How Many Taps Does it Take?

[Brian Ryther]

I know there are many variables but if a producer is on vacuum, and sells there product retail then how many taps does it take for a single producer to make a living? I am talking no employees, self-sustainable, single person income.

[red maples]

Make a living??? is that even possible!!! I guess if you have been doing it for years and your investents are paid off you have 10,000+ tap average 1 qt per tap at $60 per gallon retail, but if you can sell 2500 gallons of syrup retail my hat is off to you. (What's it like $40-$45 gal to sell bulk) thats $150,000.00 a year but that is before electricity, fuel, help, bottles, updates to equipment, etc. hmmmm good question.

[Thompson's Tree Farm]

How many notches smaller does your belt go:lol:

See you at he show

[maple flats]

I don't have a number, just a dream, but there are several producers who 's only income is from maple.
Yes, the equipment is expensive but if taken proper care of it lasts and lasts. Probably the shortest life is the tubing at 10-15 yrs, except the drops which are shorter. While we grow it is harder to live off maple but as you can slow growth slows when you reach your desired size (if that ever happens) you can live off it easier.
In most farming, while it is a good lifestyle, the ones making a living are the heirs who sell out and reap the equity in equipment. Lots of farmers are worth a lot but live like paupers.

[maplwrks]

Brian--I think you will need a couple thousand more taps and retail all of your syrup @ $45.00 a gallon to make it. It would really help if your wife had a $60,000 a year job also......

[Jim Brown]

Gentlemen; I read somewhere that around 1500 taps is the break even point for the profit side of this business. We have been able to do it with less but needed a "slush fund' until late to keep it running in the lean times. The fund was put together from business money and now it supports itself. Monies in and out of the fund to purchase equipt. or bulk syrup or supplies.

Thats what works for us.

Jim

[Scottie]

I use to make syrup commercially and it was always assumed that you needed about 15,000 to 18,000 taps to make money if you were going to sell the syrup you made in bulk. There are a lot of variables for instance whether you own the trees or lease, age of equipment, whether you are going to sell in bulk or retail. I also agree that your wife should have a good job to support the family in lean times.

[bobbyjake]

That has got to be a question with as many variables as, "What is this (USA) country coming to?"

Equipment choices & efficiency, property ownership versus lease(s), fuel source and cost, health of individual, wholesale/retail balance, ratio of container sizes sold and price per pint/quart/gallon.

Many non-sugaring related variables:
Lifestyle choices and spending habits, income potential otherwise, income of spouse, HEALTH INSURANCE, and on and on and on...

If someone has the answer, or the answer to my example question, I am all ears.

[3rdgen.maple]

Go find a producer with like 200,000 taps and go work for him:o. You get money and you get your maple fix.

[maple flats]

Brian--I think you will need a couple thousand more taps and retail all of your syrup @ $45.00 a gallon to make it. It would really help if your wife had a $60,000 a year job also......

$45 a gal is too low. You can sell bulk for too close to that. I think anyone selling gallons under $50 is not trying to make money. Last year I sold out at $54 a gal, with most sales in qts at $16 ($64 gal). Be realistic please.

[red maples]

Sold most of mine in 1/2 gal $32 qts $18 and pints $10 ( Matches regional prices) that's why I said retail $60 a gallon

[maplwrks]

I guess the whole point of my reply was the wifes' 60K income---you could afford to sell it at $45 then!!!

[ennismaple]

I agree that the easiest way to make a living making maple syrup is to work for someone else who pays you by the hour to stretch tubing, gather, boil etc...! That way you're guaranteed to make a profit.

[Monster Maples]

I just love making syrup and let my wife worry about the rest.:) When we make money I will know. I don't think we are there yet, I am still getting the cold shoulder and the hot tongue!! All kidding aside though I did read somewhere that 500 taps could make a profit fairly easy. Which thinking about it makes some sense. Lower operating costs, fewer jugs, easily sell all retail, cheaper and smaller equipment to be sufficient. But, That new stuff is too awesome to overlook. Who cares, lets just get ready to have some fun and do what we do, watch water boil;)

[Brian Ryther]

I agree that the easiest way to make a living making maple syrup is to work for someone else who pays you by the hour to stretch tubing, gather, boil etc...! That way you're guaranteed to make a profit.

