$165,000.00 for Maple Syrup study

[Haynes Forest Products]

I just saw a trailer on FOX News that the new Tax bill will contain $165,000.00 for studing Maple syrup in Vermont.

[Bucket Head]

Interesting. How much for New York? How much for the other syrup producing states? Why just Vermont?

Steve

[Haynes Forest Products]

I didnt write the newest money grab, ear marks, payoffs to get everyone on board to get the bill passed. It is funny that they say keeping the TAX RATE the same as when Bush was in office will add to the deficite. But then they say we need it to help the economy and then they pile on all this money to get it passed. HELLO

[Grade "A"]

Interesting. How much for New York? How much for the other syrup producing states? Why just Vermont?

Steve

Because our syrup is the best, I'm joking :lol:. I live in Vermont and I think that is crazy. Well like normal 2 or 3 people will make lots of money from this study that is not needed and our tax dollars will pay for it, oh wait, this is a grant? that mean its "free" money.

[Thompson's Tree Farm]

I'm from NY and I seem to have benefitted from several studies on maple that were con ducted in Vt. In fact I benefit almost daily from the expertise of a certain Dr. who is located in Vt and I am sure that at least a portion of his salary (both directly and indirectly) is a result of taxpayer $'s. I don't know what this particular money is for or who may benefit. I won't condemn it or say it is good without further information.

[allgreenmaple]

I just saw a trailer on FOX News that the new Tax bill will contain $165,000.00 for studing Maple syrup in Vermont. I'm all for new studies. But these earmarks need to stop, the politicians are digging our hole even deeper.

[red maples]

Proctor/UV maple is very experienced in maple research. I Like the fact that the maple industry is getting the "grant" money. but attached to a tax bill???? If you want it passed just throw in the extra money. I mean hey we have the best congress money can buy!!!:rolleyes:

[DrTimPerkins]

Hi Folks,

Happy to explain. UVM has requested funds for the Proctor Maple Research Center to conduct research on maple sap processing. Will it help Vermont....sure. Will it help NY...sure, Ohio...yup, NH...absolutely. If you make syrup, it'll likely help you all. We don't keep the information secret, and frequently go to other states and provinces to talk about our work.

This particular work will continue some previous work on how processing with RO affects syrup chemistry and flavor. We are the ONLY group in the world who has done work on this since shortly after RO was introduced. At that time you could concentrate to about 5%. Now, some people concentrate to over 20%. How does that affect syrup chemistry and flavor....nobody really knew until we started looking at it.

What does this grant pay for? Mostly salaries for another scientist (Ph.D.) and for 1.5 technicians. My salary is paid for by UVM (you're getting that for free). It also pays for chemical analysis and for purchase of sap concentrate (we can't generate enough from our operation alone to do the study).

As for the other expenses....the new building we had to build 5 yrs ago to do this work (~$130k)...paid for by UVM mostly (80%) and some gifts from the maple industry (10%). The 4 evaporators and ancillary equipment we had to buy (well over $100k)....paid for by UVM and gifts from Chittenden Co. Maple Sugar Makers Assoc.). Altogether you're getting far more than this grant pays for.

The earmark request is not attached to the tax bill. It is attached to the Omnibus Appropriations Bill, which has not yet passed. That is where funding is set for all government agencies. The money for this earmark comes out of funds the USDA is already allocated....they are just told that out of all the funds they will receive, they should give us a grant for $165k. It isn't costing ANY extra. If we don't get the earmark, the USDA will spend that $165k somewhere else...but you can be sure it won't be for maple.

So....just toss in the money. Who is going to do that? Feel free....send me a check. The maple industry does support our work to some degree, and we do appreciate it. We've been very fortunate. We got one NAMSC grant this year, and one two years ago....they are for about $22-24k, and we need to supply about 50% internal matching funds to receive that. How long do you think that is going to pay the bills? The researchers at UVM PMRC have 40 years of College/University level education and 85 years of work experience. I'm sorry, but that just doesn't come free.

So....why don't we just go out and get competitive grants? Because the maple industry is literally a drop in the bucket of agricultural commodities. Funds are allocated to the big crops...corn, soybeans, wheat, etc.. Those of us who work in specialty crops basically get locked out because we don't have enough "pull" or influence to warrant funding. The USDA says we're a "Forest Product", go get grant $ there. The Forest Service says we're an "Agricultural Product", go get grant $ there. The National Science Foundation says no funding for maple since we're "Applied Agriculture", not "basic research". Finally....there are "Specialty Crop" grants available...but maple wasn't considered a specialty crop until 2 yrs ago (it was on the marketing side, but not the research side), however UVM needs to come up with a 50% non-federal match to receive any funds through that program. The regular USDA grants for the big crops (corn, soybean, wheat, etc.) don't need to come up with even one skinny cent in matching funds. Go figure.

P.S. Should have added that IF this bill is passed and the earmark goes though (uncertain at this point), the USDA will take about 9-10% off the top as "administrative fees." UVM administrative fees (overhead) on this grant....ZERO !

