Leader check valves

[Thiems sugarshack]

Any one have the new check valves last year? Did you get more sap and notice the taps lasting longer(not drying up as fast) Where you using vaccum or gravity just curious as I am going to use them this year on gravity

Thanks Jaret:confused:

[sugarmountain]

They wont work with a gravity system. Vac is required to release the ball inside the device thus allowing sap to flow one way only.:(

[collinsmapleman2012]

i used them at our school, and they worked great. we have vaccum but i went to start it a few days and sap was just gushing out. pulled them late at the end of the season, maybe mid april, and sap was still flowing, and clear too!

[collinsmapleman2012]

They wont work with a gravity system. Vac is required to release the ball inside the device thus allowing sap to flow one way only.:(

the claim is that they will work with both systems. the natural vaccum on the trees is supposedly enough to pull the ball back, as the sap would too. i had the same thought as you, but i talked to a leader rep and he explained it to me.

[sugarmountain]

I stand corrected. Leader says they will indeed work on a gravity system and research at Cornell showd "substantial bennifits" to support this! We learn somthing new every day.

[Randy Brutkoski]

I have them, but if i was on gravity I would not use them. I just dont think you would get the sap flow compared to a normal spout.

[Randy Brutkoski]

On gravity would you use a check valve For .35 cents or a clear straight through for .15 cents. Especaily when you have to throw them away at the end of the season.

[Thiems sugarshack]

I was under the impression that you could reuse them for one and two can you use just the stubby spout in the tree?

[DrTimPerkins]

I was under the impression that you could reuse them for one and two can you use just the stubby spout in the tree?

The CV spout was designed for use with vacuum systems, and that is the only way we (UVM PMRC) have tested them. However, Steve Childs, Cornell Maple Program, has evaluated them with gravity tubing and found significant increases in yield....just not as large as the yield increases under vacuum. Steve also tried using CV spouts for more than one year and found that there was a reduction in yield the second season, and that the economic benefit gained from using a new CV spout far outweighed the cost.

For best results, any type of plastic spouts should be changed each year. This will yield you approximately 10-15% more sap.

No, you shouldn't use just a stubby spout alone. If you're not going to replace your spouts annually, you should just use a regular spout.

[Thiems sugarshack]

Thanks for the info I still need to bye some of the soule cast aluminum taps.Last year i tried sandblasting the rolled taps that came with my setup but i noticed that some of the sap was blue/purple when i went to empty the buckets due to oxidation.Had to dump the sap which made a bad year worse.

[tecumseh]

the study at cornell showed a substantial increase in sap with the antimicrobial spiles with gravity and vacuum. they are coming out with an adapter to fit stubbies very soon. my own experience with the antimicrobial on gravity was good, considering the poor weather this year.

[Thiems sugarshack]

So would it be better for me not to use the check valve on gravity ?And do the atimicrobial taps extend the tap as long as the checkvalves or not?

[DrTimPerkins]

So would it be better for me not to use the check valve on gravity ?And do the atimicrobial taps extend the tap as long as the checkvalves or not?

The Cornell study indicated that there was a substantial increase in sap yield using either CV spouts or antimicrobial spouts on gravity. Not surprising given that they attempt to do similar things.

CV spout = $0.35
Antimicrobial spout = $0.98

Both are good for 1 season.

[tecumseh]

we put a used antimicrobial in nutrient agar and it did not show any bacteria growth after 48 hrs, while a used plastic spout grew lots of critters. I think the antimicrobial will last a couple years. they only came out last year, so saying they only last a year is based on hard science? A couple years testing should tell the truth. antimicrobial stubby adaptor will be 40 cents or so according to bascoms.

[DrTimPerkins]

we put a used antimicrobial in nutrient agar and it did not show any bacteria growth after 48 hrs, while a used plastic spout grew lots of critters. I think the antimicrobial will last a couple years. they only came out last year, so saying they only last a year is based on hard science? A couple years testing should tell the truth. antimicrobial stubby adaptor will be 40 cents or so according to bascoms.

