000 - 1500 gallons of spring water through mine after season to get permeate for my clean-up. I built my machine in 06 and all still seems ok. I have spent a lot of time on the DOW site and am pretty sure they ok using pure water as an alternative for start-up if permeate is unavailable. I appologize if this comes off as sarcastic rant. Only meant as more info.

[Brent]

Green I agree completely. What can be wrong with a well water flush. These things are supposed to reject minerals of all types for years. We're only going to flush them.

And it's not as if sap is free of minerals either. Think about that then next time the syrup pan invokes all manner of bad language.

[802maple]

I,m having trouble understanding how a membrane that was designed to extract pure water from sea water, brackish water, waste water, urine, and other nasty liquids, would be harmed from flushing with potable water of any kind as long as it was not chlorinated. I run 1000 - 1500 gallons of spring water through mine after season to get permeate for my clean-up. I built my machine in 06 and all still seems ok. I have spent a lot of time on the DOW site and am pretty sure they ok using pure water as an alternative for start-up if permeate is unavailable. I appologize if this comes off as sarcastic rant. Only meant as more info.

It might be a difference as to what membranes you are using, some are made specifically for maple. But I guess the guys that use them could be smarter then the guys that build them. I guess my question would be after 4 years of use do your membranes still do more then a 100% of the expected performance that they did when they were new. If yes, I guess that it is alright to continue using the water to flush your membranes. We flushed with sap and it took 8 years before any of the six membranes went under 100%.

I am not meaning to be sarcastic either if it comes off that way.

[Amber Gold]

I've wondered this to. If the sap has minerals in it and well water has minerals in it, what's the difference? If RO's are designed to remove contaminants, does it matter where the water source comes from? I could understand with not using chlorinated water.

[lew]

802

We have to have our membranes sent out to be cleaned every 2-4 years. I havr always attributed this to the fact that we have an old Coster machine that does not have enough pump to really flushh itself properly. We have always used well water (put through a softener) to start the season. After commercial cleaning they come back 100%. That is until this year. We bought new membranes 2 years ago to replace our old NF-70's (about 10 years old) No NF-70's were available so we went with the Maple Mark I. they plugged up in 1.5 years. Sent them out and they are back at 100%. I think it may depend on your machine as far as getting things flusshed out with or without problems. Older, poorly pumped machines are not going to flush themselves as well as the newer, bigger pumped machines. I am on the line about what every one is saying about well water use or sap. Using 1,00 gallons of sap to rinse my machine in the beginning of the season sounds a bit pricey, that's the euqivalen of 20+ gllons of syrup.

[802maple]

Lew,
Do you use a 1000 gallons to flush your machine? I only used 200 or so. I put the first fifty gallons on rinse right thru to the drain. I then turn the machine on to concentration to make about a hundred gallons or so of permeate and dumping the concentrate down the drain. I then push the permeate thru on the rinse cycle and everything should be flushed out by then.We also used the Maple Mark 1.

I do everything as recommended from the company first as sugarmaker and then later when I was trained to do service on these machines. I am not a engineer, I have only done things as I was trained by the companies that build these units, maybe they don't know anything about RO's, who knows.

You are right, there are alot of variables that could effect the performance of a membrane. One being different membranes, different machines and different owners. Most of the time when I have had to service machines it came down to different owners as the culprit to the problem. When I have had to change out different components it was not big enough wire for the unit,(by trying to save a few bucks) and when there was membrane problems it was improper washing procedures because the neighbor said that the RO companies are idiots about the way it should be done and you don't need to do that. Do I have all the answers, not at all, a matter of fact I don't have the majority of the answers. All I know, I have done what I was told to by the companies and we haven't had any problems. Now if I had done it differently, would I have had problems, I don't know.

The unfortunate thing that happens is that there should be detailed manuals with these units when they are sold or atleast the dealers that sell them should know them inside and out.

[lew]

802

I didn't realize you were an RO tech. That's not a good thing for me to know. I will be picking your brain more often now.

Answer to your question, Yes. I put about 1000 gallons through the membranes before we use the machine for the first time. (2- 8 inch). I then wash, rinse with another 500 and am good to go. A little over kill from what you do. Are most Ro companies recomening only a 200 gallon rinse, then conc. to make 100 gallons of permeate then flush , then ggod to go as you stated before? If so, that may sound feasable. Our original instruction manual said that it was OK to concentrate well water to make permeate for washing. That is directions for 1988 and using the Dow BW membranes.

[Brent]

802
you sound like a guy IU knew on a swimming pool forum. The more you know the less you think you know.

