Why not mild steel for pans?

[Jim Schumacher]

I received an email from a customer requesting a quote for a pan to be made out of mild steel. I called him to discuss his plans and reminded him that the industry standard for maple products or any food is 300 series stainless and that I would advise against mild steel. He made it clear that it was not because of the cost of ss that he wanted mild steel. He was told by some one who has been making syrup for 25 years that ss and modern evaporators make poor tasting syrup and that they scorch the syrup too easily. He went on to tell me that this experienced gentleman believes in old ways, runs 500 taps, and boils on five oil-drum evaporators with steel pans all at once during the peak of the season. As the conversation progressed he asked me how thick I can make the pans... I told him that the more typical question is how thin I can make them... He wants them a minimum of 1/8" but said thicker would be better. I thought for sure he was messing with me...until he emailed a plan that he had made on auto-CAD.
My main question is this. What SPECIFICALLY is wrong with using mild steel for boiling sap? His mentor just scuffs the rust off the surface of the pans every season and considers it to be clean. I'm not trying to upsell him, just want things to be right.

Jim

[shane hickey]

I have never heard of such a thing all that I can tell you, is that, that evaporator will not pass inspection, Mild steele has a little bit of oil residue on it yes you can clean it with mineral spirits, Then have the problem of cleaning that. I know you know this already but a 1/8 inch thick wow.That will take a lot of heat to get the sap to boil.

[Bucket Head]

Is the syrup he plans on making just for himself? If he's marketing it, it should be stainless, for obvious reasons. However, mild steel would be fine for personal use syrup. The first pan we had made was 1/8" mild steel. Two foot by one and a half, with a handle at each end. It never rusted. The soot coated the outside and the syrup "sugars over" the inside. You never scrub that coating off- similiar to not scrubbing hard the lead soldered seams on the older factory pans. Many guys have used mild steel for pans.

Steve

[markcasper]

When I first started I used my grandpas pan and there was no discussion as to what it was made of. Its over 100 years old now. The second year I used a brand new galvanized pan.

[Haynes Forest Products]

I say make the pans. I once scrubbed a guys cast iron skillet and you would have thought I violated his wife. So you can get a Teflon headache from burning a coated pan. Really once the pan has been heated and cleaned and then used to boil sap what is the danger. Next you will be telling me not to use a old metal refriderator shelf for a camping grill or the steel lawn rake we use for roasting 12 hotdogs at a time :mad:

[sugarmountain]

I like the hot dog idea! I am so doing that! I like the way you think haynes, people get so caught up in the modern way it discourages young people and beginners. How many of us started in a washtub in the back yard and we are still kickin! Obviously we grow and get on board with efficent systems and clean safe means of production for saleable products but nothing wrong with the old ways to get started either. just my two cents.

[petersp22]

Is this the kind of customer you want? Follow your principles.

[Big_Eddy]

I've used a steel pan for years without issue, but I am moving to a stainless pan for this season. As others have said - the steel pan gets a soot residue on one side and a sugar coating on the other and there are no problems with rust. Every several years I would take a wire brush to mine to clean it up.

However, the accepted standard is stainless, and any inspector is going to be looking for stainless. As a manufacturer, you need to hold yourself to a higher standard than those of us making our own pans. You have vendor liability for your products that we do not need to worry about.

I would politely decline the job and point him to his closest welding shop. Any reasonable welder can make a mild steel pan of 1/8" material.

[Haynes Forest Products]

All this Moralizing about how everyone should do it because thats how I'm doing it "NOW". Sugarmountain Im with you. I guess Im going to hell in a handbasket because when someone askes me to make them something that I dont agree with I DO the best I can. I will listen to what they want and OFFER suggestions. BUT I will still build it. WHO does sending him down the road to someone else benefit Jim??? Its not like he is mass producing burglery tools or sawing off Shotguns withing 1,000 of a school :rolleyes: Make the pans JIM and post the pictures of your good work

[Thad Blaisdell]

All this Moralizing about how everyone should do it because thats how I'm doing it "NOW". Sugarmountain Im with you. I guess Im going to hell in a handbasket because when someone askes me to make them something that I dont agree with I DO the best I can. I will listen to what they want and OFFER suggestions. BUT I will still build it. WHO does sending him down the road to someone else benefit Jim??? Its not like he is mass producing burglery tools ort sawing off Shotguns withing 1,000 of a school :rolleyes: Make the pans JIM and post the pictures of your good work

And tell him that you want to try some of that award winning syrup.

