Spout and tubing questions

[3fires]

First off, this will be my second season making syrup for personal use, family and friends. This past season I ran three 7/16" holes and used 7/16" RO tubing for spouts into 1 gallon ice cream pails which leaked.

This year, having been bit, I want to step it up just a little. :D

I'm planning on using 4 gallon plastic buckets from the bakery with lids to gather sap and was considering using the 5/16" plastic tree saver type spouts and the gray plastic tubing that Bascom sells, but I have a whole bunch o' questions.

Is one brand of spout better than the other? IPL, LaPierre, Leader?

Are the taps durable/ reusable?

What is the benefit/ difference of using 7/16" vs. 5/16" spouts?

I want to go the least expensive route, but also want to do it right and buy good stuff that will function, is better for the trees, and is re-usable year to year.

As far as tubing goes I really don't need 500' of tubing, I'm thinking 100-150' max. Do they sell lesser amounts or is there another store locally where I can get this stuff?

Is this special tubing or can I just get something from the hardware?

I see they sell several types and don't quite understand the difference between them. I like the gray because I will likely be tapping neighborhood trees and don't want bright colors to attract kids or such to.

Man, that's a lot of questions, I hope not too many, but I'd like to get going on this asap so there's no last minute rush. :emb:

If it helps, I'm planning on 20-40 taps this year, but that may change depending on tree availability. I'm hoping for 5-10 gallons of syrup, wishful thinking.

Thanks, and again I hope that's not too many questions.

[red maples]

I'll hit this a little.

1st the 5/16 vs 7/16 spout the difference in the amount of sap is minimal but 5/16 compared to the 7/16 hole is alot easier on the tree and hole closing over happens much quicker because of the smaller hole theree fore less stress to the tree. go 5/16

as far as the spouts they are all comparable I really don't think one is really better than the other. I personally like the leader tree saver spouts very durable they are angled bigger than 90 so when you drill your hole slightly upward the tubing side stays parallel to the tree...but with the new technology the lapierre seasonal spout will keep your tap holes flowing longer. because when you use the same taps year after year they are loaded with microbes that aid in the tree stopping the flow of sap to the hole sort of. the down side for you is you need to buy new ones each year. but if you have 40 taps that's only $10.
go leader tree saver 5/16 or lapierre seasonal 5/16.

as far as the tubing I don't think you can get it by the foot I could be wrong. Don't know of a hardware store alternative that is cheaper. by the time you spend the money in the hardware store it may be cheaper to have a 500' roll shipped!!! for cheaper go to the mapleguys.com they still have the cheapest tubing! last time I looked anyway.

As far as types you can use rigid or semi rigid there is a little variation depending on the company manufacturing it but those are the basic 2. if you just going from tap to bucket it doesn't really matter the rigid is cheaper but with the semi rigid the tube is more flexible. if your going from tree to tree into 1 collection bucket use rigid for the tree to tree or lateral its called and semi-rigid for the drop lines(tap into lateral lines) . If you plan on taking them down each year that is usuing laterals then opt for semi rigid because it rolls up so much easier because of the flexability.

Hope that helps a bit. We were all there once!!! 3 years ago for me!!! this will be my 3rd season make syrup.

[buxtonboiler]

I have some of the same set ups. First, when using the buckets, I find it is better to drill the hole for the tubing on the side of the bucket. this helps keep out rain and stuff. There is supposedly no significant difference between 7/16 and 5/16 as far as production, but is better for the trees because of the smaller hole. Also make sure placement of holes in trees is IAW guidlines, IE 6" side to side, and 12" up or down from old tap holes. As far as tubing, I use the maple stuff. If you have been bitten like most of us on here, 500' will get used eventually. I reuse my taps, just boil them at the end of the season, dry them good and store in ziplocks. Make sure to give them a rinse before use too. Hope this helps, and welcome to the forum.