This is my point. I see alot of 6 - 8 -10 thousand tap operations but they have 2 -3 - 4 people working the operation. I want to know what is the breaking point for a one man operation. You see some of these profiles with 10,000 taps but if you listen clostly you will hear them talk about taping crews, gathering crews, crews that cut into profits and add frustration to the process. Can one man do 6,000 alone. If he has the retail markets he has the potential to earn $150,000. Take 1/2 of that and re invest in the operation every year on consumables and up keep. Let the wife have the job with heath insurance. Not a bad living.

[Dave Y]

Brian,
I think I can make a living on 10,000 taps. But you must understand my children are grown and my house will be paid for and I will be retired when I get to 10,000. It all depends on what your debit load is and how high on the hog you want to live.

[peacemaker]

i think the first ?? should be how much would u consider a living ...and most households in the USAhave both husband and wife working .... so yes u could make a living at 500 taps

[red maples]

i think the first ?? should be how much would u consider a living ...and most households in the USAhave both husband and wife working .... so yes u could make a living at 500 taps


you can make a profit yes... a living... if you live under a bridge in a van down by the river!!!:lol:(Chris farley ref)

for a hopefully average year you could make $7500. depending on your house and where you live that could pay your property tax these days.

[Brian Ryther]

Speeking of vans down by the river, I want to hear from MtnVan. He was in the 2-3,000 tap range and was making a living. What about Maplecrest. When I met him he was in the 3,000 tap range and doing alright. Who else out there is retailing there syrup and making $60+/gal and making a modest living? I think after the initial investment, high vac, ro with retail sales, a person can make a sustainable living with 3-4,000 taps. With candy and cream and other confection I average over $60/gallon. With a properly instaled and matained high vac system a producer should get between 1/3 - 1/2 gal of syrup per tap. 3,000 taps = 1,500 gal of syrup x $60 = $90,000. Even if I put $40,000 back into consumables and production that leaves $50K. Am I being realistic? Does anybody do this?

[Thad Blaisdell]

Brian, this is a question that I have pondered many hours on. I believe 5000 is the absolute minimum to make a living. One man show. Run every thing tight and you should make 2000-2500 gallons of syrup. Now you have people on here saying sell it for $60-45, a gallon.... 60, come on. With 2000 + gallons you need to move syrup not sit on it. Base everything off bulk price. Right now its a little less than $30. That means you will make 60-75k per year. Now if you can sell some of the syrup by the gallon that is great maybe add another 5-10k annually. This will make a living and pay the bills. For you smaller producers its great that you get the big price for your syrup, but as a big producer I do not have (or want to have) the time to bottle and retail all of this syrup. This year I hope to make 4500+ gallons. I will again this year sell gallons of syrup out of my sugarhouse for $35 (maybe $36because of the cost of oil) during the sugaring season. Some think I am crazy, but, I am willing to sell for 30 in the barrel, cost 2.50 for as container, and it takes no time at all to bottle right out of the filter press. Last year I sold over 300 gallons during March. That was an extra $750. I am hoping to sell 1000 gallons like that this year. Better me than Bascoms.

So I hope this rambeling helps you out.

[vtmaplemaker]

you get up to the 6-7k tap area, you will need help unless you are lucky enough to have it all run into your sugarhouse... I do up in that range, and have to truck all my sap from 3 bushes, the furthest is 11 miles away. I have a few friends that help me tap in (I buy the beer they consume) and I have 1 guy that hauls 1, 400 gal load of sap for me every day on his way home from work, other then that I struggle through it all... As far as a living goes, yes you can do it off 6k taps. If you are trying to do it off less then 3k, you are collecting unemployment, social security, or something else to supplement.

[Randy Brutkoski]

I am thinking the same thing you are. I want to do this for a living. This is my first year boiling and i have 6000 taps, ( have always sold my sap in the past). I have another 3000 taps at least lined up for next year. So I am hoping to get done with my job in a year or 2. But this year will tell me alot after my crop. There is no turning back now. Thats what i tell my wife anyways.