P.P.S. Many agricultural commodity groups have a market order in place that helps to fund marketing and research efforts ("Got Milk"). That is not the case with maple. If you really want to help, consider making a tax-deductible charitable contribution to the North American Maple Syrup Council Maple Research Fund. Of the many THOUSANDS of producers and companies involved in maple, only about 200 donate each year for their "penny per container" to help fund research. If just half of the estimated producers gave only $10 per year, it would DOUBLE the amount of money the NAMSC has available to give out as grants. More information is at: http://www.northamericanmaple.org/index.php/en/namsc-research-fund

[nace]

Dr Prekins: have you ever tried ultrasonic evaporation? i know that the piezo transducers are expensive and it would take many to achieve a high gal/hr rate but it wouldn't burn. just curious....nace

[DrTimPerkins]

Dr Prekins: have you ever tried ultrasonic evaporation? i know that the piezo transducers are expensive and it would take many to achieve a high gal/hr rate but it wouldn't burn. just curious....nace

No, not economically feasible at a large scale.

[red maples]

thanks doc. Its so nice to have someone that can explain this stuff in detail (and so we can understand it;))

[ToadHill]

While many view "earmark" as a dirty word and there are certainly numerouse earmarks that most of us would agree are wastefull spending, there are those earmarks that provide a substantial return on investment and have a significant benefit on our society (or in this case our industry). In the case of maple research it is obvious, given the vast improvements in our industry over the past 20-30 years, that money invested in research is having a dramatic affect in terms of both quality and quantity of product being produced (especially when one considers the amount of work involved per gallon now versus what it was years ago with buckets). This has a significant economic impact on almost all commercial producers and even those that sugar as a hobby (although earmarks to improve a hobby would probably not pass the smell test). Personally, I believe that we shouldn't be so upset with earmarks per se, as we should be with wastefull spending, but even that is a loaded term because what is wastefull to one person may not be to another. Earmarks are also a valuable tool in addressing infrastructure problems, e.g. bridges, highways, dams, sewer, water supply, etc. Especially in cases where the cost is prohibitive to the municipal entity that is responsible for it, but that is a topic for another discussion board. Just my opinion.

Randy

[red maples]

I think part of the problem with earmarks...and your right they are not all bad some are very good the problem is we never hear of them. Its just the main ticket item we hear about. So if your a good reader (which I am not)and can filter through all the political jargon and figure out what the real topics are on a bill thats great, but who really wants to sit down and read through 100, 200,300+ page of what ever. We hear about a Tax bill or what ever. and you say, oh... ok well that is that...but no there could be anything attached to bottom of that thing that has nothing to do with bill itself...thats where the problems lie!!! You may be all in favor of a certain bill but didn't know that they were gonna put aside $5 mil to some organization that wants to test to see if a frog butt is really water tight!!!!

[Brokermike]

I'm pretty well convinced that the government does such a lousy job distributing our money that I'd prefer absolutely no earmarks. I see with my clients, and with my friends that individuals can be very charitable if allowed to keep their own money.

While I happen to like the idea of funding going to Maple Research I can guarantee if we weren't sucked dry by the Federal Government every worthwhile program would still be supported by the people that benefit from it.

It's very simple. Maple producers would support maple programs, art aficionados would support the arts, hot air balloonists would support hot air balloon research. Instead I find myself funding programs that I am so fundamentally opposed to that it makes me sick, all under the guise of some earmark or spending program. It has to end and it has to end across the whole spectrum no more cherry picking what some "elected representative" thinks will get themselves the most votes. The system was not designed to handle this severe manipulation, and it will collapse under its weight. Dr. Perkins was very kind in pointing out that the subsidies/appropriations/grants/earmarks tend to flow in the direction of whomever has the biggest lobby arm. It's simply not sustainable that we allow ourselves to be bribed by our own money at the expense of our children and grandchildren

Earmarks are not designed for, or ever intended for, infrastructure projects. Like all capital expenditures infrastructure was intended to be budgeted for over time. Earmarks are one time appropriations.

[DrTimPerkins]

I think part of the problem with earmarks...and your right they are not all bad some are very good the problem is we never hear of them.

They are listed on the government webpages (most have been posted for 6 months or more), and each sponsor typically lists them on their own webpages as well. $8 Billion is a lot of money, but it is less than 1% of the total federal budget. A good share of that $8 Billion is for military and security-related earmarks, but you don't hear about those.

[OGDENS SUGAR BUSH]

congrats to BROKERMIKE i agree with him 100%

[40to1]

Great job explaining this to the press, Dr. Perkins. And good for Senator Leahy for trying to get the funding.
Senator McCain raised the stink. I think he thought it would be an easy hit. But I don't think McCain's brain and his mouth are on a first-name basis with each other. Everyone might deplore earmarks, but used judiciously, they are a good way to meet local and regional needs in our very large and diverse nation.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/12/16/john-mccain-maple-syrup-research_n_797954.html

[Grade "A"]

I'm not trying to be a jerk, but what happens after you find out if the chemistry and flavor of syrup changes with an RO or not? The only thing I can see it leading to is more laws on labeling syrup or regulations on how you use your RO. Like some milk is "rbst free", some syrup will be "RO free".

[NH Maplemaker]

Bottom line here is that our government has got to stop printing and spending money that we don't have!! Regardless if it taste good or not!! Jim L.