[Goggleeye]

Year 3 for me, too! Learned a lot last year on the trader.

I would go with a 500' roll of semi-rigid from the maple guys. If you got bit like me, that 500' won't be enough to make it through this season!
I like the BME stainless spouts from Bascom maple. Reusable for a lifetime & won't hold the microbes. If you get these, though, make sure you get the tool to put them in the tree. These worked great for me last year, and I just ordered 200 more.

Buxton, you mentioned drilling a hole in the side of the bucket. I've done it that way, but since I have to transport full buckets, I've found it works better for me just to pull up one part of the lid and slip the tubing in. Depends on the collection situation.

Also, make sure to get some End-line Rings and tees if you are going to run several trees into 1 bucket, and it wouldn't hurt to have a few Y's and connectors.

If you have more Q's, keep asking!

[Haynes Forest Products]

Get the good tubing and yes start with a brand new roll of semi ridged. 500ft wont last you long and its alot easer than moving the trees closer together. Start out with the type of tap you want to keep using. Some of the square bakery buckets tend to crack and break. Some of those type buckets are used for frozen fruit fillings and all it takes is one good bounce off the ground and they micro crack and there goes the sap.:)

[red maples]

Yes, very good point it is very hard to get trees to move closer together!!!:lol:

[whalems]

Where in Michigan are you located? There are several maple suppliers located in our state. and some of them do sell 5/16 tubing by the foot. When I first started running tubing I bought 100 feet from Hideaway sugar bush in Mesick. He dosent up charge for by the foot. so, you dont have to have 400 feet of tubing laying around that you dont need. Hope this helps. Mike

[3fires]

Thanks red maples, the Leaders sound good for what I'm doing this year as I have quite a few other expenses with the arch I'm making. I'll check out mapleguys on the tubing and I beileve all my taps will be tree to bucket unless the city doesn't mind me running laterals down the sidewalk. Hmm?, wheels are turning.

Thanks buxtonboiler and Goggleeye, I'm thinking you're right on the 500'. Thanks for the IAW tip, I knew there was a distance, but had forgot what it was. As far as the buckets go I had planned on putting a tight fitting hole in the center of the lids for the tubing, now I'm not so sure, as I will likely be manhandling them back to the house in the same buckets. I suppose I could keep some extra lids or buckets just for transport?? I like the idea of the SS taps, but that would be too expensive for this season.

Haynes Forest Products, I do have the square 4 gallon bakery buckets, so I will be careful with the cracking, boy that would suck. Oh, and thanks for the tip on tree moving too. :lol: I would have been out there all day otherwise.

I appreciate the tip on the tubing Mike. I'm in SW oakland county and Mesick would be a hike. Do they have a website or phone#? If they would ship that might help, but I do need to order spouts, filter and possibly a couple other things and would like to get it all in one shot to save on shipping.

I appreciate all the help everyone.

[3fires]

I do have another question. I will be running tree to bucket with no tree to tree laterals.

Some of the trees are quite large, offhand I don't recall the correct # taps per tree by size rule, but, which connector would I get to run say 2 or 3 taps from one tree into a single bucket?

Is it possible to run 4 taps on a single tree or would that be overkill, some of these trees are quite large and all appear very healthy.

[whalems]

3fires sugarbush supplies in Mason should not be to far of a drive for you. I think they sell by the foot as well but not positive. They will have everything you could imagine. There website is http://www.sugarbushsupplies.com/ They are one of the largest maple suppliers in this area. They also ship. Paul williams at hideaway sugar bush is a one man show and works another job so contacting and shipping are a little more complicated. His phone # 231-885-2900. dont think he has a web site but carries most fittings and tubing. He is a Leader dealer But his pricing is good. Good luck, Mike

[maple flats]

Generally, for health spouts you can go 1 tap per 10" diameter, up to 3 max. To tap 2 or 3 on the same tree just use T's, the last tap has no T and each one as you move closer to the bucket has a T and a drop up to it's tap hole. So a 2 tap would have 1 T and a 3 tap wolud have 2 T's. You can use the taps and tubing for several years but should use an adapter after the 1st year so the part going into the tree is new.