We were experimenting with this for a couple of years before the product was introduced. Antimicrobial (AM) fittings and tubing have been available for at least a decade for scientific applications. http://www.eldonjames.com/html/AGFittings.html We thought about patenting it for maple use ourselves, but decided against it when we determined that the effect was not long-lasting enough, the technology was cost-prohibitive, and that to truly market the thing we'd need to apply for an EPA pesticide permit.

Yes, AM fittings can reduce microbial growth...no argument there. Agar is not the same thing as sap though, and 48 hrs is not the same as an entire season (or two) of exposure. In addition, if you put the used fitting in Agar, it was the outside UNUSED section that was exposed, not the interior where sap had run through. The fitting may well have still had good AM properties on the outside, but not on the inside where it is in contact with sap. We've done 3 yrs worth or research on these in maple sap collection systems (at least 2 yrs more than the manufacturer to my knowledge) and have published a paper detailing our work. http://www.uvm.edu/~pmrc/antimicrobial.pdf We found that the AM properties of the INSIDE of the fitting (the part in contact with sap) diminished significantly in its AM properties as the nano-silver ion exchange sites became exhausted due to the high microbial levels in sap (very different than water). How much harder science do you want?


I think the antimicrobial will last a couple years.

This belief is based specifically upon what evidence? When this first came out, it was selling for something like $1.75 each and the manufacturer claimed the antimicrobial effect was good for the lifetime of the spout. Now they're $0.98 and they're working on a spout adapter that'll sell for $0.40. So why is that? So they can be changed each year? So which is it....will these things last a lifetime (as they originally said), a couple of years (as you suggest), or one year (as the change to an adapter suggests)? Would be nice to see the "hard science" supporting any of these claims.


A couple years testing should tell the truth.

I totally agree, however I've still not seen ANY research done by the manufacturer....hard or soft or anything in between...yet they still put them on the market. The only research done so far has been by UVM PMRC and by Cornell. We've done several years (but aren't doing any more), and Cornell has (so far) done 1 yr.

The only thing we didn't do that I still think needs to be done is a detailed study of how much of the antimicrobial silver ends up in the syrup. With water it isn't an issue....but sap isn't the same as water (or agar).

[powerdub]

Every study out there has proven new spouts out perform even 1 year old cleaned, steralized, washed, treated or whatever spouts. There is not one of us who has been in a sugarbush on a gravity system that has not seen the sap flow backwards in the pipeline. Given the evidence does it not make good sence, even on gravity systems to try these things? Maybe not this year or the next but they will perfect them and when they do look out. We all stand to gain. This coming from one of the biggest doubters of them all!

[tecumseh]

dr cv spout.thanks for helping my kid get an A+ on his school project. nothing to do with maple. the project was a human reaction study. your previous postings showed you had a tendency to defend the cv spout to defeat the antimicrobial spout. by doing the experiment, which they did, and posting positive results for the antimicrobial spout they hoped you would defend/defeat! you did! thanks again. how do you cut and paste so well? they thought you were a good salesman too.

[Grade "A"]

dr cv spout.thanks for helping my kid get an A+ on his school project. nothing to do with maple. the project was a human reaction study. your previous postings showed you had a tendency to defend the cv spout to defeat the antimicrobial spout. by doing the experiment, which they did, and posting positive results for the antimicrobial spout they hoped you would defend/defeat! you did! thanks again. how do you cut and paste so well? they thought you were a good salesman too.

Your kid should do a project on the human reaction to the $165,000 grant for maple research post.:lol:

[Thad Blaisdell]

My simple thoughts are thus: The sugaring season lasts 365 days. Roughly 320 days of spending money and getting ready for 45 days of very hard work. During the 45 days I make MONEY. I have to determine what products I think are worth spending my money on to help me do Two things. 1) make me more money. 2) Save me time. Now I have listened and talked to a lot of people, some for and some against. It is time to make up your own minds on what you are going to do. Personally I am putting in 2500 cv's this year. If I like them, they will all be cv's next year. Too many people made way more sap last year using them. Time to jump on board.

[DrTimPerkins]

dr cv spout.thanks for helping my kid get an A+ on his school project. nothing to do with maple. the project was a human reaction study. .