[Rhino]

Also agree with BrokerMike, Weighs heavy on my mind what this great nation of ours will be like for our kids and grandchildren. debt, debt and more debt.

[Haynes Forest Products]

Hey 40-1 If Vermonts Maple industry is worth 200 million dont you think maybe a small tax would cover the $165,000.00 ? Maybe Arianna could help foot the bill.

[DrTimPerkins]

I'm not trying to be a jerk, but what happens after you find out if the chemistry and flavor of syrup changes with an RO or not? The only thing I can see it leading to is more laws on labeling syrup or regulations on how you use your RO. Like some milk is "rbst free", some syrup will be "RO free".

We would not be investigating the question if we hadn't been asked by hundreds of maple producers over several years to do so. The debate of whether "techno-syrup" exists or not has been going on for decades. This should help to settle it. Simply sticking ones head in the sand isn't much of an effective strategy for anything....unless you're aiming to fill your ears with sand.

[Brokermike]

If the maple producers want the answers then they ought to be the ones footing the bill. Just as if the bird watchers want a migration study on Rudy Billed Sandnibblers they ought to pay for it.

I'm not trying to diminish the importance of what is done by fine folks like Dr. Perkins, I'm just saying the system isn't sustainable and taxpayers are subsidizing millions of things they probably would never, ever support if given the choice. We end up subsidizing everything that "constituents" want and we only end up with a league of beurocrats (sp?) with cushy government jobs, gov't health care, and a govt pension overseeing the distribution of all of this financed cash. So the actual grants get 60 cents on the dollar the other 40 cents is wasted on administration and oversight (which often consists of hours of Gov't employee porn watching as evidenced by the SEC fiasco a few months ago). It just can't last

[Acer]

Why does this have to be federal?

If its important for Vermont to study syrup let 'em do it with their own money.

oooh its not that important i guess...... it sure is fun to spend other peoples money though.

[DrTimPerkins]

Working on my first 200 taps on vacuum

Thought I'd respond to your signature line.

Why are you using vacuum? Because it was developed through research that proved that it worked and didn't damage trees.

Why are you using tubing instead of buckets? Because it was proved through research that it worked, and how best it should be set up worked.

Why are you using droplines? Because research showed that they were needed in other to reduce sap reabsorption into the tree.

Why do you (hopefully) have low lead in your syrup? Because research showed how to make syrup without (or with very low) lead.

How do you even compete with corn syrup? Because research developed tests to detect adulteration.

How can you afford to make maple syrup? Because research helped to develop RO and show that it could be used in maple, and because many energy efficiency improvements were made through research. Without these improvements, syrup would cost too much for anyone to buy it.

Why do you manage your stands in a certain way? Because research tells you to.
Why are you using 5/16" taps? Because research showed they yield the same amount of sap, but caused a smaller wound in the tree.

Why didn't acid rain kill your trees? Because research showed that acid rain was causing damage, which led to the Clean Air Act reauthorization of 1990.

I could list THOUSANDS of things that were either developed or proven ONLY because of maple research.

Finally, like I said before....if as you say, if producers believe research is important, which many do....but don't like paying for it through your taxes....why aren't there lots of individual donations coming in? Why aren't there more contributions made to the North American Maple Syrup Council Research Fund (maple industry funded research)? Because it just doesn't seem important until you need it. If the UVM PMRC had not been here even as short a time as the mid-1990s, it is very possible that the health departments in most states would have shut down maple production until the producers could prove that they didn't have lead in their syrup. If we weren't here continuing testing samples of maple syrup for adulteration and contamination....many producers would be out of business because they wouldn't be able to compete with the folks diluting maple with cane or corn syrup and calling it pure and undercutting your prices. I'm sorry if you don't see the value...however I'm sure you and the rest of the maple industry would if we were gone.

[maplwrks]

It's time to be an Asshole----Many VT. county associations donate $$$ to Proctor for maple research. Much of this $$$ is earned at county fairs during the summer selling maple products..etc. Most of this time is DONATED!!! The last I knew, all of the maple producers in the world can tap the research that the good folks at Proctor do. And to the best of my knowledge, there is only 2 research facilities in the maple world. 1 in Canada, 1 in the State of Vt.
Let's not chastize the senators of the state of Vt. for getting some $$$ earmarked for some maple research that ALL of you take advantage of. If this bothers you that much---Form an association, get your *** out and promote maple. Send some of your hard earned $$$ to Proctor and quit your bitchin.

[DrTimPerkins]

It's time to be an Asshole----Many VT. county associations donate $$$ to Proctor for maple research.

That is correct....and we appreciate it very much. Thank you to all those that support maple research....I can tell you that the crowd is fairly small.

The point of this entire thread is now moot. The Omnibus bill has been withdrawn. So what is the result of that development.....as long as we can identify and acquire some replacement funding, there will probably only be one person at PMRC who will need to be laid off within the year. If we cannot get substantial replacement funding, probably two people will have to be laid off by about this time next year. That means the loss of about 18 yrs of college-level education and 15 yrs of maple research experience.

