My first time sugaring and could use some advice

[GCunningham]

Hello to all my new maple making friends out there. I recently caught the bug and I am in the process of setting up my syrup making process. I have never even seen it done other than watching it online, but I have to give it a try and see how it goes. I don't know, I turned 50 this year and a lot of new things interest me all the sudden. Got my first grandson,put in my first garden (believe it or not). Planted fruit trees and started some grape vines. But of all, the maple syrup bug got me bad! I have some questions and I'm sure I'll have more in the next several weeks before the sap starts a flowin. My question is this. The pan I found is an old English flat pan that is in very good shape, no dents or sags but it looks like it hasn't been used in a few years and it is a bit rusted. I'm told I could use Muriatic Acid to clean it, but how? Pour it in and let it set? For how long? Is there a better way? How bout sand blasting? How clean does it have to be Any help would be appreciated. Thanks

[Bucket Head]

Its a tough call when it comes to old tin pans, and tougher when their rusty. I don't have any experience with muriatic acid so I can't say. I suppose sand blasting would work. However, do not sand blast the soldered seams. Don't even scrub them clean. Leave whatever residue is on them there. The solder is leaded and the residue helps to seal the seam. There are other posts on here that explain this.

Do you plan on sugaring for a while? Maybe with grandchildren later on?? It might be worth the small investment of having a local sheetmetal shop make up a pan out of stainless steel. Welded or soldered- and today's solder is lead-free. This way there are no worries. Just a thought. Maybe some others here will comment on how they cleaned up tin pans. Good luck this season!

Steve

[Sugarmaker]

G Cunningmah,
Welcome to the maple syrup process, you will have a lot of fun, and some work.
You will get a lot of advice about acquiring a Stainless welded pan for your arch. No its not mandatory but highly suggested. The English tin pan is soldered in the joints and that solder is most likely a mixture containing some amount of lead.
There are several manufacturs on hear making quality stainless pans. Not cheap but will get you started on the right path.
This doesn't mean you cant use the pan, the choice is yours and there is information on minimizing the exposure time of the syrup to the solder.
If you do decide to use it you can take the extra precaution to have your syrup tested at various labs for lead content with in recommended limits. If that sounds like a lot of effort, well its the only way you can tell if the syrup might be contaminated with lead.
I know this may not have been what you wanted to hear or maybe you already researched it. But part of our duties in this hobby is to inform folks of any potential dangers in this food product.?
As far as cleaning the English tin pan I would suggest good hot soapy water lots of scrubbing (gently on the solder joints) and plenty of rinsing. My neighbor had Older English tin pans and they made some nice light syrup when cleaned up.
Regards,
Chris

[sugarmountain]

The bug will be a full blown virus by spring! put the white vinnegar and water right to it (until you find your next set up). Good hot water and a hard nylon bristle brush after or durring will also work wonders. Good luck and keep asking questions, theres allot of sugarmkers on mapletrader that want to help out people getting started!

[Haynes Forest Products]

GCunningham If you decide to use the acid or sandblasting when your done take it out in the back yard and use it as a back stop for sighting in your deer rifle:o DO NOT SANDBLAST OR USE ACID. Brush clean with a plastic bristle brush or Scotch Brite pad (grey). Stay away from the solder and have fun. You DO know why your having these thoughts at your age (50) I wonder what my life would be like today if when I went thru what your going thru if I planted a few more fruit trees and less WILD OATs:lol::emb:

[Flat47]

Are you sure that tin pan is rusty - or has is got a layer of dark sugar sand built up in it? Tins pans will get a brownish tinge to them from years of niter building up and not being scrubbed like was stated above. Those thick build ups are tough to scrub off (and really no need to with a tin pan), so don't bother scrubbing. Inspect it and feel it. Rust feels like sand paper to touch and will leave rusty grit on your fingers after you run your fingers across it. Niter feels like a brown paper bag and won't leave much of anything on your fingers after rubbing it.

Like was said before, stainlesss is the most desireable, but not required. Just be safe. And above all - have fun!

Welcome to the 'Trader!