[vtmaplemaker]

I will again this year sell gallons of syrup out of my sugarhouse for $35 (maybe $36because of the cost of oil) during the sugaring season. Some think I am crazy, but, I am willing to sell for 30 in the barrel, cost 2.50 for as container, and it takes no time at all to bottle right out of the filter press. Last year I sold over 300 gallons during March. That was an extra $750. I am hoping to sell 1000 gallons like that this year. Better me than Bascoms.

.

I have to agree that $60 is great if you can get it, but unrealistic in a big sugaring area like Thad or myself live in.. I also think that selling syrup for under $40 a gallon is only hurting every sugarmaker. You have to remember that on top of the bulk price, you have the container, bottling time, time you deal with the buyer, your product liability, the liability of people on your property ect. If $35 a gallon is the quality of the gallon of syrup your selling, or you like giving your stuff away, I guess thats your choice though..

[Randy Brutkoski]

I think that $45 is a reasonable price.

[Thad Blaisdell]

$45 is reasonable. I am only selling retail during the sugaring season. Volume is what I am going for..... thinking of the future. Building a customer base.

Qouting vtmaplemaker. If $35 a gallon is the quality of the gallon of syrup your selling, or you like giving your stuff away, I guess thats your choice though..

Quality has nothing to do with it. Its Quantity that I am selling. I am not selling it all year long. By the first of May all of my syrup is gone... one way or another.

[Brian Ryther]

I am very diferent than you guys in that I can and do sell all of my syrup retail. This also includes candy, cream, maple coated nuts, sugar. This is how I am able to get $60+ / gal. That is why I am able to spend the time bottling and making confections all year. I get to spend my work days in the summer smelling syrup on the stove cooking up for more candy and cream. It takes a lot of time but you are compensated for it with the higher $/gal. You guys kow how Bascoms smells when you drop off your bulk. My kitchen smells like that all summer. So when you work your tails off for $30/gallon with 6000 taps, I hope to get the same amount of $ for 3,000 taps.

[shane hickey]

I have read all the threads on here and I would have to agree with thad. I sell
90% of mine whole sale, Its contracted before it's evan made, The only promblem in doing it this way if it a craping season I have to buy it from somewhere else to fill the contract. I do get $38.00 a gallon but once its in a barrell it's done. Bigger operation dont have a lot of time on there hands to sit around and can syrup, It's a very fast paist and there wouldn't be enogh time in a day to can 4000 gallons of syrup.

shane

[Maplewalnut]

Brian I think you answered your own question. If you can continue to sell retail you can make operations much less than 10k taps profitable

[Thad Blaisdell]

I would still have to say that 5000 taps would be the cut off for me. And with that number I would do a lot more retail.

The old saying, There is more than one way to skin a cat.

[220 maple]

Another great question on the Mapletrader Site. I sell wholesale and retail. I usually sell three barrels wholesale and the rest retail. I have found that the best way to get max dollars for your syrup is value add, that being candy or coated nuts, Maple Candy drives the price per gallon for me to 72 dollars, the coated nut price per gallon is so high that I will not state it here. Those of you that are selling maple coated nuts know! The rest won't believe me. I'm 52 years old and I hoping to retire by 58 and go Maple fulltime. I only have my product in three stores one of them is unreal, buying nearly 3 thousands dollars worth themself and moving it all. I have a friend who delivers speciality items to two hundred stores, he feels he could get my product in 100 stores. He asked me last spring to come up with some prices so he and I could make some money. I have not had the time to follow up on his request, the market is there I feel sure. If I get everything open this spring I will be over 3000 taps. If they produce like last season then I may have to push my product to more stores and go to more festivals.

