Question for Dr. Perkins

[backyardsugarer]

Dr.

I have been reading a lot of your posts about CV adapters. I have 800 taps I run under 23" of vac. The entire woods was new tubing and taps last year. Can I get away with one more year of the taps before I go over to CV's? I saw in one of your posts you mentioned tubing systems of 2 years plus. Thanks.

Chris

[DrTimPerkins]

I have been reading a lot of your posts about CV adapters. I have 800 taps I run under 23" of vac. The entire woods was new tubing and taps last year.

After 1 season of use, even with washing, vacuum tubing systems lose ~15-20% of their potential sap yield due to microbial contamination. You can slightly off-set that loss by using new spouts or spout adapters. You will off-set considerably more of that using CV spout adapters. So it depends upon what you're willing to give up. Economically, you're likely to come out ahead either either new spouts/adapters or CV adapters even after 1 yr, but your losses in a total yield sense (gal/tap) are not huge if you don't.

In general, the older your tubing system (and/spouts), the bigger the increase in yield (from a % improvement standpoing) is achieved by using new spouts, new drops, and/or CV adapters.

Read the following for more information http://www.uvm.edu/~pmrc/aging.pdf

[farmall h]

Yikes...how can one afford to replace spouts, tubing, and adapters every year or so? I can't imagine that there would be such an increase in sap to warrant this.

[maple flats]

I believe you just replace the drop and tap/CV. Most I think are using the CV with the old drop for a good gain.

[danno]

I asked at the conference - I don't think the research has been done comparing new CV's on old drops vs. new CV's on new drops. I believe I recall being told that that research is slated for this year.

[spud]

I think a while back i asked a simular question to Dr.Tim. If i am not mistaken i think he said change drops every other year. Just to change over to CVs on an 800 tap woods will cost $512.00 So the research says using regular spouts a second year will cause a 15-20% drop in sap yield. Lets say your 800 tap operation made you .35 gallons per tap=280 gallons syrup for the season. If you use the old spouts you might only make 224 gallons in the next season. That is a 56 gallon difference or a $1680-3360 loss(WHOLESALE-RETAIL). If you use new CVs every year you could increase your production by 25-100%. That means on your original 280 gallons with new standard spouts by just changing to new CVs you could make 350-560 gallons of syrup. I do realize that the weather can change everything and cause a far less syrup yield. But even so if the weather is bad it affects everyone. After reading everything i can on the CVs i think it is the only way to go. I trust research and feel people like Dr.Tim are a great asset to anyone that wants to reach max production in their woods. I hope everyone on Trader that is going to make the change to CVs will let the rest of us know how it goes. I wish everyone a great 2011 season. I envy you all.

Mike

[backyardsugarer]

I have two 3/4" mainlines that run into my releaser. I am going to put new CV adaptors on 1 side and on the other i am going to put the new seasonal spouts from Lapierre. I know it is unscientific because 1 part of the woods may get more sun or stay a little colder etc. However, I will now if these CV's work or not by April 10. The seasonal spouts are $.15 each and the stubby/CV are over $.65. Every year replacement on the CV's would be $ .35 at the current price and only $.15 for the seasonal spouts. Stay Tuned.

Chris

[DrTimPerkins]

I asked at the conference - I don't think the research has been done comparing new CV's on old drops vs. new CV's on new drops. I believe I recall being told that that research is slated for this year.

Both UVM and Cornell have looked at CVs, sometimes on new, sometimes on old drops. They are helpful in both situations. In general, the older your tubing (drops and laterals), the more they'll help. CVs don't help much on a totally new installation (very little microbial contamination to begin with). Some research has shown new spouts/drops to be slightly better, with CVs just a little lower, some has shown CVs on new drops to be the best, with CVs on old drops to be just slightly behind. These things are really fairly new, so it takes a bit of time to get enough results to be applicable to a variety of seasons. CVs were designed with the intention of preventing maple producers from having to periodically replace drops.

In 2009 we did two different studies, but they were fairly close to one another. In one case we had brand-new drops and new CVs. In the other we had old drops (used 5 yrs I think at that time) with new CVs. They produced almost exactly the same yield of sap, which far surpassed the used drops and new standard adapters we tried.