[Thompson's Tree Farm]

Amen Mapleworks! I keep hearing about overpaid gov't workers but not much about private sector executives that "earn" billions each year and god help 'em if they might have to pay tax on it because it is "their" money. They are taking that money out of our pockets as surely as the gov't and, I dare say, aren't offering to assist in any maple research. There is a lot of money wasted in a lot of places. Most of us have more "things" than we need and most of us resent having other people suggest what we should do with our money. I have made my living on a hardscrabble rock farm for 40 years. No health insurance, no retirement program, no new vehicles, no vacations longer than 3 days. I now work a measly 65 to 70 hours a week compared to the years when a I was a bit younger and could do over 90 per week. I have what I have and I have enjoyed my life but at times I don't think it has been "fair". There have been many things that I would like to support in my life but often there is just no cash to do that. Does that mean that those things do not deserve support??? Enough, Don't mean to rant and there are other places for that. Happy maple sugaring:)

[jasonl6]

Hey DR Tim. I was reading in another thread about a penny per container compain. Does this benifit your group at all? I would be willing to start contributing like that for your research. I've learned so much from the topics you have replied to to simply clean free information seems like stealing. Your on this site enough we should pay you for working. I already tithe 10% of my check to the local church but would be willing to give some of my syrup profits to a great group. I'm a small fry so mine alone woudn't add up to much but none the less i'm willing.

jason

[Brokermike]

Dr. Perkins I sincerely appreciate your dedication and research, however, I think I may have misscommunicated my main point. I believe we have come to expect too much from the Federal government. Individuals, corporations, and states have more than enough capacity to fund the research you mentioned above, currently they have diminished capacity to drum up those extra dollars because they are being extorted from us by some of our elected representatives (Though I believe Vermont is temporarily a receiving state). Despite that expanded Federal role, companies still perform R&D, individuals still give to charity, including Maple Organizations, and states still fund research that is important to their state. Imagine the possibilities if we were free to redirect a portion of our tax dollars that go to funding elephant dung bacteria collection (etc), to our pockets, and in turn to your research. The possibilities are endless. Simply put, I don't think I should be funding Orange Grove research in Florida, nor do I think Florida residents should be funding Maple Research in Vermont. If Oranges are important to Florida and Maple to Vermont then each state should act accordingly to support their industries.

It is all about marginal dollars, as a society we have come to expect the Federal Government to provide the benefits that the private sector, states, and individuals used to provide. To add insult to injury the Feds are now borrowing money at an unprecedented rate to meet the obligations that they promised. If we allowed individuals, or states, or counties to retake the reins not only would citizens have more direct control of their representatives, the waste would be reduced considerably, and funding could be much more specific to local needs.

As a proud graduate of UVM, one who benefited from your research then, and who benefits from it now, I make sure to fill out my UVM alumni donation cards every year. I also include a note every year as to where I would like my donation to be used. This year I asked it to go to PMRC. Though I'm a young man I have also included UVM in my will. I can assure you that If I had the ability to eliminate all earmarks, keep some of those extra dollars I'd have much more to give and I'd buy many more of the products that do support your research.

[allgreenmaple]

I believe we have come to expect too much from the Federal government. I believe the research UVM conducts is priceless, & I believe there is not one member here that does not believe that. I certainly don't like too see anyone lose their job, I have been there before, & it isn't a good time. I certainly have concern about the precarious state of the US deficit, & little things do add up, unfortuntely, pain will be felt by all. Obviously, strong feelings about this subject are visible for sure here........

[DrTimPerkins]

Hi Mike,

You express a very nice sentiment, however, in general, most people do not value the research that is being done enough to provide the continued stable funding necessary to maintain a group of people and facilities capable of studying complex problems in a very specialized field like maple. Without stable funding, the facilities and personnel disappear.

The UVM and Cornell maple labs are what remains of what was once several labs, including several federal labs dedicated to maple science. There once were maple syrup related research programs in Michigan (MSU), Pennsylvania (USDA), and Vermont (US Forest Service). We've lost nearly a dozen maple extension specialists in the past 20 yrs, and others are teetering on the brink even now. Both the Cornell effort and the UVM maple research programs are smaller than they once were. The loss of this grant funding will mean that UVM PMRC will drop to about half the staff it has now (from 4 to 2) within the next 1-2 yrs as funding for other projects ceases. That is not sustainable, and it means that we won't be able to travel much to other states/provinces to share our research and knowledge, and we'll get probably half or less the amount of research done.

Moreover, what happens next time a lead scare (or something else) comes around and we're not here to provide the information necessary to satisfy the federal and state regulators and allow the industry to solve the problem? You truly would not BELIEVE the things we've done that headed off serious problems for this industry in terms of adulteration and contamination. Most of the time nobody ever hears anything about these things (you wouldn't want them to).