Mark 220 Maple

[spud]

I am glad this question was asked. I really enjoyed reading everyones thoughts on this topic. It's a no brainer that smaller producers can sell most if not all their syrup retail. I think it's great that you can make $60+ a gallon. Growing up in northern Vermont we had hundreds of people in our area all making syrup. There was no way on Gods green earth you were going to sell much of your syrup retail. I can see other states selling more retail because there is not as much competition in your areas. As far as making a living at sugaring it all depends on how much money you feel you need to make. If you have no debt then 2000-3000 is very possible. I always sold everything bulk because i wanted my money right away. Thads way of looking at it makes alot of since for the larger operations or for the people that don't want to waste their time putting their syrup in bottles. Although i think it's great to see others being creative by making sugar, candy and other things and selling retail. I hope everyone has a great season and does well. All you guy's and gal's are living my dream. I can't wait to move back to Vermont so i can join in on all the fun.:)

[red maples]

one thing that could be good if your looking to make just about the average bulk pricing. There is a maple company in tilton, NH " just maple". His web site it set up to sell maple products that's it. thee is no cute story Like the rest of us have (I think it helps to show my love and enjoyment personally!!! )The stuff is everywhere. he's got all the tourist traps in the lakes region, I see his stuff in the apple crest orchard store in Hampton, down by me. I don't know how much he buys and how much he makes, but I just know it's everywhere.

So If your a good salesman and your willing to put in your time on street going door to door that would help your bottom line!!!

Over time during the season reg Full time job the rest of the year.

[BryanEx]

There is a maple company in tilton, NH " just maple". His web site it set up to sell maple products that's it.

Here ya go - http://www.justmaple.com/ :)

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

I have a financial degree and I thing I can say that will help anyone do a lot better than is trying to make a living farming/maple syrup or etc. You can't buy every new thing that comes along. That's fine if you are doing it as a hobby and don't care if you make money, but just like cars, trucks and electronics, there are new ones coming out every year and there is always the temptation to buy, newer, better, faster, you name it. All this marketing crap we get fed on TV is probably the biggest contributor the to downfall of our economy and the huge mess we are in.

Yes, a newer evaporator might boil a touch faster and a little more efficient than the one we have, but it might set you back $ 10,000 and next year or the year after, a better one will come out. It is often a good idea to upgrade if it is going to pay for itself in savings, but if you are basically running an operation yourself and that is what you do year around, labor savings is not really a selling point because your time is really not worth anything from a labor savings perspective unless you simply don't have any more time and are working all day every day in the the maple business year around.

[Hop Kiln Road]

The biggest issue is marketing. The total annual, global production of maple syrup only allows 2 ounces for each of the top 10% of the wealthiest people on the planet. However, our collective marketing is mired in the 19th century and still uses terms like food grade plastic and Grade B.

Most of the successful global agricultural niches emerged from regional cooperatives, for marketing and production. Ocean Spray, Bordeaux and Napa Wines for instance. Perhaps we should be looking at 50,000 tap geographic cooperatives and then 10 of the cooperatives cutting a deal with the likes of a global retailer like Starbucks.

The Canadians, with their recent interest in researching the antioxident properties of maple syrup, are probably looking more for a global marketing lever than local health tonic!

[red maples]

Very true brandon, I try to live by "if it aint broke don't fix it". But sometimes Ihave to give in.

[PATheron]

I think its a personal thing too becouse of all the variables involved. I like how Brian does it becouse he can make half the syrup I do and make the same money. By the same token I have no interest in peddling any of it retail becouse I just dont want to do that type of work. So for me Im happy to just try to make twice as much syrup and try to make the same money. Im kind of a volume guy for a little guy. I think that you have to be smart with the equipment buying. Buy good quality, a lot of my stuff is used, and try not to get too far in debt to a time, pay the stuff off and then crank out the syrup and hopefully make some money for a long time. I think the best money is doing as much as you can buy yourself and try to be as efficient as possable. My two cents. R.O's and good vac pumps, thats me. Theron:)

[PATheron]

and have fun, its sugaring after all. Theron

[red maples]

and have fun, its sugaring after all. Theron

Thats it right there. I still have a bunch of little things to do in to do in the woods and in the sugarhouse but its all fun. Once it becomes work that I am dreading to do and don't want to do. Then its time to scale back to where it becomes fun again. I think if you really depend on the money, then it might not be as fun because it becomes an obligation.