His signature ran something like this

"I've worked for 5 pool companies in 3 states. What I've learned over the years could fill a few books. What I have yet to learn would fill a library."

I am about to start my second year with a real RO system and new membranes. I've learned a lot through year one. I hope I've learned enough not to screw up the new membranes in year two.

[green4310]

Been poking around the Dow site again and they recommend when starting up system, which is what we do every season, to run the first hour down the drain. Most 4 inch membranes are rated around 100 gph so let me see...I have four so I need to flush 400 gal on the floor, those with more tubes ......I refuse to throw 8-10 gal of prime syrup out. Looks to me like the guy who does the 1000 gal flush has it closer than the one who does only 200 gal. I have my RO set up to run each tupe separatly, for cleaning. In doing so I set the pressure and read the flow on each. If one deviates from the others I will know it.
I do this with permeate every day during season. According to Dow their membranes can differ in permeate flow by as much as 20% and be ok. So it is not an exact science. If I were going to ever pay $20grand for a machine I would expect it to be bullet proof to the point that water would not destroy it.

[802maple]

Been poking around the Dow site again and they recommend when starting up system, which is what we do every season, to run the first hour down the drain. Most 4 inch membranes are rated around 100 gph so let me see...I have four so I need to flush 400 gal on the floor, those with more tubes ......I refuse to throw 8-10 gal of prime syrup out. Looks to me like the guy who does the 1000 gal flush has it closer than the one who does only 200 gal. I have my RO set up to run each tupe separatly, for cleaning. In doing so I set the pressure and read the flow on each. If one deviates from the others I will know it.
I do this with permeate every day during season. According to Dow their membranes can differ in permeate flow by as much as 20% and be ok. So it is not an exact science. If I were going to ever pay $20grand for a machine I would expect it to be bullet proof to the point that water would not destroy it.

If it works for you than I guess you better keep doing it. Maybe with a Old machine like yours, with apparently water filtration membranes like you must be using, unlike the MARK 1 that is meant for maple you can get away with it.

Water doesn't destroy a Maple membrane, iron and several minerals (or atleast to the levels are in water) that are not in sap do. Now a nf270 that many producers use will pass sugars at higher concentration levels, but they also pass many minerals that are in sap is why they are faster due to the larger pores in the membrane.

Dow certainly is talking about some membrane that I am not familar with if they say that they vary 20 %, as I have either used or setup a hundred or more of membranes in my years and I haven't seen them more than 2 or 3 percent different then another. If I were to get a single membrane that produced 120 gallons different per hour from another I would stick that baby where the sun don't shine. It might change that much if one was a Mark 1 and the other was a 270 but not if they were the same membrane.

The sap that I use, most of the time is what I would dump on the ground anyway, being the very first stuff.

[batsofbedlam]

Here is the beginning of instructions for annual start up for a Springtech RO from the Leader webpage.
2. YEARLY START UP
All the following procedures can be made with spring water (without Chlorine!) or well water, as long as it is clean and does not stain. Your machine has been filled with a glycol solution to prevent the membranes and other components from freezing. The preparation of your system at the beginning of each season must be carried out in the following way:

[Brent]

The hidden issue with well or spring water is iron content.
Every membrane that I have read tech sheets on, puts a very low level of iron tolerance. If you know your water is low in iron, then you should be good to go.

[TroutBrookSH]

I don't have any choice, I'm on the Monroe County, NY water system and have no easy options for initial washing. I usually fill my permeate tank with ~300 gals of water and let it sit for a couple days to let the chlorine out-gas, then do my washing. Anyone see any problems with this? Going on my 3rd year with RO...

[green4310]

Guess I should not have mentioned 20% and membrane in the same post. 20% of Permeate flow differential between membranes is acceptable. Now lets see what that really means. Four inch membranes all have a maximum recommended output of 1.6gpm so using 1gpm as a baseline you could see a range of from .8-1.2 gpm and still be ok. Did not mean to confuse the issue . I still think I will go with my softened well water or spring water for start up. I will say this though, if I spent the big bucks on one of those overpriced contraptions I would also err on the side of caution, because I would be at the mercy of the dealer for those $mega membrane replacements.

[markcasper]

I was in this situation a year ago and I was all worried. I was told by the dealer to use my well water and not to throw away sap. I did this and all seemed ok on the 2nd year. I have mark1 membrane.