As for regular research grant avenues. It takes about 2-3 yrs to build a program to the point where it generates enough preliminary data in a certain area to apply. Federal funding priorities vary from year to year. Then it takes about 2 yrs to get the funding lined up (applications are requested once each year, so if you're unsuccessful you get to wait another year to try again). Maple competes with all other agricultural commodities for the same limited pot of grant $, including corn, wheat, soybeans, etc. So basically the granting agencies look at maple and say...they're not important enough in the overall scheme of things because maple production is only regional. Or they say...well, this is forestry research, we fund crop research...you should apply through the Forest Service. But the Forest Service says, that is agriculture, you should apply through the crop programs. So....how about we try for the "Specialty Crop" program. First off, maple wasn't even included in the SC program until 2 yrs ago (it was for marketing, but not for research). So now we can try that avenue, however...applying for a SC grant requires a 1:1 match in NON-FEDERAL $, which need to be lined up BEFORE you can even apply. For the regular USDA grants (which typically go to corn, wheat, soybeans), there is NO match requirement. None....ZERO. So, in order for us just to apply we need to get the maple industry to cough up $80,000 2 yrs ahead of time before we could even start the project IF it gets funded. The maximum grant through the NAMSC research fund is $25k, and we need to come up with a 1:1 match even to apply for that. Not really workable. States fund surprisingly little research. When they do, it is because the Feds handed them a pot of $ to do it with.

So what are we left with in terms of research $ for maple:
- maple company funded R&D (great if you happen to be in Canada)
- maple industry funded research (limited funds available, max $25k, with 1:1 match)
- maple association donations (appreciated, but not enough)
- private individual/company donations (appreciated, but not enough)
- Private foundation research (not since the stock market took a dive)
- State funded research (nope)
- Federal funded competitive research (great if you're corn, soybeans or wheat)
- Federal non-competitive research = earmarks (just went goodbye)

Altogether, there are far easier pots of grant $ for a research scientist to go after than those to study maple. Maybe we'll try for something to do with global change.

All of you have a nice weekend...I'm going home to have a drink.

[axe]

Let's not be so myopic. If we are going to get ourselves out of this mess, we are all going to have to work at it. The thing that got us into this predicament is not just federal bureaucrats, greedy investors or overpaid corporate VIPs but everyone who said me, me, me when we should have been saying us, Us, U.S. You can not point fingers and work on the problem at the same time. It is vey true that we have to stop spending money we do not have and pay the bills up front. All of the political parties are guilty of causing the problems.

Businesses want to eliminate their taxes and all regulation of any kind so they can do whatever they want and not have to be responsible, but they do not want to self regulate either to prevent abuse. Without regulation a few people will take advantage of the situation and cheat and defraud the rest of us while encouraging the more honest to also misbehave or be forced go out of business.

Federal money (our money, directed by people we appointed to do an important and thankless task) does a lot of things to stimulate the US economy and look after the welfare of the people. That is the real job of any government. We do not pay the very large tax rate that is assessed in other industrialized countries nor do we get their amount of govenment and interferance in our personal lives.

We should elect people who are willing and able to climb to the high ground and look out over the entire landscape to point us in the best direction they can find. Too often we find ourselves supporting someone because of party affiliation, a single issue or some other narrow philosophy. This can make elected and appointed officials blind to the big picture.

Federaly funding research into Maple products in Vermont does not just benefit Vermont or just the Maple industry. It has the potental to apply to many States, Provences (and even other countries), forestry (lumber, paper, packaging), water purification, food production and processing, pharmecuticals, etc. The more basic the research, the more widespread the applications. If a private company is the only one who does this research, then that private company alone is the one who will benefit. Unlike the feds, private companies are not as likely to share with the rest of us.

William Proxmire railed against a lot of federally funded projects that seemed ridiculous on the surface but may have had far reaching effects. He never complained about a project that directly benefited his home state no matter how useless it really was. All of the "Junior Proxmires" here need to get the sand out of their ears (as Dr. Tim suggests) and look deeper onto the possibilities of what the long term effects will likely be for any government funded project.

Someone here said that the birders should be the only ones who fund a study about the migratory patern of a particular rare bird. This is a simplistic view. It turns out that the study gave us a lot of information on that bird that no one expected. We now know how the species uses the magnetic fields of the earth to navigate the 10,000 mile route from Upper Fredonia to Lower Slobovia. This taught us a lot about navigation air currents and weather paterns. We know how air routes should be modified seasonaly in both direction and altitude and prevent 5.8 small plane crashes per year and save the lives of 3.2 people on the ground and 16.4 pilots and passengers. We know how avian flu in Fredonia could be carried to Slobovia and where it might also be spread along the route. We know what this bird eats at both endpoints and along the way. Without the birds eating those bug and larve, farmers across the continent would loose hundreds of acres of vital crops each year. The farmers can now save a lot of money and time on buying and applying pesticides because we know those birds showing up at just the right time. They can attract more birds to their fields with cheap scent lures and a few roosting sites, thus improving natural insect abatement and reducing water polution and the need for extra water quality tests and procedures. The project also suggested information about related species of birds and told researchers what to look for.

The only question now is to whom should the birdwatchers send the bill for all of the good made possible by the study? It benefited all of us in some small way and a few of us directly in a much larger way. Perhaps they should just keep quiet and not save lives, help the farmers, reduce costs, prevent sickness, etc.

Axe

[Grade "A"]

We would not be investigating the question if we hadn't been asked by hundreds of maple producers over several years to do so. The debate of whether "techno-syrup" exists or not has been going on for decades. This should help to settle it. Simply sticking ones head in the sand isn't much of an effective strategy for anything....unless you're aiming to fill your ears with sand.