In 2010 we compared new drops and clear-straight-through spouts with new drops and CVs compared to 1 yr old drops and spouts. The 1-yr old system produced about half as much sap as the other two. Net profit using CVs compared to 1 yr old drops/spouts in that case was $8.40/tap (figuring sap at $0.50/gal). The CVs on new drops produced 17.5% (5.1 gal sap) more than the CST on new drops. Net profit of using CVs compared to CST (both on new drops) was $2.39/tap.

Steve Childs found a 151% increase comparing new spouts/drops to (very) old spouts/drops, net profit of $4.50/tap ....minus the cost of labor putting the drop together and installing it in the woods. He found a 114% increase comparing new CV on (very) OLD drops to a (very) old spout/drop, for a net profit of $3.89/tap. So it all depends upon what your labor is worth in that case, and whether you're willing to replace drops EVERY year.

Unfortunately we can only do a certain amount of research work each year given the # of trees, time, and financial resources we have. This year we are doing a large study of CVs on drops of a variety of ages (up to 7 yrs old....oldest tubing we have at the UVM PMRC), among several other studies.

[allgreenmaple]

Both UVM and Cornell have looked at CVs, sometimes on new, sometimes on old drops. They are helpful in both situations. In general, the older your tubing (drops and laterals), the more they'll help. CVs don't help much on a totally new installation (very little microbial contamination to begin with). Some research has shown new spouts/drops to be slightly better, with CVs just a little lower, some has shown CVs on new drops to be the best, with CVs on old drops to be just slightly behind. These things are really fairly new, so it takes a bit of time to get enough results to be applicable to a variety of seasons. CVs were designed with the intention of preventing maple producers from having to periodically replace drops.

In 2009 we did two different studies, but they were fairly close to one another. In one case we had brand-new drops and new CVs. In the other we had old drops (used 5 yrs I think at that time) with new CVs. They produced almost exactly the same yield of sap, which far surpassed the used drops and new standard adapters we tried.

In 2010 we compared new drops and clear-straight-through spouts with new drops and CVs compared to 1 yr old drops and spouts. The 1-yr old system produced about half as much sap as the other two. Net profit using CVs compared to 1 yr old drops/spouts in that case was $8.40/tap (figuring sap at $0.50/gal). The CVs on new drops produced 17.5% (5.1 gal sap) more than the CST on new drops. Net profit of using CVs compared to CST (both on new drops) was $2.39/tap.

Steve Childs found a 151% increase comparing new spouts/drops to (very) old spouts/drops, net profit of $4.50/tap ....minus the cost of labor putting the drop together and installing it in the woods. He found a 114% increase comparing new CV on (very) OLD drops to a (very) old spout/drop, for a net profit of $3.89/tap. So it all depends upon what your labor is worth in that case, and whether you're willing to replace drops EVERY year.

Unfortunately we can only do a certain amount of research work each year given the # of trees, time, and financial resources we have. This year we are doing a large study of CVs on drops of a variety of ages (up to 7 yrs old....oldest tubing we have at the UVM PMRC), among several other studies. This is good information, thanks for sharing. Some of these studies really are priceless, & improved production is really the end result obviously.

[kiegscustoms]

I have 450 health taps that were gravity last year. We just installed 800 more, all new tubing, fittings, drops, spouts and CV's. I heard someone say they might develop a CV for health spouts. I did not know if this was true, but I am trying to decide weather we should cut out all the spouts we put in new last year on the gravity side and replace them this year with stubbies and CV's, or run them with sanitary adapters and wait for a health spout CV.

[DrTimPerkins]

I have 450 health taps that were gravity last year. We just installed 800 more, all new tubing, fittings, drops, spouts and CV's. I heard someone say they might develop a CV for health spouts. I did not know if this was true, but I am trying to decide weather we should cut out all the spouts we put in new last year on the gravity side and replace them this year with stubbies and CV's, or run them with sanitary adapters and wait for a health spout CV.

I'm not sure what you mean about a "health spout" CV. If you mean a CV adapter that would fit on a Ecolo Health Spout....I really doubt it. Then again, I'm not always involved in the decision-making process or privy to what Leader (or any sub-licensees) decide to do with the technology. Your best bet would be to call Leader Evaporator Co. and ask.

[kiegscustoms]

I meant the "Tree Saver Spouts" 5/16 spout from Leader. I will give Nola a call but probably just swap out the 1 year old taps and try to sell them. Thanks Tim