[3rdgen.maple]

Just the words grandchildren, tin pan and lead solder would concern me. What size pan are you trying to get started with? I personally cannot recomend getting started on the right track and skipping all the shortcuts. Like using trash cans for storage and such. It is hard to break old habits once a person gets going down that road. You can find some pretty cheap stainless pans even on ebay. Cheap yeah I know but when it comes to kids and lead and non-food grade practices its a cheap insurance policy. I have a set of 5 pans that are stainless Steel that are soldered and the seams tested positive for lead. I wont even sell them or give the away. They got used for a couple years by my grandfather and it just might be what is wrong with me today lol.

[peckfarm]

Would it make sense to melt that solder and have the pans welded? If you have 4 of them you could even give it try yourself...then sell them...just a cheep Vermonter's thinking. As for the english tin, we had a semi-raised pan that looked great to start very little rust. When a little water was added to clean the dust, holes began to emerge in the corners. I would find out if it even holds water first.

[Haynes Forest Products]

If someone starts a thread on how is the best way to get solder out of all the joints so that some poor fool could spend weeks trying to resolder them with lead free solder we should have them contact Patric P.:lol:

[3rdgen.maple]

lol good one Haynes. Im not spending 10 seconds on trying to resolder those pans they can sit in the rafters forever.

[mike z]

How many taps are you thinking about for this year? How many more trees are available for tapping? Those kids you refered to earlier, they got strong backs? They'll have as much fun being out there as you. The maple world is a sweet place to be. You're going to feel like Willy Wonka. And it never goes away. If you like to tinker, (and I bet you do) you can make most of the things neccesary to start out. Otherwise you'll need to open your pocket book some. Usually, it's a little of both.

[sugarmountain]

I wonder how much lead is in a good bushel of potatoes? any one ever find any statistics on the ppm of sub-soil vegetables vs say a gallon of maple syrup boiled with old school pans? Not complaining just wondering. I am sure all the equipment dealers have some crazy stats. but thats probably a no brainer.:o:

[DrTimPerkins]

...any one ever find any statistics on the ppm of sub-soil vegetables vs say a gallon of maple syrup boiled with old school pans?

Depends on where you're growing those potatos (for those who subscribe to the non-Dan Quale way of spelling :) )...and how well you wash them (or peel them) before you eat them. If you're not growing them right next to the highway (roadsides have high lead due to addition to gasoline for decades), and wash or peel them thoroughly, there is actually very little lead in potatos.

Yes, we've done exhaustive literature reviews of lead contamination in all types of food products. Maple is neither the highest, nor the lowest.

Realistially however, this argument holds no water with regulators. Hard to say...yes, we're adding lead to syrup, but it still doesn't have as much lead as those other guys growing ______. The bottom line is that lead is not in maple sap, and doesn't need to be in maple syrup if proper care is taken to limit the exposure of sap and syrup to lead-containing materials.

[Haynes Forest Products]

Good one Doc I like the humor.......turns out it can be spelled both ways just read about them in Wikipedia:lol: Why do the skins have more lead when its underground as it grows. Is it a contact with the soil and will scrubbing reduce the amount. Will massive amounts of butter salt and pepper cause the lead levels to rise? What about sour cream?

[DrTimPerkins]

Why do the skins have more lead when its underground as it grows. Is it a contact with the soil and will scrubbing reduce the amount.

Most soil contains some amount of lead. Some soils have far more lead than others. Busy roadsides have plenty.

Scrub any soil off and most of the lead is removed. Most plants don't take up any appreciable amount of lead, and have mechanisms to exclude it (it isn't good for them either).


Will massive amounts of butter salt and pepper cause the lead levels to rise? What about sour cream?

No effect on lead, but butter and sour cream will raise your cholesterol and salt will raise your blood pressure. :(

[S Culver]

Being a building contractor I was faced with the new EPA lead rules as of April 22nd and endured their 10 hour training couse. That was 8 hrs of training and 2 hrs of arguing about it. The one test that was certified for paint was Lead Check by Homax. This was a simple swab test kit available at Home Depot for about $5.00 in the paint dept. I am not sure on its ppm limits but as I remember they were pretty small. I am not sure if this would help give people the heads up on the lead solder. I do not have any pans to try this on so someone else is going to have to try this to see if it works.