[3fires]

Cool, thanks Mike for the # and Mason is much closer.

Thanks maple flats on the tap config. I guess I should look forward to getting some adapters next year then.

I take it the adapters are thrown away after use?

I do have one more question regarding the storage containers. I bought two blue 55 gallon drums, advertised as food grade, and according to the seller and the label they contained a certified 100% organic soy product. But, they do have a grainy smell as a bit of grain was left in them after rinsing from the factory.

Can I use these to store sap? and if so what is a good way to clean and hopefully deodorize them? Bleach and baking soda?

[3fires]

I'm just bumping this up hoping someone has an answer

Posted above:

I bought two blue 55 gallon drums, advertised as food grade, and according to the seller and the label they contained a certified 100% organic soy product. But, they do have a grainy smell as a bit of grain was left in them after rinsing from the factory.

Can I use these to store sap? and if so what is a good way to clean and hopefully deodorize them? Bleach and baking soda?

[LawnMowerMan]

;)
I'm just bumping this up hoping someone has an answer

Posted above:

I bought two blue 55 gallon drums, advertised as food grade, and according to the seller and the label they contained a certified 100% organic soy product. But, they do have a grainy smell as a bit of grain was left in them after rinsing from the factory.

Can I use these to store sap? and if so what is a good way to clean and hopefully deodorize them? Bleach and baking soda?

I would buy drum liners, I get them from a restaurant I work for (I am sure you could find them online) I tried last year to get the smell out of a rasberry syrup barrel, I scrubbed 3 times with bleach, and baking soda, then soaked overnight in baking soda, filled it up with about 40 gallons of sap and WOW did that ever smell like rasberry!......I boiled a small batch and it had a nasty bitter rasberry flavor to the syrup..........out onto the yard went all 40 gallons of sap.........not a big deal for a large operation but that was 3 days worth of sap for me. Lesson learned!

[3fires]

LawnMowerMan, I read your post about that here and that's what got me wondering. Thanks!

I can get the liners cheap, but the barrels have 2 small bungs and no lid. I'd rather not cut the tops off as I planned on fitting a spigot to the one bung, they are pre-threaded to fit a male attachment, and filling thru the other letting the barrel sit sideways.

That way I'd never have to move it. Just fill thru the one hole and feed thru the other.

I was hoping someone may have used a grain barrel and if they were able to get the smell out.

[Maplebrook]

which connector would I get to run say 2 or 3 taps from one tree into a single bucket?
Hello again 3fires,
To hook your spiles together, use a tee or y. 18" from each spile to the tee, and 3 ' from the tee to the bucket. For single tap drop lines, I use 4' long lines. This gives lots of length to level up your collection bucket on the ground and to be able to tap around the tree year after year.
Might as well buy the big roll now, it won't go bad and you will always find more trees to tap.

[xyz5150]

3fires,
There is a guy in walled lake who sells food grade open head drums on craigslist. They are much easier to clean and to keep clean. His drums also have two bungs on them.

[firetech]

I live near Perry Mi and welcome to MT. We just aquired 45 55gal drums.They had been stored in a barn and not used for 4-5 yrs very dirty and musty smelling. They are closed head drums with an 8 in hole cut in the side of the drum just under the lid to remove sap thur by dropping in a small pump or a pump with a wand. But in any case we rinsed with hot water (power washer) than a lite bleach rinse. And then a triple rinse air dry. Now ready to use. We also use 5 gal buckets (275)with 2 taps a T and in to the bucket. We drill a hole in the edge of the lid top 5/16th is very tight to the tubing I don't think much water gets in the sap. We only snap down 1/2 of the lid to speed up collection time. Last year my son in law set buckets and tapped to low on the tree and left a sag in the drop lines. Well the sap set there and molded the tubing. I threw away about 30% of my tubing because i could'nt clean it out. PM me for ph# will talk maple anytime

[3fires]

Thanks firetech and everyone else. Man, there's quite a few Michigan folks here, cool!!!