You're quite welcome. Happy to help students. They (you) do need how to learn how to design a proper experiment however. The one you described didn't answer any relevant question.

Realistically, your posting was more of ...ask the same question, get the same answer. Not sure why you would expect a different answer. Nothing has changed in that story that I know of. As soon as the manufacturer of the AM spout or others provide "hard science"(to use your term), then I'll be happy to consider it. Barring that, I'll go with what I learned in our 3 seasons of research rather than your 48 hr experiment of the OUTSIDE of the spout in agar. Your simply saying that you "believe" the AM spout will work more than one year in light of evidence to the contrary is nonsensical.

Perhaps you'd like to tell us who "tecumseh" actually is...rather than hiding behind a screen name where it is easy to say whatever you like. I'll note that I answered all of your questions....but so far you've not answered any of mine.

[spud]

We all agree that we all love maple sugaring. After reading the Research on the CV spouts i can't help to wonder why all with high vac are not making the switch? If making the most syrup possible is your goal then why not go with CVs? Research at PMRF is based on Facts. In seven years PMRF has made anywhere from .52-.71 gallons of syrup per tap. If your looking to make the most out of your woods then read the FREE RESEARCH and follow it. Just a thought.:)

Mike

[DrTimPerkins]

In seven years PMRF has made anywhere from .52-.71 gallons of syrup per tap.

That is correct, although I should note that we have only had CV adapters in our production woods for the past 2 years (although we've been doing research and development on them for 3+ yrs). In each of those 2 years, we only had CV adapters on 1/4 of our bush. We needed to have "control" sections to compare them to. Had we had CV throughout our woods, it is likely that yields would have been considerably higher. This year we'll have CV in about 3/4 of our woods, and only keep 1/4 with non-CV as a "control". We're shooting to break 0.75 gal syrup/tap in all the sections with CV adapters this coming season.

[tecumseh]

not here to answer anyones questions. any experiment by a 10 year old is good.my kid knows enough not to get drawn into a discussion with someone who cuts and pastes part of a statement so they can spin it around to make themselves look smarter. me not so much. great invention, but the sales pitch is a bit heavy. wonderful thing about the net is you can speak your mind and only worry about cyberbullying, school had a special on that. I am actually a 18 yr old Japanese coed looking for a good time, or Jullian Assange.

[DrTimPerkins]

not here to answer anyones questions.

Well that tells me all I need to know.

[markcasper]

Dr. Perkins,

I do not believe anyone has ever asked the question and is a bit off topic here. Are you aware of any study of BPA, bisphenol A in plastic sap tubing and fittings? Given the recent controversy of the substance in plastic and metal food containers, what is your take?

[DrTimPerkins]

Are you aware of any study of BPA, bisphenol A in plastic sap tubing and fittings?

We have done a complete analysis of plastics and related compounds in maple syrup. Although some things are detectible, they are not found in levels of concern. To my recollection, BPA was not found in sap or syrup exposed to tubing (usually different varieties of polyethylene) or fittings (typically nylon or polystyrene).

[tuckermtn]

A friend of mine has a t-shirt that says something like:

"I eat butter- because I trust a cow more than a chemist"-

for the CV vs. bac-zapper argument I think my shirt would read:

"I use check valves because I trust a plumber more than I trust a chemist"

this is in no way aimed at disputing the facts behind each product- but my sense of simplicity likes the check valves- I know how it works.

call me a luddite if you want.

[Father & Son]

Back to the first page of this thread and another question, if using the cv spout in a gravity system would you tap at an angle or level?

Jim

[Mark]

How has been the luck with the check valves?
For the second year I have 2500 of them on a separate line and they quit again at the same time as my old spouts. They all had new spout extensions or new check valves on the line with the check valves. I don't know if they helped when the production was winding down but the line quit just as fast as the rest of them.

[Randy Brutkoski]

Same with me. I have a 4200 tap bush that i have 2 dumping stations. I put 1800 cv's on 1 side of the bush and cst's on the other side, and both parts of the bush shut off on the same day. There are really no difference where the trees are in this bush. Scratching my head wondering what went wrong. I guess when the trees want to shut off there is no persuading them to run a couple of more days, even with the check valves.