The test kit on the back says for Plumbing

First clean up the joint to be tested with a brillo pad or sand paper. Next break the ampule and moisten the swab. Then brush the wet swab on the area. If the swab comes back red you have lead present.

I hope some one can try this as it could be an easy way to test once and for all for the lead. Think of it every time you go look at any equipment you could have a $ 5.00 test with you that would give you a good answer as to what was really in there.:o:cry:

This could get long. We might need a different thread for this

[sugarmountain]

Wow, we beet the #*%$ out of that one! I can definetly see the importance of eliminating lead whenever possible but it seems like people get kinda crazy with it. We dont want to mention off gassing do we? seems like big buisness is selling allot of plastic these days, them sap buckets with all that zink and lead are so bad for us. I think money may be a motivator?:rolleyes: "beet"

[DrTimPerkins]

The one test that was certified for paint was Lead Check by Homax. This was a simple swab test kit available at Home Depot for about $5.00 in the paint dept.

These swab kits are absolutely fine to determine whether pans are lead-soldered or not.

[GCunningham]

I never expected all the feedback to come back so quick....I can see I came to the right place to get the answers to all my questions. The pan I'm planning on using is 2x3 English tin and now that one of you guys brought it to my attention, maybe it's not even rust. It does look more like the leftover residue from previous use. I wil try the vinegar and water and some good old elbow grease and see what happens. I did find out that it is not Muriatic acid, it's pipe acid that the farmers use to clean thier milking equiptment. As some of you also implied, maybe I should just open my pocket book and buy a stainless pan. I did consider spending the loot on one but never actually seeing this process and just deciding a couple months ago to give it a try, I was pretty hesitant on going through with it. I picked this pan up for $30 on Craigslist and my home made evaporator cost me $50 to build myself out of an old fuel oil drum. I found 50 taps with hoses for $40 and I'm using milk jugs for collecting. I built my sugar shack out of slab wood and some leftover lumber from another project and some windows from an old farmhouse (freebees) so I have about $100 in it. After listening to all you guys I can't wait till the sap starts flowing and I can give it a try. Who knows, maybe this will turn into another family tradition.

[Sugarmaker]

GCunningham,
First of all I'm glad we didn't scare you away! Remember these maple folks have all this pent up energy that is about ready to explode in 60 days ( more or less) and the trader is a good place to vent some steam. ( ok there was a pun intended) I like your approach. Low cost and within reason for the first year. Try to clean the pan and all the equipment touching the sap as clean as you can get them, have some wood ready and enjoy the maple process. My guess you will be like a little kid in a candy store this spring. Many of your questions can be answered in the North American Maple Syrup Producers Manual. Get the hard bound addition!
Regards,
Chris

[3rdgen.maple]

Gc it sounds like you are pretty much starting out the same way most of us have. What ever path you take you and your family will have fun im sure. It is a hobby that never stops growing. I personally didnt mean to sound harsh or as sugarmaker said "vent some steam" lol. It is your choice how you want to approach this and it can be intimidating at first. It just might not be a bad idea to try it out on a 30 dollar pan. If you mess up your only out 30 bucks right? But Like said by all dont get crazy cleaning up those soldered seams. Next thing you need to do is get some catalogs from manufactures so you can really get your mind wondering and confused at all the stuff out there. Youtube has some pretty good videos you can watch of producers of all sizes making syrup. Also I yet to meet a sugarmaker who wouldnt invite a guy in to check out how things work. Some great beginner books out there as well and of course the trader to help along the way. Just remember no question is a dumb one because at some point in our life we all had the same question. Oh and one other thing no matter how many times Haynes tells you a toilet brush is food grade dont believe it :D

[Slatebelt*Pa*Tapper]

GCunningham, take things slow and get a feel for it, don't jump into to quick. the syrup is sweet but jumping into to fast and big can make things bitter.

Ive been doing it for several years and find that keeping things simple and small hobbyish like work best for my family and me.

clean your pan up as best you can and see how the first year goes. get a good feel for it. took me several years(6) till i finally bought a small hobby evap and built a small shack, my tree numbers haven't grown and I'm still working with the same amount of taps my body will let me handle.

[sugarmountain]

Everone starts somewhere! have fun and the worst thing is when you start getting the catalogs from leader, cdl, lappiere etc. Thats when it gets interesting!