I did a flow test at the end of the season the last 2 years as stated to do in the cdl manual with permeate. I got exactly the same flow rates both times at the end of each season and I have not had the membrane professionally washed yet. So it must be ok, but am open to criticism and comments. Note: It is my fault that I didn't get it there for a pro wash yet.

As far as iron....I don't know. I both times got 600 gallons of water from my house and hauled it over. the well on the farm definately has some iron there, so i don;t want to run that threw it.

[Thompson's Tree Farm]

OK, so I don't want to throw away sap. The first year I had my RO (great machine, lousy english instructions plus lousy dealer) I flushed it with my well water. Long and short of it was, I had about 80% performance all season...worse at the end. I have extremely hard water so may have more problems than some. Second year I used sap, better performance from the get go. Used about 250 gallons from my oldest tubing system and then used the permeate from that to re rinse. My machine is a 600 gallon. This year I have a second RO and will rinse my old one the same as last year and then use permeate from the first machine to rinse the second. What made my decision to go this route? Listening to someone with lots of experience with these machines. Thank You Beanie:)

[802maple]

This will be my last comment on this, if you are using a different membrane than others, it doesn't mean that you can get away with what the others are doing. Leader doesn't to my knowledge use the same membranes as Lapierre and CDL uses another membrane typically. If you don't have high iron counts then you can most likely get away with using well water, but unless I had a test in hand I would be nervous. Mark 1 users are the most at risk for using well water and 270 users are at the least risk and the rest fall somewhere in the middle. I like the Mark 1 because it leaves everything in the sap that mother nature put in it except for the water and it can go to 24% concentration without passing sugar, so I am not willing to screw with that. Like Doug has learned it cost him a lot more over the year in electricity and sleep lost for the the contamination that iron cost him them it does to dump a little syrup with a machine that is only delivering 80%. Sometimes we all even myself are willing to step over a dollar to pick up a dime

[Amber Gold]

What about getting one of those home RO units? They'll do about 100 gpd. Let it run for a couple of days. I've seen them used for ~$100 which would more than pay for itself the first rinse of the membranes.

[maplwrks]

Josh---If you are willing to spend $100 on a house hold RO, why wouldn't you be willing to throw away $70 worth of sap? I have done the same thing as Doug---I won't do it again....

[danno]

I would think those first 50-100 gallons of gunk that comes out of your taps each year would not not be very good for your membranes either, even after it has passed through your filter.

For you guys doing your first rinse with sap, are you dumping the first 50 gallons on the ground, and then running the next couple of hundred to rinse the membranes and then dumping that?

What rinse process are you using for brand new membranes - same couple hundred gallon rinse?

[Amber Gold]

Josh---If you are willing to spend $100 on a house hold RO, why wouldn't you be willing to throw away $70 worth of sap? I have done the same thing as Doug---I won't do it again....

Mike, Did I miss something? I thought it was 50 gal down the drain for the initial rinse, then switch to a concentrate cycle and send the concentrate down the drain while saving the permeate until you have another 50-100 gal of permeate to rinse the membranes again...so wouldn't this be another 80-160 gal of sap which would total 130-200 gal or almost $300 in lost syrup.

I'm trying to find a better way is all. I figure the home RO is a one time cost and can be used every year.

[maplwrks]

The idea of using sap to purge your membranes is simple---The sap (first runs)that you would be using to rinse is usually less than quality sap, it takes a couple of runs to get the lines clean.(many guys up this way run it on the ground) I choose to keep it and use it for something. 300 gallons of sap that has been concentrated won't flood my evaporator, and I won't use well water to rinse my membranes. I understand guys not wanting to throw away the precious liquid that we all dream of boiling for 10 months of the year, but really guys, it isn't that much in the grand scheme of things, and it's better for your machine.

[802maple]

I would think those first 50-100 gallons of gunk that comes out of your taps each year would not not be very good for your membranes either, even after it has passed through your filter.

For you guys doing your first rinse with sap, are you dumping the first 50 gallons on the ground, and then running the next couple of hundred to rinse the membranes and then dumping that?

What rinse process are you using for brand new membranes - same couple hundred gallon rinse?

I said I wouldn't say anymore, but I feel I need to answer this. Actually that first sap after going thru a filter has a certain acidic value that will help clean the membrane of preservative or other substances better then straight water, due to the fact that there is certain amount of sour sap in the lines, no matter how much you cleaned at the end of sugaring. Now I am officially done with this thread.

[Brent]

What rinse process are you using for brand new membranes - same couple hundred gallon rinse?

Actually every year should be the same as brand new membranes if you have put the correct preservative in at the end of each season.