I hope you don't feel that I'm discrediting the research you have done in the past. My concerns are with this study. I was not aware there was hundreds of producers asking for this info and I couldn't see what the results were going to lead to in the future. And as far as the head in the sand comment, I am smart enough that when I stick my head in the sand I plug my ears.

[OGDENS SUGAR BUSH]

some ears do get filled with sand and some pockets get filled with money

[spud]

Yes it is true that much of our tax dollars are wasted away on nonsense. Over the years i have found that the people that do the most complaining are the people that have the most debt. The government did not put you into debt. Your foolish spending habits put you into debt. Without Maple Research where would we be today? I am so thankful that we have Dr. Tim that is willing to answer our questions. The maple industry should be giving a lot more money for research then it gets. The people that pay 95% of all tax dollars are those making over $200,000 a year. That means most of us should not complain. I have friends that are flat broke and can't pay their bills. But if you go to their oversized home (that they don't need) what you will find is (snow machines-4 wheelers-boat-camper-two or three cars-and a shop full of tools they have no idea how to use. So to all you who like to complain. Maybe you should take a good look at your poor spending habit's before you complain about the governments spending. So during this Christmas season let's all be thankful we live in this great country. Let's remember our troops who are fighting for our freedom so we can tap our maple trees. And the most important thing to remember is (Jesus is the reason for the Christmas season). Merry CHRISTMAS everyone.

Mike

[Haynes Forest Products]

SPUD Nice job on setting up a straw man and then working from there. So what I hear is if you have some debt you have given up the right to DEBATE, EXPRESS DISPLESURE, HAVE OPEN DISCUSSION, GIVE AN OPINION, HAVE A DIFFERANT PERSPECTIVE about a subject that is of great concern to many. You mentioned JESUS did he ever mention something about judging your neighbor. The day I cant openly critsize the Government and their policies without ridicule:mad:

I dont think anyone on here is being critical of all the great work Dr Perkins and others has done and will do. Its not us against anyone its an open discussion about a tax bill and money we dont have being added to a simple bill to extend the present tax rate. THATS IT nothing more. Im sure the Rum industry is also talking about how they need the money also........REALLY are they in trouble.

[markcasper]

A Trader for a year, but only 1 post?? Hmmmmmm..........

[spud]

Of corse you have a right to discuss your concerns. I hope all is well for you and your family. I was trying to make a very general point on why many people are in such debt. Jesus did say (do not judge other's by their mere appearance but make a fare and accurate judgement). So yes people need to be judged. If we did not judge there would be no jail:rolleyes: I do have more than one post and i try to keep them to the point. A wise man once said (those who talk much no little). That is why i only have 18 post. May you and your family have a wonderful Christmas. I wish you and everyone the best in the 2011 sugaring season.

Mike

[Grade "A"]

Yes it is true that much of our tax dollars are wasted away on nonsense. Over the years i have found that the people that do the most complaining are the people that have the most debt. The government did not put you into debt. Your foolish spending habits put you into debt. Without Maple Research where would we be today? I am so thankful that we have Dr. Tim that is willing to answer our questions. The maple industry should be giving a lot more money for research then it gets. The people that pay 95% of all tax dollars are those making over $200,000 a year. That means most of us should not complain. I have friends that are flat broke and can't pay their bills. But if you go to their oversized home (that they don't need) what you will find is (snow machines-4 wheelers-boat-camper-two or three cars-and a shop full of tools they have no idea how to use. So to all you who like to complain. Maybe you should take a good look at your poor spending habit's before you complain about the governments spending. So during this Christmas season let's all be thankful we live in this great country. Let's remember our troops who are fighting for our freedom so we can tap our maple trees. And the most important thing to remember is (Jesus is the reason for the Christmas season). Merry CHRISTMAS everyone.

Mike

Well, I was one of the people complaining. I love how you classify all of us as in debt, living in oversized houses. I also love the "Your foolish spending habits put you into debt." comment, I didn't know that you knew me so well. We I am in debt, as the bank owns my house (you must of paid cash). Everything else I have is paid for. My wife, 2 kids, and I live in a condo that is 1100 sq. ft., maybe that is "oversized" but I didn't think so. My biggest debt is the $1,100 a month for health insurance witch I rather pay then having the goverment take it over. I do have a snow machine, its a 73 and was giving to me. I work 45-50 hours a week after that I spend time plowing snow (on the side to make some extra), training and resonding to call at our volunteer fire department, and the rest of the time is spent with my family. So I think the picture you painted in your head about me is wrong, because you realy don't know alot about me or my life style.

As far as "So during this Christmas season let's all be thankful we live in this great country. Let's remember our troops who are fighting for our freedom so we can tap our maple trees. And the most important thing to remember is (Jesus is the reason for the Christmas season). Merry CHRISTMAS everyone." you couldn't be more right. Merry Christmas.

[markcasper]

Isn't it amazing the number of threads and topics that revolve around money and debt. It has not been until recently that it has been brought up in great proportions on this site. The fact is, the whole money system in this country is flawed. Its called fractional reserve banking and this is why our country is in trouble. For every dollar a bank has as its assets, they lend out 10-40 times that amount, in some cases even more. You and I are on the hook for the interest that the 10-40 times generates. Its a classic ponzi scheme designed to fail. Its the debt money system.