I'm going to wash these drums out and see how it goes. I didn't see anyone in Walled Lake on CL, wish I'd have known that before though. I ended up going to Ecorse rd. to get mine.

I went to Sugarbush supplies co. today in Mason, a tip I got here, btw. They're within an hour's drive. They had everything I needed and fair prices too. Friendly and helpful! I almost didn't want to leave. On a side note: during the drive there I saw endless maples all the way down the road. It's all I could think about, lol.

I picked up a full roll of the semi rigid tubing and 30 tree saver taps. I decided not to go with tees this year due to finances and also having two or three buckets a tree will save me if I can only hit them every other day.

Considering the sq. foot of steam tables I have, on an average run the guy told me I'd be lucky to keep up with 30 or 40 taps. I'll likely only be able to get 3-6 gph and will only be boiling on the weekends and perhaps once during the week. I may just run 20 taps and see how it goes.

I appreciate all the help, this forum is a great resource and everyone seems real friendly.

I didn't even consider it but will I need a special tool to get these taps out when the season's over? Do they break easy?

[shane hickey]

they come out real easy as long as you dont hammer them in very far. Otherwise forget it a runin alot not knowing that shane

[3fires]

From what I gather you just lightly tap them them in with a hammer until it bounces back and then stop. Does that sound about right?

I know you don't want to drive them in too far or you'll split the tree.

[shane hickey]

Tree saver spiles have little barbs at the beginning of the spile you'll want to put it in just till the last barb. Otherwise those spiles are so thin that they wont split the hole that you drilled , but will keep driving in. They wont have a thud sound until it's near a third of the way in. Then that will be to far. I would do a couple of sample holes on an elm tree. It's not rocket science, but it does have a fine line, It takes me about 50 taps to get hang of things with the tree savers. Good luck hope it will be a large crop this year
shane

[buxtonboiler]

Buxton, you mentioned drilling a hole in the side of the bucket. I've done it that way, but since I have to transport full buckets, I've found it works better for me just to pull up one part of the lid and slip the tubing in. Depends on the collection situation.


I transport in seperate buckets on my ice fishing sled, so that wasn't an issue for me. BTW, You can usually get free buckets from bakeries. I prefer the frosting ones, easy to clean, and no smell or after taste.

[3fires]

Thanks Shane and bb for the tips.

I picked up 2 more buckets with lids at the bakery today, I may need 30+ so will have to check with other bakeries in the area as this store doesn't make that many cakes.

I can hardly wait!

[red maples]

Tree saver spiles have little barbs at the beginning of the spile you'll want to put it in just till the last barb. Otherwise those spiles are so thin that they wont split the hole that you drilled , but will keep driving in. They wont have a thud sound until it's near a third of the way in. Then that will be to far. I would do a couple of sample holes on an elm tree. It's not rocket science, but it does have a fine line, It takes me about 50 taps to get hang of things with the tree savers. Good luck hope it will be a large crop this year
shane

I used these last year and they were fine!!! very few splits maybe 2 or 3 or so out of 300 taps!!! and I didn't check each one once I got the thud I moved on.

[NH Maplemaker]

3fires,Go to walmart and buy a cheap carpenters flat bar,(one end straight ,one end with bend ) dremel out grove on bent end to size of shaft on tap that goes into tree.When clean up comes, just slid bar between the tree and spout and out they come! Very cheap home made tool. Jim L.

[3fires]

OK, thanks. I have an old tie rod end puller and was considering using that, lol. I have a few pry bars and such too. I'm sure I have something around here that will work.

[Groves]

pickle fork will work, too.