[sapman]

Jerry, I appreciate you commenting again!

[markcasper]

Jerry, please comment at least one more time.

I use milkstone acid in my lines. I always let them ''flush'' out to the point that I can't taste it. Question would be if this sap would be ok to use in ro at beginning. I shoot shots of alcohol in the drop at tapping because that is the way I have always done it. Would that damage a membrane? As stated prior, I do let them run out and in the past have ran a few hundred gallons sap onto the ground.

[Amber Gold]

I hadn't considered the first run being dumped to begin with, so if it can be used to flush the membranes then it makes sense.

Curious though. I have an entirely new woods...all new mainline, tubing, fittings. Will I be making retail grade syrup from the start or does it need a run to rinse everything out...I'm thinking manufacturing residue on the tubing. If there are residues, can this sap be used to flush the membranes?

Thanks for the input.

[mapleack]

As an add on to this thread, I'm setting up my new lapierre 250. The instruction manual says that the new membranes must be "conditioned" before concentrating. It says to rinse for 15 min, then recirc 85 deg water to the wash tank for 45 min, then rinse to drain with 500 gal water. Not to get back to the argument earlier in this thread, but it says spring or well water can be used if it doesnt have a large mineral load. Unfortunately I don't know if it does, other than tasting good. Is this volume of rinse necessary for two 4" membranes or is this manual listing amounts for a larger machine? Thanks.

[Brent]

The French guys are notoriously bad for their instructions, especially the English translation. I have instructions embedded in my rig with 2 of the 4" membranes and the recipe for the caustic wash is for a machine with an 8" membrane.

The rule of thumb has been to use the equivalent to 1 hours flow to rinse. There is almost no such thing as low mineral content well or spring water in North America. The most damaging thing in our water is the iron content, which is about 4 times what the membrane makers spec. At our level of iron we get a little staining in the toilets.

[Brian Ryther]

mapleack, I read the same new manual that Lapierre is supplying this year. It did say to use regular water to do the conditioning, but on the face of the ro there is a sticker that states to use sap. I am confused. I will stick with sap to be safe.

[802maple]

I don't want to confuse things either, but if you talk to the Quebec, Canadians at times they will call the sap coming from a tree, water. The translation sometimes gets confused.

[Brent]

Canadians call sap sap and water water.

Quebecois may confuse the issue, after all you can't send
your kid to get schooled in English in Quebec.

[markcasper]

I noticed another translation thing that sounds goofy. It talks about blocking holes in the ro in the off season so as to not allow "vermin" to enter.

While i have heard of vermin before, around here it is referred as "rodents".

As long as on topic here. Where does the flavor-flavour, color-colour that type of thing come from?

[mapleack]

I'm going to use sap to rinse / condition it, though the manual says to use 500 gallons. I suspect that number is for a 600gph unit and the crappy manual doesn't differentiate. I'm hoping to only use about 150 gal. Anyone think this will cause problems? On a side note, when I installed the membranes last night, one of the "U Cup" O rings was kinked between the membrane and the wall of the storage container. Installed it anyway and crossed fingers. Whoever put the membrane in at the factory had to of noticed it. What happened to doing a good job?

[maplwrks]

You should be OK as long as the o-ring doesn't allow the raw sap to leak into the concentrate.

[Brent]

Cup seals and O-rings are cheap. You are going to put pretty good pressure on them. You won't know if they're leaking until its too late ... ie you'll discover that you're losing sugar into the permeate. If that happens you might lose so much that you have to shut down and then start the scramble. I'd get a new set set and put them on the shelf.

[maplwrks]

The o-ring that Andy is talking about separates the sap from the concentrate---he would be only putting sap into the concentrate.

[Brent]

Yes it may only be sap but if his machine recirculates behind that then the sugar content of partially concentrated and raw sap would have higher sugar content. The plumping on these things is not that easy to understand. The concentrate has to be pumped back through the system somewhere or it wouldn't be recirculating.

I had to sit down and make a diagram before I could understand mine and I am still only 75% confident that I've got it right.

[mapleack]

The o-ring that Andy is talking about separates the sap from the concentrate---he would be only putting sap into the concentrate.

Hmmm, I figured it was keeping concentrate from ending up in the permeate.

[Gary in NH]

I had to sit down and make a diagram before I could understand mine and I am still only 75% confident that I've got it right.

In theory the concentrate line should have a tee. One branch feeds back to the inlet side of the RO pump to go through the membrane again and the other branch is where the concentrate draw off comes from. An adjustable valve should regulate and balance the flow each way.