[lastwoodsman]

I'm with you Haynes!!
Like everything else in a few years some expert will be telling us how bad this is or how good this is when they do their flipflop.
The fish in Minnesota lakes and rivers have enough mercury in them I can read on their sides how hot the frying pan is before I throw them in.
Our guess is closer than their so called research.
I have photos in old farm magazines of the local government dusting the school yard with DDT while the kids are eating lunch at the picnic tables. Detailing the wonders of DDT. This was OK'ed by the (EXPERTS) There was nothing wrong with that at the time.
I am sure the native americans would never get by collecting in birch bark containers or boiling in logs any longer--
If you are using it for friends and family and not selling it enjoy the sport.

Woodsman

[Gary R]

500 taps for home use? He must have one BIG family:rolleyes:

[Bernie/MA]

I've been welding/fabbing for almost 40 years and have built several pans out of .090 6061 aluminum. None of them ever melted or gave any problems. Some were flat and some had dividers. I acqured a press brake a few years ago and am making a die that I hope will work to make a small flue pan for my grandson. I've been "retired" for 10 years.

I made my own aluminm pan to see if could be done back in the eighties and used it for several years until my welding business picked up. It was not cost effective after that with only 200 taps.

[tessiersfarm]

Here in Maine there is no where in the maple syrup laws that says pans need to be stainless, simply adequate for use. Peolpe have been cooking on cast iron for just about forever, so as long as you are willing to maintain a clean sanitary pan, more power too you. As far as thickness I agree a thick pan would be real hard to burn.

[BoarsNest]

I think if someone wants regular carbon steel pans that's fine and they should use what they want for their own use. If there are industry standards for selling food products then they should comply with those standards.

One thing that I find interesting is all the discussion about 304 stainless which is a premium stainless. I don't see anyone ever talk about 201 stainless which is approved for food service yet is quite a bit cheaper. I used that in my pans and it worked great.

[sugarmountain]

There is allways a better way, unfortunatly sometimes they are not available to everyone. We all market our products as a pure quality product and take great pride in making, consuming and selling them but we all have to start somewhere. I think most anyone will realize that the volume prduced by a sugarmaker works hand in hand with there equipment and customer base. Anyone selling a product wont sell it long if its got a funny taste or is potentialy hazordus. once youre hooked, your gonna upgrade your equipment. There isnt a sugarmaker alive that doesnt have an addiction for stainless!

[DrTimPerkins]

If there are industry standards for selling food products then they should comply with those standards.

There are (voluntary) maple industry standards that have been in place since 2002. They were devised by representatives of the maple equipment manufacturers, along with regulatory and research personnel. These cover not only the materials that are allowed for each type of equipment, but also some aspects of manufacture.

Unfortunately they are not available in a way that is easily accessible unless you register first (or have a hard copy).

http://www.docstoc.com/docs/32030340/STANDARDS-ON-MAPLE-EQUIPMENT-INTENDED-FOR-THE-PRODUCTION-OF-MAPLE

I can't vouch for that website, as I already have a personal copy and didn't register to see what is actually there.

This is just ONE reason that equipment from the major maple equipment manufacturers tends to be more expensive. They put the time and energy into doing all this work to ensure that things are done correctly. If you want to be certain about a piece of equipment, ask if it conforms to the LMEA maple industry standards. If they look at you strangely and can't come up with an answer...you decide if they should be making maple equipment.

[3fires]

What would be the negative or hazardous effect of using mild steel in the first place? Does it leach chemicals or something into the syrup?

[Mike Van]

The big grills & griddles used in resturants, what are they made of? I don't think they are stainless. I really find it hard to believe that better tasting syrup is made in non stainless equipment. There must be some benifits to stainless, as it's pretty much all you see around food products. Years ago, surgeons didn't wear rubber gloves either.

[DrTimPerkins]

What would be the negative or hazardous effect of using mild steel in the first place? Does it leach chemicals or something into the syrup?

Biggest drawback would be rust during the off-season. They would likely leach some iron into the sap/syrup between boils. Heat transfer would probably not be as efficient. Harder to make sanitary welds with the thicker plate. Way heavier.

Nothing hazardous that I'm aware of....just different than the "normal" situation, and therefore, not "standard."

[ennismaple]

There isnt a sugarmaker alive that doesnt have an addiction for stainless!

Aint nothin' prettier than a brand new stainless evaporator or tank! A new section of woods with the sun glimmering off thousands of feet of blue tubing is a close second.

[RileySugarbush]

Other than the rust issue, steel is fine. In some ways better than stainless:

Thermal conductivity is a measure of how easily heat transfers through you pan. Stainless is actually pretty bad, which is one reason it's important to make stainless pans with very thin material.

Conductivity of 304 stainless is 17 Watts/(meter °C) at about the boiling point of water.

For comparison, carbon steel is 50 Watts/(meter °C), so 1/8" steel will conduct as well as .042" stainless! That's a bit thicker than 18 ga., so almost as good as stainless pans.