Where I am now is ...I love my family and love spending time with them but you just wanna be in the woods or in the SH thats when I get a little anxious!!!;)

[OneLegJohn]

I love this thread. However, I could write a book on the answer. Very candidly the answer, from this investor's standpoint, is zero taps. If it is money you want in the maple industry, you shouldn't make a single drop. Be a broker. Your ROI is higher and you do not have the outlay of cash for equipment and time, just inventory and storage. Basically, you become a salesman and develop contracts. However, everyone has different skill-sets, some are talented in production/operation, some are talented marketing minds, and some have both.

[Thad Blaisdell]

For me sugaring allows me to not have a boss.... or be the boss of anyone else. I can go to the woods and no one talks back to me or tells me what to do or where to go. I have been the boss of up to 5 employees and been the employee. I hated both. With the set up I have now I dont have to worry about either. I make my syrup, sell it, and dont worry about it. I figured that 5000 taps is the point at which you can make a living doing it my way. So I now have doubled that so that I can afford all the latest and nicest things.... RO, tanks, pans, presses, etc. I do this to make my job easier and allow me to do it by myself.

[Brian Ryther]

Thank you Thad. That was the kind of response I was looking for. I was also in charge of up to 75 head aches and have bee the low man working for some one else. I only want to be responsable for my self. Any mistake will be my own, any sucesse I will be proud of. 5,000 (modern) taps sold bulk you could make a living. 10,000 and you can take a vacation once a year. So my line of thinking is 3,000 (modern) taps sold retail should be enough to keep me above water. 6,000 and I could justify a new Force Five. For those of you that think that once you make syrup for a living it is no longer fun I completly disagree. 9 months of the year you are able to make your own schedule. 3 months you are at the mercy of the weather. You get to talk, smell and live maple every day. Yes I do wait to enjoy a boilling soda once the boiling is done, to much at stake that could go wrong, but that is a sacrafice I am willing to make. And I think Theron would agree with me that sugaring is not just fun but can be down right exciting.

[PARKER MAPLE]

I think that this thread has made alot of people, like myself start thinking more and more about the maple bussiness. speaking for myself, im self employed and trying to make a buck whatever way i can. Although maple sugaring to me is just a hobby, reading your post has really got me thinking about stuff. I do have serveral producers around me that make a good living off doing this. And i know they are very serious when this time of year rolls around. then about May hits and they are as laid back as can be and seams as if they are making there own scheduals, and doing as they please. For me it would be easy to make this work if I could just find the property owners that had the trees and were willing to let me do my thing there. Thats the hardest part for me.. Do you guys have any advice on how you go about getting new woods to tap, how you ask the land owners and perpose your grand scheam of things to them????

Thanks Maple Rookie

[Thad Blaisdell]

Find the woods and ask if it could be bought.... then ask if they will do owner financing. Tell them what you have in mind. You may be surprised. I did this with two of my neighbors. One I had never met. I believe in owning the land where ever possible. Then no one can tell you what to do.

[peacemaker]

amen thad on the owning it
]

[shane hickey]

I think that this thread has made alot of people, like myself start thinking more and more about the maple bussiness. speaking for myself, im self employed and trying to make a buck whatever way i can. Although maple sugaring to me is just a hobby, reading your post has really got me thinking about stuff. I do have serveral producers around me that make a good living off doing this. And i know they are very serious when this time of year rolls around. then about May hits and they are as laid back as can be and seams as if they are making there own scheduals, and doing as they please. For me it would be easy to make this work if I could just find the property owners that had the trees and were willing to let me do my thing there. Thats the hardest part for me.. Do you guys have any advice on how you go about getting new woods to tap, how you ask the land owners and perpose your grand scheam of things to them????