There are numerous places to find this info out. Many of the checks and balances that were in place to prevent reckless lending were either removed or minimized, such as the glass-steagull act. This courtesy of big banks and mega corporations. So the funding gets cut for research and education and we pay the money to the big banks. Services get cut, but we end up paying more for less.

[Grade "A"]

I'm just hoping to give my kids a fighting chance to make it in their future and not be in debt from the start because of the goverment's foolish spending habits.

[Dennis H.]

I am hoping that the money will be there for research.

I guess my biggest thing is that they will give money, Millions and Millions, to large institues to design and maybe not even build a space craft that will travel for years to a distance body in deep space that will not have any benefits so ever to the citizens of this great country but they have to debate and ponder if they should give just $165,000 for research for an industry that effects alot of small and large maple producers and may end up helping cutting fuel costs/gal produced.

[Grade "A"]

I am hoping that the money will be there for research.

I guess my biggest thing is that they will give money, Millions and Millions, to large institues to design and maybe not even build a space craft that will travel for years to a distance body in deep space that will not have any benefits so ever to the citizens of this great country but they have to debate and ponder if they should give just $165,000 for research for an industry that effects alot of small and large maple producers and may end up helping cutting fuel costs/gal produced.

You are right money is getting thrown at around like some space programs. I also beleive that the research that Dr. Perkins does is a great benefit for us all, I used the new spouts last year with great results. It is scary times out there with whats going on with the economy, and in my mind I couldn't see the benefit of this study (not saying there isn't one). So I was quick to express my concerns and after this tread got started it snowballed out of control.

[OGDENS SUGAR BUSH]

GRADE A this thread is not out of control. spending is out of control

[mountainvan]

who wee. spending money on techno syrup when my parents can't afford health care and are dieing at home. total bs.

[Dennis H.]

Now Now don't get started with Health Care Stuff!:mad:

[Tweegs]

Dr. Tim,
If you’ll send me the pertinent information, I’ll send a check. Being tax deductable, it’s one way I can guarantee at least some of my tax dollars are being spent where I want them.

My wife and I started producing syrup about 3 years ago. In that time, we’ve been to 3 conferences, 2 fall tours, and we are on the volunteer staff hosting the national conference here in Frankenmuth, MI next October.

In all that we have done, not once has it been mentioned that there was research of this magnitude being conducted in maple, and that it was in need of funding. If we didn’t know this, it’s a good bet there are many other producers that don’t either.

The Michigan conference is next month, a national’s meeting is going to dovetail with it. I’ll make a couple of phone calls and see if I can get some information posted during the Michigan conference, it may require a promo piece from you, but that is just a guess, and a bit premature at this point, let me see what I can find out. Not being part of the Michigan conference represents a hurdle, but I have a contact that can probably help.

I’m no hot-shot at the national meeting either, probably just going to be some lackey setting up tables and hanging coats, but I’ll do what I can to get the information out.

[jasonl6]

I'm with tweegs. Until I found this site i never heard of any maple research. Allot of the things I did were wrong and i had no idea how wrong until i found this site. I'm willing to make the info known and contribute to the research thats supporting my hobbie.

As for health care and finances. DON"T PLAN ON THE GOVERMENT they will let you down. Your retirement is your responsibility not mine, my children or anyone elses. I'm 30 and have no debt except a >10K morgate which will be paid off next year w/ several thousand in a roth ira. If you need a fiscally responsible plan for retirement see Dave Ramsey's site (http://www.daveramsey.com/home/). Unless you decided to take the bull by the horns your gonna get it in the back side.

Jason

[axe]

Why is it that whenever the subject comes around to wasteful government spending that someone attacks the space program? I guess that it is just easy to take pot shots at NASA or as they say today "Low hanging fruit". The space program has made a lot of improvements to our daily lives that many of us do not see, remember or understand.

The two govenment branches that have resulted in the greatest technological advances are the military and NASA. The military, which I agree we need to have, has a record of returning about $1 in development for every $7 invested while NASA is the exact opposite, $7 in development for every $1 invested. The space program has been an important part of our economic development. A lot of mititary development have been paid for out of the NASA budget too.

The most obvious examples are in weather prediction and communications. Before weather satelites all predictions were based on ground observations. A poor substitute for being able to see weather systems (huricanes, cold fronts, heat waves, tornados) moving in world wide paterns. I don't know about you but I like to have a better idea as to when to tap and when the season is likely to end. Thanks to communications satelites we can now watch events (sports, news, etc.) in real time anywhere in the world. It has also been useful for GPS applications (search and rescue, surveying our sugarbush, finding our way over the river and through the woods to grandmother's house, etc.)

Not so easy to see are other programs like The Mission to Planet Earth": the global surveying that assesses crop growth paterns, mineral resources, geologic formations, etc. Materials development has been another big step that can lead to better fire bricks, lighter, stronger and more fuel efficient vehicles (including cars, tractors, trucks, airplanes, etc.), better tools; better clothing (moisture resistant Gortex, fire resistant Nomex, bullet resistant Kevlar), better electronics (including your computer, cell phone, TV, radio...); etc. etc.