[michiganfarmer2]

How has been the luck with the check valves?
For the second year I have 2500 of them on a separate line and they quit again at the same time as my old spouts. They all had new spout extensions or new check valves on the line with the check valves. I don't know if they helped when the production was winding down but the line quit just as fast as the rest of them.

thats interesting. Im gonna try them next year on my 1100 taps on 2 icnhes of vacuum. Ill let you all know how they do

[Mark]

I was at 25 to 27 inches all season. I was planning on changing out 15,000 droplines if they looked good but after two years I don't see the rush. Maybe when I swap out the old tubing but for now I am interested in more taps instead. That would be a guaranteed increase in production.

[Thad Blaisdell]

I too see no difference. They are all still running hard:)

[michiganfarmer2]

I meant 20 inches of vacuum. I type for crap

[michiganfarmer2]

I too see no difference. They are all still running hard:)

thats good to know, cause Im gonna spend the $400 to put them on my 1100 taps, and try them...next year

do you have some tubiing with, and without CV so you can compare?

[Thad Blaisdell]

I have new tubing with 3200 cv. and 4900 on 2 year old line, with cdl Y spouts. I see no difference right now. My cdl spouts are my southern and northern, and cvs east and west, (basically). Our season should be over but they are all running hard today. I do like the stubbies better but unsure about cv's

[danno]

My taps usually run well for 4 weeks, this year, with CV's, they ran well for 6-7 weeks, but the first two weeks were the last two weeks of Feb. when everything was frozen, and overall, we had cool weather this year, so who knows.

I collected more sap this year during runs, but I attribute that from incresasing vac from 16 to 24 this year. Don't think it was the CV's. Made allot more syrup this year - CV's, high vac, good weather, more taps - probably a combo of everything.

[brookledge]

I have 1200 cv's out this year and made just shy of .6 gal per tap. So I'd like to think that using them had something to do with that but I can't prove it.
Keith

[collinsmapleman2012]

i did a little research project through steve childs at cornell. the cv's have consistently had more sap all season. and, after everything else shut down, our cv's kept going for another week.

[maple flats]

I used 550 CV's on medium vacuum (18") for the 2011 season. This was my only vacuum area. The taps did not dry up, but rather kept flowing past the end of the season. I started tapping on Feb 19 and shut the vacuum off April 6. I had no flow after April 4 on my gravity taps which some were being tapped until 3/18.
The CV's are well worth the cost.

[DrTimPerkins]

i did a little research project through steve childs at cornell. the cv's have consistently had more sap all season. and, after everything else shut down, our cv's kept going for another week.

We had three separate studies looking at CV and other things this year. They were all very consistent in their results.

Based upon our research at UVM PMRC and that of Steve Childs (Cornell Maple Program) this year, the order of sap production yield (highest to lowest) seems to be:

Replace all 5/16" lines/spouts/fittings (best).
Replace droplines and use new adapters.
Old droplines with new CV
- old droplines with new stubbies and new CV slightly better than
old droplines with old stubbies and new CV
Old droplines with Silver spouts
Old droplines with new adapters
Old droplines (worst)

Given the cost and labor required to replace droplines, the CV probably produces the largest economic benefit at the lowest cost.

[whalems]

Is there any benefit to using the cv on a gravity system?

[DrTimPerkins]

Is there any benefit to using the cv on a gravity system?

We've not studied it at PMRC. Steve Childs (Cornell Maple Program) has for the past few years. In both cases, he found there as a benefit, although as you might expect, it is not as large as it is under vacuum. This year I think it was something like an 80% increase (from about 4.6 gal/tap to 8.3 gal/tap), which is a gain of about $1.00-1.50/tap.

[tuckermtn]

my CVs quit at the same time as my buckets and gravity with sanitary extensions. The CVs were tapped on Feburary 13th and ran until April 10th. The rest were tapped between March 3rd-8th. My sense is if you are going to tap on the early side, then they might be worth it for the piece of mind that they will run till the end.