Copper is a great thermal conductor, over 20 times better than stainless at 400 Watts/(meter °C). Ever notice how some nice stainless kitchen pans are copper clad on the bottom?

[BryanEx]

Thermal conductivity is a measure of how easily heat transfers through you pan. Stainless is actually pretty bad, which is one reason it's important to make stainless pans with very thin material.

Just out of curiousity... where does Aluminum rank in the watts department?

[BoarsNest]

Oh great, now I'm looking for a sheet of copper to solder to my stainless pan.

[RileySugarbush]

Oh great, now I'm looking for a sheet of copper to solder to my stainless pan.

Hope that was tongue in cheek!


Clarifying the copper clad pans: The copper is bonded to the stainless and more than anything acts to evenly distribute heat across the surface of the pan. It is especially important on electric ranges where there can be hot spots where the element contacts the pan bottom. The copper allows the heat to easily move laterally to even out the heat on the bottom of the pan. Also to spread the heat out wider than the element diameter. Adding anything to an existing pan will reduce heat transfer unless it increases surface area exposed to the heat AND the sap.

So don't go sticking copper to the bottom of your pans! Sorry if I got people all worked up!


BryanX:

Aluminum conductivity is 4 times better than steel at 200W/(M °C) So 12 times better than 304 stainless and about half as good as copper. All of these ratios are with respect to equal thickness for all materials.

[BoarsNest]

Absolutely - tongue in cheek.;) I do metal fabrication and my next project is a flue pan which would be easier and probably more effective.

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

[QUOTE=DrTimPerkins;124303 Heat transfer would probably not be as efficient. Harder to make sanitary welds with the thicker plate. ."[/QUOTE]

I would think steel would be a better transfer of heat than stainless as stainless is one of the worst heat transfers, just sanitary, don't rust and is pretty is why it is used.

[DrTimPerkins]

I would think steel would be a better transfer of heat than stainless as stainless is one of the worst heat transfers, just sanitary, don't rust and is pretty is why it is used.

As a general material, steel is better for heat transfer. That advantage is offset by the fact that it is built much thicker than stainless pans.

[RileySugarbush]

As a matter of interest, I believe that english tin pans are effectively mild steel with a coating of tin. The tin is applied to inhibit rusting and would allow much thinner steel sheet to be used. I don't know how thick english tin pans typically were. Does anyone who switched from english tin to stainless have any comment on the boil rate? Was there a noticeable difference?

[sugarmountain]

We used english tin pans for years on two 5x16 evaporators and later on a 3x8 and i dont think there is any noticable difference in the way they boil. Obviosly most modern rigs are a little more advanced so probably boil better for the guage of the material but all in all no huge change here other than you can clean the stainless more effectivly so a thick coat of niter isnt slowing you down.

[TapME]

in certain applications in solar stainless is used as an insulator because of lack of heat transfer through it. Go figure.
I like the copper pans and would make one but they are frownded upon. Copper is much easier to work with.
I will just keep using my steel pan for finishing and keep the '' I have the best tasting syrup I have had'' comments here. :)

[Rossell's Sugar Camp]

Can you pass state inspection with a mild steel pan

[Brent]

If this customer thinks stainless is expensive now, wait till he want to upgrade or get out of the business. Then he'll find out that expensive can also be spelled "depreciation"

[J Elmhorst]

I received an email from a customer requesting a quote for a pan to be made out of mild steel. I called him to discuss his plans and reminded him that the industry standard for maple products or any food is 300 series stainless and that I would advise against mild steel. He made it clear that it was not because of the cost of ss that he wanted mild steel. He was told by some one who has been making syrup for 25 years that ss and modern evaporators make poor tasting syrup and that they scorch the syrup too easily. He went on to tell me that this experienced gentleman believes in old ways, runs 500 taps, and boils on five oil-drum evaporators with steel pans all at once during the peak of the season. As the conversation progressed he asked me how thick I can make the pans... I told him that the more typical question is how thin I can make them... He wants them a minimum of 1/8" but said thicker would be better. I thought for sure he was messing with me...until he emailed a plan that he had made on auto-CAD.
My main question is this. What SPECIFICALLY is wrong with using mild steel for boiling sap? His mentor just scuffs the rust off the surface of the pans every season and considers it to be clean. I'm not trying to upsell him, just want things to be right.

Jim
14 yrs ago when I built my 32x 96 cooker we had mild steel pan , and man would that thing boil ! then built stainless pan what a disappointment lost over 8 gallons an hour in evaporation and I not knowing any better made it to thick . 16 gauge will not let the heat through 12 yrs later . ordered steel today to build mild steel pan next week . clean with soap and water then rub with mineral oil and keep it oiled!