Float valve questions

[Buckeye mapler]

Bear with me now because my float valve knowledge is limited. I am interested in adding some floats to my homemade pan. I have an idea how the sap feed valve works, but the valve between the sap pan and the syrup pan has me really confused. Is it possible to have a higher level in the syrup pan than the sap pan? How do the float boxes attach to the pan? Does anyone have any pics they could post? I am all ears for anyone who has time. thanks for any help up front.

[Bucket Head]

I welded my floatboxes on. I'm confused with your pan set-up. Your photo's show what looks like one pan. Are there partitions in it making it a two pan-like set-up? With your pan being all one level, you would have only one float box on it controlling the level just like a drop flue rig would have. Both front and rear pans have the same depth of liquid. A raised flue rig has two floatboxes (one for each pan) because the level of sap in the flue pan is higher than the sap/syrup in the front one. There are many photo's on this site showing both style rigs and there are many homemade set-ups(like mine) that you could take a look at.

Steve

[Haynes Forest Products]

Liquid is going to level out and equalize. The only way you can get the syrup level higher than the sap is to pump it up. The law of physics is liquid runs down hill sorry. Now on my 3x10 raised flue with all sorts of pipes and valves and shut off slides still regulates the sap that is higher in the flue pan to the lower level in the finish pans. Now if you want to have more syrup depth in the finish pans then the flue you need to step the pans so the finish pan is lower than the flue pan. Just like 2 lakes at differant elevations with a river or lock system between them.

[Buckeye mapler]

Wow, now I really feel dumb. I definitely understand what you are saying Buckethead. And my pan is going through some changes this year. I am seperating the front pan and adding a new front cross flow syrup pan. They will be level as you see now. So the only float valve I need is for the feed. This I can do.

Haynes, I knew I heard people on here say they keep the sap a little lower, they must have the raised flues like Buckethead said. I really looked at a lot of pics and tried to see what was going on, but they just did not completely answer my question so I thought I would give it a jab.

Thanks for the info both of you. Now I can start building a float box and I am sure it will be "fun". One more question, is there a difference in valves for the feed float than the ones that would go on the syrup pan? The only reason I ask is because it seems the pressure coming from a feed tank would be much greater than from the sap pan to finish would be.

[Bucket Head]

No, usually the valves are the same. Well, at least the ones I've seen are. Its the float that is different for each pan. In your case you would want a sap float, which is slightly bigger than the syrup float, because you would just be regulating sap coming in at the rear pan.

Steve

[Bucket Head]

Ooopps, forgot part two of the question. The difference in pressure between the syrup coming in and sap coming in is different, but not by enough to bother the feed valve. The valves I use come from a plumbing supply and are intended to shut off water that is pressurized by a pump. What p.s.i. does your home water system operate at? Your gravity feed sap line from an overhead tank will never come close to your well pump pressure.

Steve

[Jim Brown]

Buckeye; Just one thing to keep in mind ,the syrup float and the valve it is hooked to must be able to withstand a great deal of heat! The syrup from the back pan will be really HOT when it come to the front pan.Unlike the sap valve were the sap will be cold.

Just a thought
Jim

[Buckeye mapler]

Thanks for the advice JB. I will remember that.

Bucket Head, what is the name of the valve exactly. I looked at Lowes and only found the pressure release valves that go on water heaters. It seems a little hard to open the valve and I was worried the float would not have enough weight???? Did you have to modify the valve you got or did it come like it is in the pics. I can get a real good idea off your pics they are gold. But I want to know what specifically I should ask for at the plumbing store.

[Sugarmaker]

Keith Talbot is also looking for a improved valve system for his rig this year. He is entering the short end of the float box with a 1 inch line about 2 inches below the top of the box. Needs to add a good, reliable, inexpensive, valve and a float that will allow him to set and forget it. I will be watching for recommendations.
Part numbers or pictures would help if you have them.
I will go do a search on here for float valves too. You can P.M. me if you want.