[adk1]

listened to Dr. Perkins lecture on the CV's yesterday at Leader. there is alot more to it them most think in order to see the benefit of using them. But in my opnion, they are worth it and I iwll be using them every year

[Mark]

Can you tell us some of what he had to say?

[sapman]

Hopefully the doc will chime in himself. But I'm sure the info is documented somewhere if he will direct you to it. Certainly had a lot of data to present!

[brookledge]

Dr. Perkins, Do you forsee any changes to the cv in the up coming year or will Leader continue making them as they did this yr? I know they changed the plastic this yr as they had curing problems the first yr. Also I noticed a very small percentage of the cvs that I put out this year, the fingers were not competely formed when they were molded and a few of them had no ball in them.
Keith

[adk1]

he didnt really say of there were any changes. some folks complained about how it is difficult to remove the CV adapter from the stubby spout. others said that the wings on the CV adapter were really sharp.

[Dill]

I'm finally getting around to pulling taps this weekend. We've had a week of real warm weather without a freeze, up in the 70s and I'm still finding wet and dripping tap holes. I used the original design CVs leader had a great clearance deal on them.

[DrTimPerkins]

Hopefully the doc will chime in himself. But I'm sure the info is documented somewhere if he will direct you to it. Certainly had a lot of data to present!

The presentation was a preliminary report of this season's results. Sap was still flowing at the time, so couldn't give final results. We're done now (sap turned "buddy", one main section of our woods is about 30% red maples). We collected about 3,000 gallons of sap we had to dump when we (literally) "pulled the plug" on Sunday morning. Sap was (is) still running hard from the CV lines, but not the non-CV lines.

The short version of the story is that CV adapters performed very well this year for us, producing a net profit of $1.74-$7.65 PER TAP compared to other treatments, depending upon how you measure it and the study in question. The ONLY thing that did better was replacement of droplines (tee, drop, stubby, and spout), however the economic benefit of doing that is outweighed by the cost and labor (making the drop and putting it out in the woods) as well as by the fact that you'd have to replace drops EVERY year to get that benefit.

Steve Childs found similar results. He'll be presenting his work at Bascom's Open House in a few weeks.

I have to recalculate all the numbers. At some point the final presentation will be posted and a paper (or two) will come out in the "Maple Digest." Don't ask me to regurgitate the entire story or give all the details here. This simply isn't the place to do it.

[DrTimPerkins]

Dr. Perkins, Do you forsee any changes to the cv in the up coming year or will Leader continue making them as they did this yr?

That is a business decision of Leader's. I have no real input into that aspect of their operation. If paying customers have suggestions, I'd suggest contacting the folks at Leader.

[BradWilson]

Put 300 check valves on 15"-20" of vac (depending on the weather). Also replaced ALL drops, ALL laterals and 80%-85% of main line. Can't tell you how much more sap we yielded from last year, but we made 3 TIMES for syrup.

Put 35 CV's on gravity line and didn't really produce. Changed them over to 5/16" straight spouts (looks like cv just not). Still about the same amount of sap. Very little. Starting to think it was the way I set up the lines.

I set them up like a vac line but with as many taps on the lats as possible. End rings, tight lats and saddles with multi-fittings. Didn't seem to want to run out well. Any help on that would be appreciated.

Anyway, besides being a banner year, even after we stopped the CV's didn't. Looking forward to using them again. I'd say they were worth it. And after talking to Dr. Tim at Leader and learning that just changing the CV is the most affordable upgrade, I'M IN.

[adk1]

Although individual results will vary, what I brought back from Dr. Perkins presentation is that I will have a 10 year tubing replacement plan, where every 10 years I will replace all of my tubing. (small operation). But I will always use the CV adapters.

[Homestead Maple]

I finished boiling for the season last night due to the fact I ran out of fuel. I didn't want to buy anymore fuel oil. My trees ran very well this weekend and even though the sap didn't look very clear, it boiled out to B grade. I probably could have kept going though, because the trees wanted to run. I credit the check valves for the good flows this weekend and the extended season. I tapped the last week of February. This is the first year that I used the check valves. I made 406 gallons on 1,180 taps and would have made more probably but I was without vacuum for a week because the electric motor for my vacuum pump quit and I had to replace it.