Thanks Maple Rookie

Maple Rookie when I look for more woods to tap I simply get in my truck and take a plat book with me and start knocking door to door. First thing I tell them I pay 80 cents tap that way money talks. 80% of the time I get turned down but the once in a while they say yes. Dont get discouraged if they say no. I usally expect a negative answer, I hate doing this because I feel loike a bible salesman but you'll never grow if you never ask. I always get at least a 5 year contract if it can be tubed, some only want buckets on their property, then I pay 55 cents because of the labor in it. When ever you talk to someone make sure you mention money first, some will negiate and will ask if they can have syrup instead of money which would be a win win for you.
I usally start asking the beginning of december when people need money for christmas gifts. Times are hard for some people so they will say yes rite away.
If there is a woods that another producer is looking into pay alot to make sure you get it, this stops your compition from growing plus gives you more taps, I had to do this once. the other guy was pretty upset with me, he figured that I had enough and didn't need it. I simply told him if he really wanted it he should of paid more. This is buisness and I am only getting bigger every year. shane

[jdj]

I haven't been on the trader in a while but I did read through all the replies to this thread and one thing I didn't see mentioned(maybe I missed it?) was RETIREMENT. When we are young and healthy things are great but what about when we get old and not so healthy and unable to make syrup with no employees? My point is don't forget to figure in the cost of a retirement plan, A good retirement plan won't be cheap.

[shane hickey]

retirement whats that? I hoped to be dead before I retire.

[jdj]

retirement whats that? I hoped to be dead before I retire.

This may well be how you feel now but what if some tragic were to happen to you, like a stroke or a life changing accident? Where would your income come from if you were unable to make syrup and syrup is/was your only source of income?

[Thad Blaisdell]

That can happen to anyone at anytime. If you worry about the what ifs then you dont spend time doing the things that have got to happen. As far as retirement, I am 40 now I will draw my social security in 27 years:lol: that should get me through.

[shane hickey]

I'm 27 I dont know if social security will be there for me but I started an IRA 2 yeas ago and told them to be real aggresive with it. If I put $2000 every year then there should be something there for me. shane.

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

Best investment is a Roth account whether it be an IRA or 401k. Everything it makes over its life it tax free including all investments are they are taxed before you put them in it. $ 2000 @ might sound like quite a bit, but it won't be enough to retire on. If you can put in at least 10% or more of income would be good and should be sufficient.

[lpakiz]

I plan to retire @62 in less than a year. If anyone asks for my point of view, I say "Pay yourself FIRST!" You guys that get a regular paycheck should have some withheld and direct-deposited in some sort of retirement program every pay period. If the employer has a 401 and will match some of your with holding, TAKE the MAX!! If the employer won't go along with a with holding plan, direct deposit your checks to a savings account and have an automatic transfer of a set amount to your spending or checking account (or your brokerage firm) each pay period. Then every time you get a raise, up the amount to take most of the raise. Invest the amount left in the savings account regularly and FAITHFULLY!!
Get a good financial advisor and pay him a flat rate to advise you about what stocks or mutual funds or bonds, etc. you should own. My guy cost $500 per year and comes to the house twice a year. Couple days after he leaves, I get a notice to "sell 40% of this and buy that--sell 100% of this and buy $3000 of that and the rest buy the other...."

I GUARANTEE you I did not miss it, and I did not work at real high-paying jobs. Start this at 30 YO or so and you will be surprised at what you have at 60. Wait till 52 YO and you will never catch up. Don't over-insure yourself either. IMHO

[markcasper]

Get out of all paper!

[ennismaple]

I agree that everyone has a different business model and what works for you may not work for me. We sell about 20% in bulk, 40% wholesale and 40% retail. We don't have our own retail store - we simply sell to friends, family, co-workers and in a variety of containers. I personally sell over 125 gallons per year this way and get well above $60/gallon when you average out all sizes and subtract container and label costs. These sales are little effort as people come to me - an easy $5k more profit with the only work being a bit of time to re-heat syrup on the kitchen stove from time to time.

I'd love to do this full-time but with 2 young kids and a mortgage its not feasible. Maybe 20+ years from now when retiring from my 9-5 job is on the distant horizon I'll look at it more closely. For now, it's play money.

[Brian Ryther]

I haven't been on the trader in a while but I did read through all the replies to this thread and one thing I didn't see mentioned(maybe I missed it?) was RETIREMENT. When we are young and healthy things are great but what about when we get old and not so healthy and unable to make syrup with no employees? My point is don't forget to figure in the cost of a retirement plan, A good retirement plan won't be cheap.

I hear it again and again. "when I retire I will make syrup." Go to any maple confrence or seminar and most of the people in atendance will be retired. I am taking an early retirement (33) and going make syrup.
I do have a pretty good Openhimer fund from when I worked a "reguar" job.

[Randy Brutkoski]

I am 36 and plan on selling my potatoe chip route in another year or 2, and doing maple full time. That has been my plan for a couple years now. Bryan, do you want to buy that 3000 gallon plastic tank back that you sold me last year? I dont need it anymore. I will let it go for a good price.

[jdj]

I hear it again and again. "when I retire I will make syrup." Go to any maple confrence or seminar and most of the people in atendance will be retired. I am taking an early retirement (33) and going make syrup.
I do have a pretty good Openhimer fund from when I worked a "reguar" job.

No Brian.......I make syrup now and I'm not retired but when I do retire I hope to continue sugaring.

[allgreenmaple]

I am 36 and plan on selling my potatoe chip route in another year or 2, and doing maple full time. That has been my plan for a couple years now. Bryan, do you want to buy that 3000 gallon plastic tank back that you sold me last year? I dont need it anymore. I will let it go for a good price. If he doesn't , pm me, I may need it if that big bush comes on.....

[markcasper]

I would not be too quick to get out of a stable job just to go sugaring. As far as those depending on 401k's, IRA's, and pensions, TAKE WARNING! Washington and Wall Street together have every intention of stealing them. The bill has been prepared and our politicians and Wall Street are waiting for the right moment to jam it through. I don't know about you, but a whole lifetime of working and saving wiped out in the blink of an eye does not seem to appealing to me. If you have any of those types of plans I would strongly consider liquidating them before its too late. Its coming and many are asleep, all you can do is keep trying to warn others.

[allgreenmaple]

I would not be too quick to get out of a stable job just to go sugaring. As far as those depending on 401k's, IRA's, and pensions, TAKE WARNING! Washington and Wall Street together have every intention of stealing them. The bill has been prepared and our politicians and Wall Street are waiting for the right moment to jam it through. I don't know about you, but a whole lifetime of working and saving wiped out in the blink of an eye does not seem to appealing to me. If you have any of those types of plans I would strongly consider liquidating them before its too late. Its coming and many are asleep, all you can do is keep trying to warn others. You may be more right than you think. Personally, I don't doubt that they would blink an eye before taking what is rightfully yours & mine. Washington politicians are not your friends.

[lew]

Something to consider before going to an all maple income is "what if the bulk market changes?" right now it is easy to get $2.50+ per pound for most grades of syrup. I can't remember the exact year, sometime in the late 80's I believe, the bulk market took a huge downturn. We were getting $2.25+ for light syrup then. American Maple was the big buyer, oil was dirt cheap, labor plentiful, willing and cheap, life was good. We used to go around at the end of the season when the sap was getting nasty saying "?if we can pump it we won't dump it". You could make money at $1.00 per pound for nasty comercial. Everybody is all excited about $3.00 per pound syrup now. It should be well above that now, but the bulk market collapsed partly due to when American Maple got caught adulturating syrup (at least that is part of the reason I am told). It took 15+ years to get syrup back to its present price. I remember selling fancy syrup in the spring of "92 during the season for $1.65 per pound, I sold too much and had to buy back syrup in the fall (from a broker) for $1.15 per pound. The following spring it was $0.95 per pound. What will everyone here that wants to go to predominantly maple income do if the bulk market heads south like it did then? I don't want to be the spreader of doom and gloom (or a believer for that matter), but I believe the market will take a down turn in the next 5+ years. I hope I am wrong, but that's my opinion and the opinion of several others that I have talked to that lived through the last downturn. Maybe it will continue to grow for the next 100 years, I don't know. But if you are considering maple as a 100% income source, it is something to consider.

[Thad Blaisdell]

lew, everything we do is a risk. Waking up in the morning and getting in your car is a risk. For each individual here you have to way that risk and determine what risk level you can live with. Most of the people I am familiar with here on the trader have other occupations and skills that they can fall back on. I know I do. But there can be money to be made in them thar hills.

[Maplewalnut]

Should I become a realtor (what if housing takes a downturn).... should I become a paid fireman (what if city lays off a few personnel to make budget) should I enter sales (what if my company cuts back because nobody is buying)....

I agree a downturn in the syrup market is something to consider but how many of us with 'real jobs' havent been faced with similiar considerations in our line of work. No one job is immune to an economic downturn and if you have weighed the pros and cons and worked out the specifics to make a living doing syrup, my hats off to you! Go for it.

[DrTimPerkins]

Something to consider before going to an all maple income is "what if the bulk market changes?"

I'm not a expert in commodities pricing by any means, however in my opinion the biggest difference from earlier times that will help to prevent a massive drop-off in bulk syrup prices is the Quebec Maple Producer's Federation. They negotiate the market price for syrup in Quebec and aren't about to let it drop too far (below production costs + some profit margin). That price pretty effectively trickles down into the U.S. Of course they have a quota there that helps to prevent overproducing for the market, whereas the U.S. doesn't. However given their proportion of the total production, they pretty much control production in a major way. The other factor is their strategic reserve. Right now it is fairly low compared to what it was years ago when they had a huge surplus, and there is a need to build it back up some. As long as they are doing that (buying syrup to store), the market is fairly stable.

In my viewpoint, there is just as much danger in not producing enough syrup as there is in producing too much. Industrial users can't deal with prices fluctuating due to shortages (like they did a few years ago...remember the $4.00/lb syrup). If there isn't enough syrup made so that the prices skyrocket, they drop maple syrup as an ingredient, which makes demand for syrup go down and prices drop.

I don't think anyone should lament the loss of American Maple. I doubt that had very much of an influence on bulk prices. There were several other places around to pick up the slack.

[Brian Ryther]

Lew,
Your conserns are real and apreciated. I am able to sell my table grade syrup retail. That price and market is pretty well set. I do however count partialy on the commerical bulk market to dump my late season mersh. That is a real part of my estimated income. I was not happy to see Bruce Bascom prediction in the Bascom Catalogue for Commerical bulk pricing. This is why I am pleased that I have invested this year in all SS tanks and re worked my sugar house with all SS pipe line that is easly taken down and cleaned. It was money that not only looks good, but will pay for it self with greater % of table grade syrup. I have had a lot of sleepless nights thinking about the money I have spent this pre season. But when I consider the quick return on the investment I can not think of a better (legal) investment then Maple production.

[tuckermtn]

Brian- have you thought about using your welding skills to do some maple fabrication in the "off" season?

[Brian Ryther]

Eric,
How many Evap / maple product fabricators did you see in verona? 10?, 15?. I have been welding for a living for too long. I will plumb a sugar house with ss pipe line if any body wants. But recently I pretty much only weld / fab for the brewery down the street. I can make a great living traveling, working plant outages or building bridges but no longer. I missed too much of my childrens early years beacuse of work. It did afford me to make the intial investment in my maple venture. I also have all of the equiptment if I should ever need to hit the road and weld again. That is my insurance policy.

[shane hickey]

Eric,
How many Evap / maple product fabricators did you see in verona? 10?, 15?. I have been welding for a living for too long. I will plumb a sugar house with ss pipe line if any body wants. But recently I pretty much only weld / fab for the brewery down the street. I can make a great living traveling, working plant outages or building bridges but no longer. I missed too much of my childrens early years beacuse of work. It did afford me to make the intial investment in my maple venture. I also have all of the equiptment if I should ever need to hit the road and weld again. That is my insurance policy.wELL Brian if you out this way stop by I'll have enough work for you for at least 2 weeks welding ss. let me know when you need your insurance to kick in. shane

[lew]

Please don't take me wrong, if you can make it purely on maple, I envy you. I know that I tied me dreams to a soley maple income years ago. But due to many factors i was unable to fulfill that dream and eventually had to get a "real" job. I now am building to a point that will substantially increase my income, but will not trust maple to be my sole income. I only brought out the points I made earlier so that others would take them into consideration before taking that risk. I realize all too well that everything we do is a risk, even getting out of bed in the morning. My risk didn't pay off then, maybe it will now, times are different. Just having been bit once makes me leary when I hear others thinking of the path I once took. I sincerely hope they make it to the end of that path. I just want them to make the journey with their eyes wide open.