As for direct applications from missions to other planets. It is difficult to understand our planet if you only look at our planet. Looking at the other planets and hundreds of moons in our solar system gives some comparison and contrast for better understanding the complex systems we live with.

There is a lot more that I could say but this is getting too long.

Axe

[Thad Blaisdell]

who wee. spending money on techno syrup when my parents can't afford health care and are dieing at home. total bs.

If you throw $165,000 at health care what would you get? When asprin are $500 per at the hospital. When you throw that much at an organization that is not used to a lot of money you get twice as much in return. Lets say they do a little research and come up with something like oh say.... a spout that has a little ball valve doohickickie thingie and that helps producers make more syrup.... just saying.... and all the producers now make a larger profit margin, who is smiling at the end.... uncle sam that is who. He gets a cut called taxes.

[DrTimPerkins]

The two govenment branches that have resulted in the greatest technological advances are the military and NASA.

That may be true (I'm not certain it is), however at what cost did we achieve those advances?

Please understand that I am a strong supporter of the military and of NASA, however to put the $165k grant in a bit more context....of the $1.2 TRILLION dollar Omnibus budget that was just proposed, about 57% of it was going to the military or military related expenditures. Nearly half of the proposed $8 BILLION in earmarks were military-related, including VA hospitals, equipment for troops, and R&D. One fewer "smart" bombs, or an hour or two less jet time would have paid for our $165k grant with some serious change left to spare. The Iraq war has cost $2-3 BILLION per WEEK since 2003. Or perhaps they could take the $450 MILLION they're going to spend developing the 2nd (spare) engine for the F-35 (the military doesn't even want a spare engine for the F-35) and give ALL the specialty crops full funding for the next 10 yrs.

Most of the breakthrough developments NASA made were in the 1960s. The least-funded portion of NASA is the earth observation section, which has the biggest impact on our lives (it apparently just isn't "sexy" enough). Manned space travel has been kind of a boondoggle since the Apollo missions. Unmanned vehicles can do far more than a man, at less than 1/10th the cost. The International Space Station (paid for mostly by the U.S.) has cost about $150 BILLION so far (a good deal of that paid to our international "partners", Russia, Japan and the European Union), and the ISS is slated to be dumped in the ocean between 2015-2020. Very little science that could not be done on earth or by unmanned vehicles happens there. Interplanetary travel is not feasible for even the closest planets (Mars) without spending more than the U.S. GNP to do it. It would take a 2-3+ yr trip to get astronauts to Mars and back if we could afford it. Intersteller travel, without unfathomable breakthroughs in technology is just not possible. Even at light speed (unreachable at present time), it would take hundreds of years to get to the closest stars. Travel at faster than light speed is only possible in the realm of science fiction.

[Thad Blaisdell]

Travel at faster than light speed is only possible in the realm of science fiction.

We need more power Scottie.........

James T Kirk

[Jim Brown]

Beam us up Scotty -there is no intelligent life down here!

[axe]

Relax Dr. Tim, I am on your side. I want you to get some research money. Someone attack NASA and I could not allow that.

I have personally benefitted from Maple Research. Between my neighbors and myself we have over 100 Super Sweet Sugar Maple Trees, developed at OSU, on our properties.

I was just pointing out how the Space and Aeronautical Programs have benefitted us dirtsiders in general, agriculture and specifically the Maple Industry.


Axe

Aye c'n nay gie ye no more Captain. I've gi'en ye all she's got.
Lt. Cdr. Scott

If he tells me to beam him aboard one more time, I'll synthesize an oak plank for him.
Lt. Scott

If he wants to go any faster, he c'n get out and push.
Ens. Scott

He wants more speed, he should dump that o'er size ego and attitude overboard and loose some of that lard from 'tween his ears.
Crewman 3rd Class Scott

He wants me to save him from the Romulans? A fat lot I c'n do from the brig.
Prisioner Scott

[Dennis H.]

My whole point on the space travel thing is that I do not understand how hard it is to give just $165K to a whole industry while they are giving Millions for just one project in another industry.

I have always been a fan of NASA and the things that they have done over the years. But you have to remember that alot of the space probes are not run only by NASA, there are run and paid for from colleges and instutues that they get the money from GOV't grants.


I sure hope we get the $165K. So far I am impressed with the tech that has been addded in just the 3 years that I have been making syrup.

[DrTimPerkins]

Someone attack NASA and I could not allow that.

I love NASA too, and know several people who work there (the backstage tour at the Kennedy Space Center is absolutely amazing), however I do think they've lost some of their "right stuff" over the past 30 yrs, and need to realign their priorities. Human space travel takes the bulk of the $ and results in the least advances. Earth observation science and robotic exploration give us far more bang for the buck and yield far more benefits for humankind, but generally lowballed in funding and attention.

[DrTimPerkins]

I sure hope we get the $165K.

Extremely slim chance that will happen, but thanks for the sentiment.

Thank you as well to all those who've written here and privately asking how to help. We are in the midst of devising a plan on how the University of Vermont College of Agriculture & Life Sciences will react in the short and long-term. Once I get more information, I may be able to answer your questions better.