[Thad Blaisdell]

Still going here. Check valves are running at the same pace as my CDL Y spouts. My neighbor has 2600 CDL Y spouts and they are running very well too. I averaged roughly .5 gal per tap since 9am. only 1.4 sugar. Made over 100 gallons of medium--off flavor.

[Homestead Maple]

Still going here. Check valves are running at the same pace as my CDL Y spouts. My neighbor has 2600 CDL Y spouts and they are running very well too. I averaged roughly .5 gal per tap since 9am. only 1.4 sugar. Made over 100 gallons of medium--off flavor.

Is it the elevation your at or do you have lots of snow still? I realize the CVs and spouts make some difference.

[adk1]

Last weekend at the Leader Open house Dr. Perkins stated that the sap was still running in Underhill where the research/sugarhouse is located. So yeah, alot of those NE kingdom boys are still hanging on.

[brookledge]

one thing I noticed about the cv this year is it was easier to remove from the new Leader stubby than the other ones I have. I had used all Lapierre stubbies and then this year I needed some more so I tried the new Leader ones and not only did they go on easier since they are tappered on the inside but seperate easier. I will say that after twisting them by hand to pull them my fingers get sore after doing alot
Keith

[gmcooper]

I used all CV's last year and this year on our Vacuum of an average 1100. Both years they ran well after the gravity lines and buckets quit. The vacuum is the first that I tap each year. CV holes look very fresh now even as trees are budding and blossoms are almost out on some of the reds. Very easily paid for themselves. Will be using them next year.
Mark

[maplecrest]

sap was running great right up till i pulled the taps. releaser in top woods with snow still on ground was dumping every 2 minutes yesterday. but was making rope for syrup. impressed with the late season volume. dumped thousands of gallons of sap. just seems a shame to see all that go on the ground. i finished pulling my taps last nite. so i did not have to see the waste anymore.

[adk1]

that would be a good posting. when should you pull your taps and stick to it. seems a waste to keep taking sap from the tree then dumping it. I know that everyone feels bad about doing it that is for sure

[Brian Ryther]

Jeff, Did you wash your lines when you pulled?

[GeneralStark]

sap was running great right up till i pulled the taps. releaser in top woods with snow still on ground was dumping every 2 minutes yesterday. but was making rope for syrup. impressed with the late season volume. dumped thousands of gallons of sap. just seems a shame to see all that go on the ground. i finished pulling my taps last nite. so i did not have to see the waste anymore.

We were still getting sap on vacuum as of yesterday but the sugar content is down to 1%. It does seem weird to pull taps when it is still running.

Why not keep making ropey syrup and barrel it up to sell to the packers?

[GeneralStark]

Still going here. Check valves are running at the same pace as my CDL Y spouts. My neighbor has 2600 CDL Y spouts and they are running very well too. I averaged roughly .5 gal per tap since 9am. only 1.4 sugar. Made over 100 gallons of medium--off flavor.

My neighbor is using check valves and I am using CDL Y spouts. My late season sap flow has surpassed theirs, but I am using brand new tubing and theirs is several seasons old.

[DrTimPerkins]

My neighbor is using check valves and I am using CDL Y spouts. My late season sap flow has surpassed theirs, but I am using brand new tubing and theirs is several seasons old.

Not really a valid comparison. A brand new tubing installation is kind of the "Gold Standard" and will always beat anything else in a side-by-side test (with comparable woods and vacuum level). However....you can't afford to replace all the tubing in your woods every year...it is not economically worth it. CVs will get you pretty close to that, at a far lower cost.

Last season we put new drops with CV versus new drops with CDL clear-straight spouts (CST). CVs produced 5.1 gal more per tap (17.5%) than the CSTs....and that was with the unusual end of the season due to record high temperatures.