Doing the search on the trader. I did find a thread that leads to the Grainger catalog part number 3P937 which is a 1 inch valve, for $50, then a copper float could be added item #4Kl66 for $13. So this might be a good rugged choice for not as much as a factory system?
Regards,
Chris

[moeh1]

I have Grainger p/n 2x525 bookmarked from another Trader thread on floats, but not sure who contributed that? I think that Watts valve is 3/4"

[Bucket Head]

When it comes to syrupin', forget the big box stores! Yes, Watts sounds familiar too, but the plumbing supply I got mine from know them as Roberts valves. Roberts is usually what the old timers know them as. Mansfield is another manufacturer of similiar style valves if I remember correctly. I have had no trouble with mine and I have the same valve on both the flue and syrup pan, and the flue pan's incoming sap is plenty hot from my preheater. Hot or cold, their pretty reliable. You won't have any trouble with them.

Steve

[Buckeye mapler]

Thanks. I called a couple of plumbing supply stores and was able to find a store that carries a Mueller model of what you have. Going to pick it up tomorrow.
Now as far as sap floats go, how much do they weigh and how big do they measure? The float box only has to be big enough for the float to maneuver I assume. Correct me if I am wrong though. I am imagining these valves letting a small flow of sap and not a big rush because the float is going to gradually open the valve instead of all at once, unless I am drawing off, the level will drop slowly.

Another question requiring a model or trade name is the pipes. What kind of pipe is used to connect the front and back pan and still be easily disconnected? On my old pan, there was a front section but the pan was still one whole piece. We connected with copper pipe and it could not be disassembled without cutting the copper. On this one, I want the option of removing the syrup pan for cleaning purposes.

[Bucket Head]

I could'nt tell you what they weigh. My rear pan float is 11"x4.5x1.5 The front pan float is 8.5"x3.75x1.5 They came from a Leader distributor and are the sizes that a Leader 2x6' rig would have. The Leader catalog lists floats and their sizes. I have seen homemade rigs that had the Roberts valves with threaded brass rod attached to them and on the other end was one of the round copper toilet tank floats. I've also seen pieces of styrofoam insulation board cut to the shape of a float! I do not reccomend you do that.

The float boxes need to be a little oversized to permit free movement and easy installation and removal, but not so big that the float has a lot of room to wobble around.

Steve

[Buckeye mapler]

Great info. I cant wait to start on this. It will take one of the tasks out this season. My multitasksing will be down to feeding wood, watching the sap tank and thermometer, and drawing off. :lol:

[moeh1]

naugatuck makes some oblong stainless floats, they look interesting.
http://naugatuckmfg.com/
I be curious if anyone used something similar

[Bucket Head]

Those are nice looking pieces! I would check those out first. I'm sure their pricey but they would look nicer than the copper toilet float. A little more "professional" looking. And that way you can avoid the inevitable question of, "Is that a new toilet float or is it used.", lol.

Steve

[moeh1]

They sell direct on their website, $35 to 45 for a 4" by6" / 5" by 7". They are avail in 304 or 316ss so I liked the looks of them. I'm lust wondering if that is enough float area in the sap to work well. Buckethead, how much of your float is submerged? I'll have to think about higher math to deal with an oblong cylinder:confused:

[Bucket Head]

Almost all of my floats are submerged. However, that might be because of the 5/16" stainless rod that I used to make the actuator arms. It was free so I used it, but it is heavier material than what is used for those things, but it has worked fine for 4 seasons now. I would reccomend a smaller diameter rod to anyone building a sap feed system for their rig. That would give the float a little more buoyancy.

Steve

[moeh1]

Buckethead's front float has about 48 cu inches of volume, while the rear is about 74 cu in. The total volume in a 4" by 6" cylinder is 75 cu in and a 5 by 7 is 137 cu in (this is cheating a bit because the ends are actually rounded so actual volume would be smaller).
Since you can only get part of the cylinder submerged (dependent on the depth in your float box), Steve is right, important to keep the weight low. Given that these floats can screw directly onto the valve assembly threaded actuator rod I'm inclined to give it a try.

[Buckeye mapler]

That does give me another option since I was going to have to make the float myself anyways. I will have to see what the scrap yard has in ways of stainless metal first. Do they make food grade silver solder? I was thinking about tacking the floats together and then silver soldering the seams.