This year we compared new drops with CV, versus 2 yr old drop with new CV, versus 8 yr old drops with new CV, vs 3 yr old drops with 3 yr old spouts. The new drops with CV were the best, followed closely by 2 yr with new CV. The 8 yr drops with CV were within 0.8 gal of sap/tap of the 2 yr old.

One common misconception about the CV is that people think they only function to increase very late-season sap flow and get you about 7-10 days more flow. In actuality, the effect begins about mid-season typically. That is when the per day yields start to diverge, and the effect slowly grows until the end of the season.

[DrTimPerkins]

Made over 100 gallons of medium--off flavor.

Thad,

What is the off-flavor, and has it moderated since we've had the colder nights?

[GeneralStark]

Not really a valid comparison. A brand new tubing installation is kind of the "Gold Standard" and will always beat anything else in a side-by-side test (with comparable woods and vacuum level). However....you can't afford to replace all the tubing in your woods every year...it is not economically worth it. CVs will get you pretty close to that, at a far lower cost.

Last season we put new drops with CV versus new drops with CDL clear-straight spouts (CST). CVs produced 5.1 gal more per tap (17.5%) than the CSTs....and that was with the unusual end of the season due to record high temperatures.

This year we compared new drops with CV, versus 2 yr old drop with new CV, versus 8 yr old drops with new CV, vs 3 yr old drops with 3 yr old spouts. The new drops with CV were the best, followed closely by 2 yr with new CV. The 8 yr drops with CV were within 0.8 gal of sap/tap of the 2 yr old.

One common misconception about the CV is that people think they only function to increase very late-season sap flow and get you about 7-10 days more flow. In actuality, the effect begins about mid-season typically. That is when the per day yields start to diverge, and the effect slowly grows until the end of the season.

I understand completely. It seems to me that using CVs is basically a cheaper option that replacing tubing. For me, it didn't make sense to use CVs with brand new tubing as the CDL Y's a .17$/spout.

That said, it may make sense in the future.

[DrTimPerkins]

...it didn't make sense to use CVs with brand new tubing as the CDL Y's a .17$/spout.

Agreed. They are unlikely to provide very much benefit in that case, so the economics of spout cost start to have a larger influence.

[adk1]

after listening to Dr. Perkins analysis/studies on Sat. I understand alot more about tap closure vs new/used tubing/spouts etc..it was very interesting.

[maplecrest]

brian i do not shut vac off until all taps are pulled. no longer run water. the sap in lines go to vinegar and the filters first run smell like vinegar and i wait till it clears up i bit. and rinse the r/o with the first sap then start to consentrate and boil.

[Thad Blaisdell]

Thad,

What is the off-flavor, and has it moderated since we've had the colder nights?

The off flavor is getting worse but since the cold nights it has gotten much easier to filter. What is strange to me is the syrup when hot only has a hint of the off flavor, but when cold it is (getting) very prominent. It is still syrup and boils down well, and is worth something.

[DrTimPerkins]

The off flavor is getting worse but since the cold nights it has gotten much easier to filter. What is strange to me is the syrup when hot only has a hint of the off flavor, but when cold it is (getting) very prominent. It is still syrup and boils down well, and is worth something.

What type of off-flavor is it? Buddy? Ferment?

[Amber Gold]

Thad, I noticed the same thing with mine. It was faint at first, but got much stronger over the next few days after I first noticed it. Flavor was faint when hot, but very noticeable when cold and it had an aftertaste to it which lingered for a bit.

[Russell Lampron]

I noticed a taste like that in the last syrup that I made. It had just a hint of bitterness when hot and first made. After it got cold and sat for a week the bitterness got more noticeable. I am going to try heating it to 235 or 240, dilute it back to density and run it through the filter press again. Hopefully that will make it taste better. It was some of the lightest syrup that I made this season so I don't mind if it darkens to a medium or dark amber color.

[WMF]

What you guys are making is "Bud light". I usually make some at the end of most seasons but not this year.

It can be the worst tasting form of maple syrup there is and will ruin the flavor of any good syrup it is blended with.

Too bad Maple Grove isn't still paying $4 pound for any syrup that will flow out of a drum.

[adk1]

WMF, now that is funny right there:lol: